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You're reading way too much into a shot done for dramatic effect. The commercial is not saying all men are bed as much as they are pointing out the power of an individual that stands up. That is kind of lost when you have half the men run into to stop the fight.Of course it is...the guy breaking up the fight was portrayed as the "outlier" among a see of neanderthals standing around with their arms folded, all with the same dumb look on their face.
Agreed...but the implication of that very premise is that men currently aren't doing a good job of speaking up...or the ones that do are in the minority, a tiny beacon among as sea of "toxic masculinity"
See the picture above.
Now, if the scene had been 2-3 guys cheering on the kids fighting, and 4-5 breaking it up and saying "c'mon, find some other way to play...that's not how you treat people" then it wouldn't have been a problem.
The idea conveyed was "see, <most men who are bad and don't help>, be like the 10% that do!"
You're reading way too much into a shot done for dramatic effect. The commercial is not saying all men are bed as much as they are pointing out the power of an individual that stands up. That is kind of lost when you have half the men run into to stop the fight.
That's another specious argument. The ad is meant to speak to an individual, not convey ratios. Again, the ad is showing how one person can do something, which is lost when you have a team of people working together. The ad is not about teamwork, it is about what you can do as an individual. You're complaining about something that is not even communicated, reading into something that is not there (i.e., a survey of the percentage of men that believe a certain thing). Again, there is certain sense of irony when one of your complaints is that people are reading too much into the behavior of men catcalling....if conveying the ratio accurately causes "the message to be lost", then what does that say about the message?
Clearly the message was "this is such a huge issue that's gotten so bad that we, as a razor company, have to speak up in an ad".
Apparently, since they had to exaggerate for effect, they realize that "2 out of every 10 guys being idiots who need to update their social views" doesn't qualify as being "a crisis of toxic masculinity"
If depicting reality conflicts with a message they're trying to convey, then that should be a red flag about the message.
Saying "C'mon smile" or "Nice!" when a woman walks by is hardly a "comment of a sexual nature"
With these non-definitive concepts like "I find XYZ harassing" or "I think behavior XYZ is toxic". It's not so much that those concepts exists, but that a certain faction/group/etc... feels as if they get to decide where everyone else should set the bar...and it's always 100% driven by where they (and their social groups) set the bar.
The terms is tongue in cheek to define people who are over-the-top PC and find reasons to get offended about everything.
Legitimate activists for social justice are a-ok in my book.
For instance, Rosa Parks get's my respect
Leaders of the women's' suffrage movement get my respect
People who fought for marriage equality get my respect
These folks do not:
View attachment 249551
This meme kind of describes my view with regards to making the distinction between the stereotypical "social justice warrior" and a social justice activist.
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...if conveying the ratio accurately causes "the message to be lost", then what does that say about the message?
Clearly the message was "this is such a huge issue that's gotten so bad that we, as a razor company, have to speak up in an ad".
Apparently, since they had to exaggerate for effect, they realize that "2 out of every 10 guys being idiots who need to update their social views" doesn't qualify as being "a crisis of toxic masculinity"
If depicting reality conflicts with a message they're trying to convey, then that should be a red flag about the message.
"C'mon smile" says: I get to tell you what to do with your body. "Nice!" is directly a comment on her body. Both are a power play with sexual overtones.
In certain places, women can’t leave the house without being catcalled or constantly approached. I’m very good at “handling” it, but why did I have to go through that every day in my 20’s living in Florida?
Smiles are a benefit for the observer, not the person being observed.
There is a sense that some feel that women have a responsibility for being generally attractive to men ...
I get to set my bar. You get to set your bar. The problem is that often when women set their bar, men just ignore it...
Male eating disorders are not ignored. And quite frankly, if we're talking about men having to achieve unattainable body images, who is responsible for promoting that body image? The reason why such issues are not discussed is more on account of toxic masculinity than women promoting it.Male eating disorders are just as common as female ones as a result of needing to look a certain way, but it doesn't get the same label as it's viewed as some sort of dietary/workout regimen when guys do it.
The locker room at my gym is an anthropological world of wonders. Inside, you’ll find every type of body imaginable on display in its full glory. There are older sagging bodies, young and toned ones, and everything in between.
In the adult world, men’s bodies go largely unremarked upon, age and maturity having given most of us a certain comfort level with the skin we inhabit and an understanding of the boundaries of personal space. But in high school and college locker rooms, there’s no flaw or irregularity that can’t be exaggerated into a joke or a put-down. The weak bodies are called out, the less-developed muscles are laughed at, and for the most part, boys and young men all go along with it. It’s just how things are. It was the case when I was young, and based on my interviews with several young men, it’s no less true now.
Of course.
Given the reasons I cited - that just about every woman has been threatened, groped, followed by men when out and about in public - then yes, I think it's reasonable.
I don't believe I made a blanket condemnation. I believe that I did indicate that for many women, this kind of behaviour is unwelcome and frightening.
There is a link.
I've done a lot of work in primary prevention of domestic violence. Almost all men who commit domestic violence have three things in common; they believe themselves superior to women with a right to control women (a belief in gender hierarchy), they find violence acceptable, and they hold to fairly rigid gender roles/stereotypes. So primary prevention aims at breaking down those beliefs and attitudes which - in the minds of these men - legitimate their actions.
I'd say that's a perfect example of "toxic masculinity."
I can't speak to American statistics, because our cultural situation is very different here.
But I think it is quite plausible that different cultures might have more or less toxic ideas about masculinity. That's cultural, and changeable, it's not innate and it's not directly related to race.
Possibly. It all depends. But I do find yelling particularly intimidating; again, it's a display of power.
You don't get it at all.
Since I was a teenager, I've been followed, threatened, yelled at, harassed, etc etc etc routinely. I can't just walk wherever I want in safety. This is true for just about all women.
We know we're not safe. We know women get killed coming home from the train, or in a park, or whatever. We know we get hit. Raped. All the rest. This story is about a woman raped and murdered in my city only days ago. https://www.theage.com.au/national/...-murder-of-aiia-maasarwe-20190119-p50sd6.html
The constant risk of this is the fabric of our daily lives. Where will I park, where will I walk, how will I get there, who will I go with, so that I can maybe feel a little more safe?
So when some entitled man thinks he has the right to touch, to follow, to yell, to make objectifying comments, yes I perceive that as a threat. Because the reality is, I'm at risk.
Now the 6'3" guy can approach me in a way that's not threatening. Of course he can. But it's probably not going to be by following me down the street!
Beg to differ... no, it's not all men, but just about every single woman has experienced that kind of bad behaviour.
Like I said, this pervasive threat is part of the fabric of our lives.
If just about every man had that kind of experience of women, we'd have similar reason for that kind of conversation.
Actually, lots of protests ... by, perhaps, inexperienced protesters. I've protested/boycotted certain establishments for years. I'm pretty sure that they didn't notice ...
Protesters often change strategies. MLK did, as well ...
cat calling
noun a shrill whistle or shout of disapproval, typically one made at a public meeting or performance. • a loud whistle or a comment of a sexual nature made by a man to a passing woman.
verb [no object] make a whistle, shout, or comment of a sexual nature to a woman passing by: they were fired for catcalling at women.
No. No it can't.
But, if someone were to say "there's too many women on this board of directors, we need to fire a few of them and get some men in there so that it's a 50/50 split", it would immediately be decried as "patriarchy running wild" and "Misogyny off the scale" and "see, men just can't handle it when women are in the position of power".
I would agree with that statement...which is why I'm not crazy about the ad.
If something's not automatically wrong, then it doesn't require a cultural mandate that "if you're a 'good' man, the expectation is you should step in to stop other men from doing it, and openly admit that it's the result of a culture of toxic masculinity"
If the actions being depicted were ones that fell in the category of "automatically wrong", then I'd have no problem it.
"C'mon, smile" is harassment. Why the everloving f should women ever be commanded to do anything by a stranger on the street. The idea that a man should think that's perfectly OK is toxic.
*says the woman who is very content with her resting b face, thank you very much, and doesn't think anyone should be commenting on her appearance or demeanor when minding her own business. Stop interrupting women.
Chris Rock has a bit about how every nice thing a guy does for a woman is a sexual advance. "Let me get that door for you... how about some [explitive deleted]?". The problem with what you just said though is that no one said guys shouldn't try to sleep with women, you were responding to a conversation about the definition of catcalling, and people have been saying catcalling is wrong because it invokes a negative emotional response. You can't extrapolate that to say people are against all sexual advances.
A woman feeling intimidated in a catcalling situation is just a conditioned response to people hollering at her. It doesn't matter if you're the sweetest guy in the world, and the words you choose are completely innocuous. So many ladies have had so many negative experiences with guys shouting at them on the street that the underlying similarities in all catcalling situations cause the same negative reaction.
One of the oldest experiments in behavioral psychology was a group of guys making some poor little orphan afraid of a bunny rabbit. They gave him a fluffy white bunny, startled the bejeebers out of him, and then he was afraid of bunnies. But that's not all. They found out he was afraid of all white fluffy things. One of the psychologists put on a Santa beard, and he was terrified of that. Sadly, the first kid they traumatized was adopted before they "fixed" him, so he was screwed up for life. But they were able to reverse it on a later kid.
The moral of that story is that any situation involving a strange man suddenly talking to a woman in public is going to invoke that negative emotional response from all the times that someone was being a jerk about it. It doesn't matter that most men are nice fellows. There are enough men that aren't nice fellows out there to have created this negative emotional response in the vast majority of women.
And sure, it may be irrational to feel afraid in those situations because they very rarely lead to actual physical violence, but that doesn't matter. It's likely that ladies will feel afraid, irrationally or no, so don't do things that will likely make ladies feel afraid. I tell all sorts of jokes, even really dark humor. But I don't just blurt out rape jokes to just anyone, even though there's zero risk of being raped by me, it's still going to invoke a negative emotional response in a lot of people.
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