Real languages or not.

[Sammy-San]

Is the Klingon language fully realized, or just a handful of disconnected phrases?

glossolalia isnt biblical-tongues were real languages-japanese, italian. I don't think kids hearin those sounds from childhood would extrapolate the same meaning if any from it.

Tolkein studied Finnish and welsh and morphed it for elvish-even italian and English aren't exactly the same as what the Lord created at Babel but they are real. Italian and Spanish couldnt have been what God created at the Tower of Babel because they are both different language than Latin

It calls Elvish more of a sketch of a real language. Somebody called Klingon gibberish.

Is the Klingon language fully realized, or just a handful of disconnected phrases?

To follow up, it is a fully realized, constructed language , like esperanto or loglan. Mark Okrand, a linguist, was hired by Paramount to create it for the movies, starting with Star Trek III.

 

[Radagast]

I don't think kids hearin those sounds from childhood would extrapolate the same meaning if any from it.

I didn't quite understand that, but Klingon is a genuine constructed language, like Esperanto or modern Hebrew.

If you let children grow up in a constructed language (like modern Hebrew) it does undergo considerable change. In that sense, a living language is different from a purely constructed one.

Italian and English aren't exactly the same as what the Lord created at Babel but they are real.

English didn't exist at Babel. Six-hundred-year-old English one can just barely read:

Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open yë
(So priketh hem Nature in hir corages);
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages
And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
And specially from every shires ende
Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,
The hooly blisful martir for to seke
That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seeke.

A thousand years old, and it's a different language:

Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena⁠in gēar-dagum ⁠
þēod-cyninga⁠þrym gefrūnon,
hū ðā æþelingas⁠ell en fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scēfing⁠sceaþena þrēatum,
monegum mǣgþum⁠meodo-setla oftēah.
Egsode eorl,⁠syððan ǣrest wearð
fēa-sceaft funden;⁠hē þæs frōfre gebād,
wēox under wolcnum,⁠weorð-myndum þāh,
oð þæt him ǣghwylc⁠ þāra ymb-sittendra
ofer hron-rāde⁠hȳran scolde,
gomban gyldan;⁠þæt wæs gōd cyning.
Ðǣm eafera wæs⁠æfter cenned
geong in geardum,⁠þone God sende
folce tō frōfre;⁠fyren-ðearfe ongeat,
þæt hīe ǣr drugon⁠aldor-lēase
lange hwīle.⁠Him þæs Līf-frēa,
wuldres Wealdend,⁠worold-āre forgeaf;
Bēowulf wæs brēme⁠(blǣd wīde sprang),
Scyldes eafera⁠Scede-landum in.

 

[Sammy-San]

I didn't understand that, but Klingon is a genuine constructed language, like Esperanto or modern Hebrew.

If you let children grow up in a constructed language (like modern Hebrew) it does undergo considerable change. In that sense, a living language is different from a purely constructed one.



English didn't exist at Babel. Six-hundred-year-old English one can just barely read:

Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open yë
(So priketh hem Nature in hir corages);
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages
And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
And specially from every shires ende
Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,
The hooly blisful martir for to seke
That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seeke.

A thousand years old, and it's really a different language:

Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena⁠in gēar-dagum ⁠
þēod-cyninga⁠þrym gefrūnon,
hū ðā æþelingas⁠ell en fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scēfing⁠sceaþena þrēatum,
monegum mǣgþum⁠meodo-setla oftēah.
Egsode eorl,⁠syððan ǣrest wearð
fēa-sceaft funden;⁠hē þæs frōfre gebād,
wēox under wolcnum,⁠weorð-myndum þāh,
oð þæt him ǣghwylc⁠ þāra ymb-sittendra
ofer hron-rāde⁠hȳran scolde,
gomban gyldan;⁠þæt wæs gōd cyning.
Ðǣm eafera wæs⁠æfter cenned
geong in geardum,⁠þone God sende
folce tō frōfre;⁠fyren-ðearfe ongeat,
þæt hīe ǣr drugon⁠aldor-lēase
lange hwīle.⁠Him þæs Līf-frēa,
wuldres Wealdend,⁠worold-āre forgeaf;
Bēowulf wæs brēme⁠(blǣd wīde sprang),
Scyldes eafera⁠Scede-landum in.

People say glossolalia isnt a language.

 

[Radagast]

People say glossolalia isnt a language.

It's not.

 

[Sammy-San]

It's not.

Languages have a certain power/emotion and symmetry to the sounds, like music.

Why do you think Klingon is as real as English? Like I could learn Klingon and speak it with a possible future kid and it would be as if I spoke English.

 

[Radagast]

Languages have a certain power/emotion and symmetry to the sounds, like music.

A language need not be "beautiful," but a language must communicate meaning.

Why do you think Klingon is as real as English?

Klingon is real because you can communicate meaning in it.

It's not a living language, though. If you established a Klingon-speaking colony on an island somewhere, the language would change substantially, just as modern Hebrew has done.

Out of curiosity, do you speak a language other than English? These things make more sense if you're already bilingual.

 

[Sammy-San]

A language need not be "beautiful," but a language must communicate meaning.



Klingon is real because you can communicate meaning in it.

It's not a living language, though. If you established a Klingon-speaking colony on an island somewhere, the language would change substantially, just as modern Hebrew has done.

Out of curiosity, do you speak a language other than English? These things make more sense if you're already bilingual.

There's times I hear people speak Italian and it doesn't flow, but I remember a day I held a conversation with my uncle, where I asked some questions on what certain words meant.

I studied italian and had some childhood exposure to it but it wasnt like my parents spoke it all the time to me.

 

[Sammy-San]

I didn't quite understand that, but Klingon is a genuine constructed language, like Esperanto or modern Hebrew.

If you let children grow up in a constructed language (like modern Hebrew) it does undergo considerable change. In that sense, a living language is different from a purely constructed one.



English didn't exist at Babel. Six-hundred-year-old English one can just barely read:

Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open yë
(So priketh hem Nature in hir corages);
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages
And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
And specially from every shires ende
Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,
The hooly blisful martir for to seke
That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seeke.

A thousand years old, and it's a different language:

Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena⁠in gēar-dagum ⁠
þēod-cyninga⁠þrym gefrūnon,
hū ðā æþelingas⁠ell en fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scēfing⁠sceaþena þrēatum,
monegum mǣgþum⁠meodo-setla oftēah.
Egsode eorl,⁠syððan ǣrest wearð
fēa-sceaft funden;⁠hē þæs frōfre gebād,
wēox under wolcnum,⁠weorð-myndum þāh,
oð þæt him ǣghwylc⁠ þāra ymb-sittendra
ofer hron-rāde⁠hȳran scolde,
gomban gyldan;⁠þæt wæs gōd cyning.
Ðǣm eafera wæs⁠æfter cenned
geong in geardum,⁠þone God sende
folce tō frōfre;⁠fyren-ðearfe ongeat,
þæt hīe ǣr drugon⁠aldor-lēase
lange hwīle.⁠Him þæs Līf-frēa,
wuldres Wealdend,⁠worold-āre forgeaf;
Bēowulf wæs brēme⁠(blǣd wīde sprang),
Scyldes eafera⁠Scede-landum in.

This conlag is gibberish.Why is this game in GIBBIRISH? - Okami Message Board for PlayStation 2 - Page 2 - GameFAQs

 

[Sammy-San]

A language need not be "beautiful," but a language must communicate meaning.



Klingon is real because you can communicate meaning in it.

It's not a living language, though. If you established a Klingon-speaking colony on an island somewhere, the language would change substantially, just as modern Hebrew has done.

Out of curiosity, do you speak a language other than English? These things make more sense if you're already bilingual.

What makes Dothraki and Navi real languages then?

 

[Sammy-San]

I didn't quite understand that, but Klingon is a genuine constructed language, like Esperanto or modern Hebrew.

If you let children grow up in a constructed language (like modern Hebrew) it does undergo considerable change. In that sense, a living language is different from a purely constructed one.



English didn't exist at Babel. Six-hundred-year-old English one can just barely read:

Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open yë
(So priketh hem Nature in hir corages);
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages
And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
And specially from every shires ende
Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,
The hooly blisful martir for to seke
That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seeke.

A thousand years old, and it's a different language:

Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena⁠in gēar-dagum ⁠
þēod-cyninga⁠þrym gefrūnon,
hū ðā æþelingas⁠ell en fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scēfing⁠sceaþena þrēatum,
monegum mǣgþum⁠meodo-setla oftēah.
Egsode eorl,⁠syððan ǣrest wearð
fēa-sceaft funden;⁠hē þæs frōfre gebād,
wēox under wolcnum,⁠weorð-myndum þāh,
oð þæt him ǣghwylc⁠ þāra ymb-sittendra
ofer hron-rāde⁠hȳran scolde,
gomban gyldan;⁠þæt wæs gōd cyning.
Ðǣm eafera wæs⁠æfter cenned
geong in geardum,⁠þone God sende
folce tō frōfre;⁠fyren-ðearfe ongeat,
þæt hīe ǣr drugon⁠aldor-lēase
lange hwīle.⁠Him þæs Līf-frēa,
wuldres Wealdend,⁠worold-āre forgeaf;
Bēowulf wæs brēme⁠(blǣd wīde sprang),
Scyldes eafera⁠Scede-landum in.

this calls elvish a sketch of a real langauge.

 

[Sammy-San]

I didn't quite understand that, but Klingon is a genuine constructed language, like Esperanto or modern Hebrew.

If you let children grow up in a constructed language (like modern Hebrew) it does undergo considerable change. In that sense, a living language is different from a purely constructed one.



English didn't exist at Babel. Six-hundred-year-old English one can just barely read:

Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open yë
(So priketh hem Nature in hir corages);
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages
And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
And specially from every shires ende
Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,
The hooly blisful martir for to seke
That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seeke.

A thousand years old, and it's a different language:

Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena⁠in gēar-dagum ⁠
þēod-cyninga⁠þrym gefrūnon,
hū ðā æþelingas⁠ell en fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scēfing⁠sceaþena þrēatum,
monegum mǣgþum⁠meodo-setla oftēah.
Egsode eorl,⁠syððan ǣrest wearð
fēa-sceaft funden;⁠hē þæs frōfre gebād,
wēox under wolcnum,⁠weorð-myndum þāh,
oð þæt him ǣghwylc⁠ þāra ymb-sittendra
ofer hron-rāde⁠hȳran scolde,
gomban gyldan;⁠þæt wæs gōd cyning.
Ðǣm eafera wæs⁠æfter cenned
geong in geardum,⁠þone God sende
folce tō frōfre;⁠fyren-ðearfe ongeat,
þæt hīe ǣr drugon⁠aldor-lēase
lange hwīle.⁠Him þæs Līf-frēa,
wuldres Wealdend,⁠worold-āre forgeaf;
Bēowulf wæs brēme⁠(blǣd wīde sprang),
Scyldes eafera⁠Scede-landum in.

What do you think Elvish is a sketch of a real language means? Its a mixture of gibberish and real sounds with power?

So how would Tolkein being a linguist give him the knowledge of the power behind certain sounds that children recognize? Elvish might have some gibberish in it. Same with Klingon. Is the Klingon language fully realized, or just a handful of disconnected phrases?
A Man Once Tried to Raise His Son as a Native Speaker in Klingon

 

[Sammy-San]

I didn't quite understand that, but Klingon is a genuine constructed language, like Esperanto or modern Hebrew.

If you let children grow up in a constructed language (like modern Hebrew) it does undergo considerable change. In that sense, a living language is different from a purely constructed one.



English didn't exist at Babel. Six-hundred-year-old English one can just barely read:

Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open yë
(So priketh hem Nature in hir corages);
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages
And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
And specially from every shires ende
Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,
The hooly blisful martir for to seke
That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seeke.

A thousand years old, and it's a different language:

Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena⁠in gēar-dagum ⁠
þēod-cyninga⁠þrym gefrūnon,
hū ðā æþelingas⁠ell en fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scēfing⁠sceaþena þrēatum,
monegum mǣgþum⁠meodo-setla oftēah.
Egsode eorl,⁠syððan ǣrest wearð
fēa-sceaft funden;⁠hē þæs frōfre gebād,
wēox under wolcnum,⁠weorð-myndum þāh,
oð þæt him ǣghwylc⁠ þāra ymb-sittendra
ofer hron-rāde⁠hȳran scolde,
gomban gyldan;⁠þæt wæs gōd cyning.
Ðǣm eafera wæs⁠æfter cenned
geong in geardum,⁠þone God sende
folce tō frōfre;⁠fyren-ðearfe ongeat,
þæt hīe ǣr drugon⁠aldor-lēase
lange hwīle.⁠Him þæs Līf-frēa,
wuldres Wealdend,⁠worold-āre forgeaf;
Bēowulf wæs brēme⁠(blǣd wīde sprang),
Scyldes eafera⁠Scede-landum in.

I remember in the past I was saying stuff akin to, " it's made up i don't understand it" (elvish)

 

[Knee V]

While this is not scientific by any means - purely subjective on my own part - I draw my own personal distinction between language and what I consider to be "word-code". The difference between languages, whether living or conlangs, and word-codes, in my estimation, is the presence or absence of the language being part of a cultural tradition of a living community of speakers, even if they are only imaginary living speakers (Klingons speak Klingon, Elves speak Elvish, etc). A language like Esperanto, for example, is one that I put into the category of "word-code". While it is composed of words that convey real meaning, and which can be both written and spoken, it lacks a living tradition, even an imaginary living tradition. It is not part of any culture, and is maintained by an international congress. Even those who speak Esperanto as a first language, by and large, speak it as one of two or more first languages, and not as a sole first language. If there are any people who speak Esperanto as their sole language, they are too few to matter to this principle. It is a pattern of roots, prefixes, and suffixes, and, in my humble opinion, nothing more and nothing less, as is the case, in my humble opinion, of any other conlang that lacks a real or fictional cultural context.