Glossolalia (speaking in tongues) and a theory on what really happened at Pentecost?

[The Righterzpen]

It is interesting that Calvin said in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 14, that tongues and prophecy declined because of misuse and that these gifts ended up being discredited and so believers of the time did not seek for them so that they were not identified with the misuse. He definitely did not say that they declined and ceased through some decree of God that they cease after the Apostolic age. I studied the Reformation while doing my MDiv, and I am not sure whether Luther was cessationist or not. I think he did report that some got a bit ethusiastic and spoke some unusual languages, but don't quote me on that. John Wesley reported that he heard of some who "gobbled like geese", which is not surprising because I have heard some speech in tongues that sounded just like that.

There have been movements over the centuries that have been very charismatic in nature, and because the only record we have of them is through the Roman Catholic Church's court transcripts, so we might have to read between the lines to determine whether they were true believers or not. Because the RCC were enemies to any movements that would not acknowledge the Pope, then I wouldn't trust any conclusions the RCC would have concerning them. Most of the literature of these movements were destroyed so we don't really know what they were about and whether they displayed charismatic gifts or not.

What we can't discount are the many testimonies of people in Pentecostal churches speaking what sounded like "Glossalalia" (or gibberish as you say), and yet people in those gatherings have heard their own native languages being spoken. I had a friend in a prayer meeting at my church who spoke in tongues and a Ghanaian visitor heard him praising God in his own rural village dialect, and I know that my friend was hardly able to express himself in English let alone an African rural village dialect!

I have often travelled on the bus to work with people speaking Hindi and Mandarin Chinese, and both languages sounded like gibberish to me, and yet they understood each other perfectly. Just because a language sounds like gibberish doesn't mean that it actually is.

Many cessationists have a blind spot when it comes to tongues which causes them to discount these many testimonies of people speaking in tongues and being understood. I think it was St Francis of Assisi who had the experience of needing to share the Gospel with a Frenchman and after asking the Lord for help, started speaking in a language by faith and found that the Frenchman replied in the same language. St Francis discovered that he was speaking in French to the person, a language he had never learned. There are many testimonies especially during the early days of the Pentecostal movement, where people who had never learned a language, actually spoke it and was understood. There is the testimony of a woman who prayed for the Italian language so she could share the Gospel with those in the Italian section of her city, and was given the language and was able to speak it for the rest of her life.

These are testimonies that I have read about in my extensive reading over the years, and it would be no point trying to actually cite them in the literature; anyway, you probably wouldn't believe if I was able to.

I know the stories about some early Pentecostals thinking they could go to India, China and Japan and give the Gospel in tongues, and came back home disappointed and disillusioned because it didn't work for them. There are over enthusiastic people in all religious movements to do things out of presumption instead of faith.

Yes, lots of hearsay over the years; (even centuries) but no firm verifiable documentation on any of it. Thus why what we read of Calvin, Wesley or Luther. That yeah, they heard rumors in their day too; but no verification. None had ever stated that they'd witnessed anything that they'd categorize as a Biblical miracle.

Which this was not the case with the apostles and Christ. We know this because Nicodemus who was an elder of the Sanhedrin said to Jesus. "We know you come from God; (We know you are the Messiah.) because no one could do what you do if God were not with him." And in that right there; Nicodemus admits that the rulers of Israel KNEW Jesus was the Messiah. And because they knew he was the Messiah on account of having witnessed what he was capable of doing; is why they'd committed blasphemy against the Spirit.

Imagine the chaos that would ensue if Jesus's earthly ministry happened in our day. He'd have more paparazzi than all of Hollywood combined. There was no question what he was capable of. It was witnessed and documented. So it's not that the unbelievers were seeking proof. (They had that!) They were flat out lying when they'd accuse him of blasphemy. Notice they never said his miracles were fake! They accused him of moral failings, breaking the law and committing blasphemy. But they never accused him of fake miracles!

He healed people who had spinal cord injuries, Cerebral palsy, epilepsy, who were severely disabled. (Think group home full of nonverbal people in wheelchairs.) Then compare this to "healing services" today. Joni Erickson-Tada talks about going to "healing services" and how they'd put all the people who were obviously disabled over in their own section; and begin to remove them before the service was over. How long has Joni been a quadriplegic? (50 plus years at this point.)

People like her don't get healed. People like my son don't get healed either. We'd go to a Christian music festival in our area quite frequently and I'd be pushing him around in his special needs stroller and on occasion we'd get people who'd come up to us claiming they could heal him. Year after year though, he was still in that wheelchair. Eventually people stopped trying to heal him. (It's really not funny because they make a mockery out of the grace of God and the real reason Jesus came in the first place. What's more important than delivering sinners from the wrath of God?)

Then after the car accident; I've had at least 1/2 a dozen people say they could heal me of my mobility impairment. Lots of broken bones in my legs. 12 years later; I'm still on crutches. I improved through multiple surgeries and physical therapy. But I'll never run again on this side of eternity. I know that! But I can live with that. because I know there's a far better glory coming. And on the other side of eternity; my and my son's disabilities aren't going to matter any more. So we spend our lives in a wheelchair or having to take medication so our seizures don't kill us. I'd rather enter the Kingdom lame and intellectually disabled than never get there at all!

So no, the claims made today are nothing like what really happened in the 1st century. Or like with prophets prior where bonified miracles could be proven. Everyone knew who Isaiah was. Everyone knew who Jeremiah, Danial and Joseph were. Everyone knew who Jesus was. People totally outside of the OT covenant sought these people out. And though people accused them of immorality and often martyred them. Very little in the way of accusing them of false miracles.

Now why do you suppose that is. Why the discrepancy between that and post apostolic history?

 

[The Righterzpen]

I think this verse was more important in relation to that,...

1Co 13:10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

This describes what sets in motion the doing away with of the gifts. But what is that perfection described here? If we look into scripture and the example of Jesus, the only thing I see happening to us that would bring about a perfection where we wouldn't need the gifts any longer would be our glorified bodies when the body of Christ is pulled up out of the world.

"That which is perfect is come" is a reference to the completion of the atonement. That "which was in part" that was "done away with" was the OT system. The writing of the NT was the explanation of how Christ fulfilled the OT. That's why tongues (and the other sign gifts) ceased upon the completion of Scripture.

Go back to Exodus. The whole canon of Scripture opens with Moses complaining to God that the people won't believe him. So God institutes the presentation of miraculous sign gifts. Note now who had the ability to perform such acts. (Those tasked with the job of recording Scripture.) Why were they given these abilities? (Because that was the "sign" that they were those legitimately sent by God.)

But now that the atonement is complete and all that God was to reveal about the salvation plan has been recorded; the office of apostle and prophet has come to an end. The canon is closed. The fact that what tries to pass as miraculous today is provably fake is evidence of the fact that the canon of Scripture is closed.

 

[ARBITER01]

"That which is perfect is come" is a reference to the completion of the atonement. That "which was in part" that was "done away with" was the OT system. The writing of the NT was the explanation of how Christ fulfilled the OT. That's why tongues (and the other sign gifts) ceased upon the completion of Scripture.

Go back to Exodus. The whole canon of Scripture opens with Moses complaining to God that the people won't believe him. So God institutes the presentation of miraculous sign gifts. Note now who had the ability to perform such acts. (Those tasked with the job of recording Scripture.) Why were they given these abilities? (Because that was the "sign" that they were those legitimately sent by God.)

But now that the atonement is complete and all that God was to reveal about the salvation plan has been recorded; the office of apostle and prophet has come to an end. The canon is closed. The fact that what tries to pass as miraculous today is provably fake is evidence of the fact that the canon of Scripture is closed.

I'm sorry, but I can't buy that.

The OT and the NT are compltely separate. The OT does not dictate what will happen in the NT. It is certainly a reference with shadows of the truth, but the Spiritual reality of truth came with Jesus's death on the cross and Acts 2, with the beginning of the Church.

Until GOD has no more need for the body of Christ down here and decides to pull us all up, then will we have no need for the gifts. Until then, what GOD offered the first century Christians is still available. He doesn't discriminate.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I'm sorry, but I can't buy that.

Really?

The OT and the NT are compltely separate.

Aint they testaments of the same God? If there's only one God; than how are they separate?

The OT does not dictate what will happen in the NT. It is certainly a reference with shadows of the truth, but the Spiritual reality of truth came with Jesus's death on the cross and Acts 2, with the beginning of the Church.

So what was the prophecy in the OT about if it wasn't about Christ? To say the Old Testament is totally separate and does not dictate what will happen in the NT.... displays a real lack of understanding of Scripture.

So if the "spiritual reality of truth" started with the NT; then what was the OT? A lie steeped in darkness? Is the world today any less sinful than it was prior to the incarnation?

Until GOD has no more need for the body of Christ down here and decides to pull us all up, then will we have no need for the gifts. Until then, what GOD offered the first century Christians is still available. He doesn't discriminate.

Got news for ya. God doesn't actually need any of us! Should it not be His grace that we are depending on as opposed to needing a sign gift. You know the Scripture says that "a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign" don't you?

So.... why is it that you "need" tongues? Why is the atonement not enough?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes, lots of hearsay over the years; (even centuries) but no firm verifiable documentation on any of it. Thus why what we read of Calvin, Wesley or Luther. That yeah, they heard rumors in their day too; but no verification. None had ever stated that they'd witnessed anything that they'd categorize as a Biblical miracle.

Which this was not the case with the apostles and Christ. We know this because Nicodemus who was an elder of the Sanhedrin said to Jesus. "We know you come from God; (We know you are the Messiah.) because no one could do what you do if God were not with him." And in that right there; Nicodemus admits that the rulers of Israel KNEW Jesus was the Messiah. And because they knew he was the Messiah on account of having witnessed what he was capable of doing; is why they'd committed blasphemy against the Spirit.

Imagine the chaos that would ensue if Jesus's earthly ministry happened in our day. He'd have more paparazzi than all of Hollywood combined. There was no question what he was capable of. It was witnessed and documented. So it's not that the unbelievers were seeking proof. (They had that!) They were flat out lying when they'd accuse him of blasphemy. Notice they never said his miracles were fake! They accused him of moral failings, breaking the law and committing blasphemy. But they never accused him of fake miracles!

He healed people who had spinal cord injuries, Cerebral palsy, epilepsy, who were severely disabled. (Think group home full of nonverbal people in wheelchairs.) Then compare this to "healing services" today. Joni Erickson-Tada talks about going to "healing services" and how they'd put all the people who were obviously disabled over in their own section; and begin to remove them before the service was over. How long has Joni been a quadriplegic? (50 plus years at this point.)

People like her don't get healed. People like my son don't get healed either. We'd go to a Christian music festival in our area quite frequently and I'd be pushing him around in his special needs stroller and on occasion we'd get people who'd come up to us claiming they could heal him. Year after year though, he was still in that wheelchair. Eventually people stopped trying to heal him. (It's really not funny because they make a mockery out of the grace of God and the real reason Jesus came in the first place. What's more important than delivering sinners from the wrath of God?)

Then after the car accident; I've had at least 1/2 a dozen people say they could heal me of my mobility impairment. Lots of broken bones in my legs. 12 years later; I'm still on crutches. I improved through multiple surgeries and physical therapy. But I'll never run again on this side of eternity. I know that! But I can live with that. because I know there's a far better glory coming. And on the other side of eternity; my and my son's disabilities aren't going to matter any more. So we spend our lives in a wheelchair or having to take medication so our seizures don't kill us. I'd rather enter the Kingdom lame and intellectually disabled than never get there at all!

So no, the claims made today are nothing like what really happened in the 1st century. Or like with prophets prior where bonified miracles could be proven. Everyone knew who Isaiah was. Everyone knew who Jeremiah, Danial and Joseph were. Everyone knew who Jesus was. People totally outside of the OT covenant sought these people out. And though people accused them of immorality and often martyred them. Very little in the way of accusing them of false miracles.

Now why do you suppose that is. Why the discrepancy between that and post apostolic history?

I don't believe in guaranteed healing. I do believe in praying for sick people on the basis of Philippians 4:5-6 and am content when they receive the peace of God that passes understanding, even though healing doesn't come.

 

[ARBITER01]

So.... why is it that you "need" tongues? Why is the atonement not enough?

I consider the filling of The Holy Spirit as part of the package we are to receive from our Lord.

But do I "need" the gift of tongues? Absolutely! It is my prayer language. I'm able to preemptively pray for things with GOD that I couldn't do otherwise through my mind.

It's absolutely essential to me.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I don't believe in guaranteed healing. I do believe in praying for sick people on the basis of Philippians 4:5-6 and am content when they receive the peace of God that passes understanding, even though healing doesn't come.

When Jesus healed people though, they didn't lose their healing. Another testament to the fact that what's being toted as miraculous sign gifts isn't real.

Interesting though what you say about the peace of God that passes understanding (despite them not being healed). Isn't that what a genuine believer is suppose to be? Contentment in God's provided salvation; regardless of circumstance.

I do agree that we should pray for people who are sick and / or otherwise struggling. But what ultimately are any of us praying for? To somehow escape death? Or is it rather the wisdom to know which direction to go next and the strength and courage to do what ever the next task God puts in front of us.

I know for me; that's basically what my prayer life consists of. Praying for wisdom to know which direction to go and the strength and courage to do the next task God puts in front of me.

 

[ARBITER01]

Now why do you suppose that is. Why the discrepancy between that and post apostolic history?

I re-read you post a couple times, and I can understand why you might hold to certain opinions about "faith" healers and those of us of the Pentecostal/Charismatic persuasion. In many respects, you won't get much of an argument from Oscarr and I over these hirelings.

But I can answer your question.

The answer revolves around the example that Jesus gave just before He started His ministry. He was water immersed, filled with The Spirit, then He was led into the wilderness for his trials. It wasn't till He was complete with His trials that He came back and declared,..

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.

This is what people are not reaching for. Sure, we get born again, water immersed, even a good percentage of us get filled with The Spirit, but no one,.... I said no one currently,..... is operating under an anointing from GOD. If they were, then the same works that Jesus did would be happening in their lives.

The different gifts of healings, the working of miracles, the gift of faith, all require The Holy Spirit to operate them, but it never happens because The Holy Spirit is not resting upon them because they have no anointing.

That's the answer. You can disagree with me if you like, but all of these dummies out there you've run into are trying to do it by faith and failing big time.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I consider the filling of The Holy Spirit as part of the package we are to receive from our Lord.

But do I "need" the gift of tongues? Absolutely! It is my prayer language. I'm able to preemptively pray for things with GOD that I couldn't do otherwise through my mind.

It's absolutely essential to me.

Really.... you "preemptively pray for things with God that you couldn't do otherwise through your mind"? What is this.. the Jedi force... be with you?

Where in the Lord's prayer is "preemptively pray for things with God that you can't otherwise do through your mind"?

I'm assuming here, that you are not even aware that this isn't a Christian concept.

 

[ARBITER01]

Really.... you "preemptively pray for things with God that you couldn't do otherwise through your mind"? What is this.. the Jedi force... be with you?

Where in the Lord's prayer is "preemptively pray for things with God that you can't otherwise do through your mind"?

I'm assuming here, that you are not even aware that this isn't a Christian concept.

It's very much a reality for me.

My mind is limited in relation to GOD in eternity. I have no idea what I need to pray for till after the fact a lot of times. With my prayer language, I can sort of connect with GOD better, and pray for those things and situations that I would not know otherwise. It takes it beyond the limitations of my mind.

I know that it is not specified in scripture, but it is a common everyday occurrence for me. It's not like I never talk to GOD or ask for things in my known language. I do, but I'd rather pray spiritually and also enjoy the strengthening inside.

It has it's benefits.

 

[The Righterzpen]

The answer revolves around the example that Jesus gave just before He started His ministry. He was water immersed, filled with The Spirit, then He was led into the wilderness for his trials. It wasn't till He was complete with His trials that He came back and declared,..

Was the incarnation somehow insufficient that Christ needed "completion"? Was he not wholly God and wholly man from conception?

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.

When was Christ anointed? (I'll give you a hint - Revelation 13:8)

If Christ is the 2nd person of the Godhead, eternal, immortal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God incarnate - having been "slain from the foundation of the world". When has he ever been insufficient?

This is what people are not reaching for. Sure, we get born again, water immersed, even a good percentage of us get filled with The Spirit, but no one,.... I said no one currently,..... is operating under an anointing from GOD. If they were, then the same works that Jesus did would be happening in their lives.

The different gifts of healings, the working of miracles, the gift of faith, all require The Holy Spirit to operate them, but it never happens because The Holy Spirit is not resting upon them because they have no anointing.

That's the answer. You can disagree with me if you like, but all of these dummies out there you've run into are trying to do it by faith and failing big time.

So why is no one operating "under the anointing from God"?

The Holy Spirit isn't "resting on" me. He's dwelling within me. Permanently cleaved to my redeemed soul. His grace is sufficient. The faith He's given me, has no need of sign gifts.

 

[The Righterzpen]

It's very much a reality for me.

My mind is limited in relation to GOD in eternity. I have no idea what I need to pray for till after the fact a lot of times. With my prayer language, I can sort of connect with GOD better, and pray for those things and situations that I would not know otherwise. It takes it beyond the limitations of my mind.

I know that it is not specified in scripture, but it is a common everyday occurrence for me. It's not like I never talk to GOD or ask for things in my known language. I do, but I'd rather pray spiritually and also enjoy the strengthening inside.

It has it's benefits.

How come you need those "benefits" and I don't? Particularly in the light of your confession that you know this idea isn't actually in Scripture.

Dat's kinda scary.... knowing that you aint actually obeying God - don't ya think?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Well.... I gotta get ready to go to work now.

 

[ARBITER01]

Was the incarnation somehow insufficient that Christ needed "completion"? Was he not wholly God and wholly man from conception?

When was Christ anointed? (I'll give you a hint - Revelation 13:8)

If Christ is the 2nd person of the Godhead, eternal, immortal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God incarnate - having been "slain from the foundation of the world". When has he ever been insufficient?

So why is no one operating "under the anointing from God"?

The Holy Spirit isn't "resting on" me. He's dwelling within me. Permanently cleaved to my redeemed soul. His grace is sufficient. The faith He's given me, has no need of sign gifts.

Jesus gave us a perfect example to follow, so that is why we become water immersed, why some of us seek the filling of The Spirit. He did things as a man down here. Of course He was both GOD and man, but He did things as a man so that we could do them also.

It's just that people are not following all the steps. Some people get caught up in academia, some in social programs and humanism, and a whole host of other diversions and what not. Plus we have an enemy out there who used to be an anointed cherub, who knows all about the anointing, and fights us against receiving it and keeping it.

 

[ARBITER01]

How come you need those "benefits" and I don't? Particularly in the light of your confession that you know this idea isn't actually in Scripture.

Dat's kinda scary.... knowing that you aint actually obeying God - don't ya think?

Well,.... scripture doesn't tell me what my next job is either.

We are to be led by The Holy Spirit, not scripture. Scripture is absolutely important, but it's not my idol. I don't cage myself in by refusing to do something I can't find in scripture. I always ask GOD about things. If He decides to lead me to a passage of scripture, then He will, but most of the time I receive the answer directly from Him.

So yes, there are certain "deeper" things of GOD that will not be identified in scripture, and it's only from a personal relationship with Him that we begin to know of them.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Jesus gave us a perfect example to follow, so that is why we become water immersed, why some of us seek the filling of The Spirit. He did things as a man down here. Of course He was both GOD and man, but He did things as a man so that we could do them also.

What exactly does atoning for sin mean to you? Jesus's reason for doing the things he did; wasn't so we could do them too. The reason Jesus stated for doing what he did, was that those he came to redeem would understand and believe that his atonement for sin was sufficient. "That you may believe"; he'd stated.

It's just that people are not following all the steps. Some people get caught up in academia, some in social programs and humanism, and a whole host of other diversions and what not. Plus we have an enemy out there who used to be an anointed cherub, who knows all about the anointing, and fights us against receiving it and keeping it.

The steps of what. You can't redeem yourself.

We are to be led by The Holy Spirit, not scripture. Scripture is absolutely important, but it's not my idol. I don't cage myself in by refusing to do something I can't find in scripture. I always ask GOD about things. If He decides to lead me to a passage of scripture, then He will, but most of the time I receive the answer directly from Him.

If you don't need Scripture because you can just "receive the answer directly from God" than what was the point of writing Scripture? And without Scripture; how can you know whether it's really God leading you, if you don't know what Scripture says? "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked." How do you know whether or not you are being led astray if you have no grounding of what is required by the absolute moral authority that rules over you?

So yes, there are certain "deeper" things of GOD that will not be identified in scripture, and it's only from a personal relationship with Him that we begin to know of them.

And so you're a gnostic too.

 

[ARBITER01]

What exactly does atoning for sin mean to you? Jesus's reason for doing the things he did; wasn't so we could do them too.

John 14:12, my favorite verse,...

Joh 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you the-one believing into Me, the works which I do, shall that-one do also, and greater than these shall he do, because I am going to My Father.

I made sure the Greek articles were presented, just so everyone could see this verse applies to "the-one believing."

Jesus gave us His standard so that we could follow Him and do the same thing. His works, apart from going to the cross, are suppose to be evident in our lives,.... if we truly believe in Him.

So yes, He was a perfect example for us to follow, and He expects us to. This is much more than just the atonement, and it seems you may have a lot to catch up on since you didn't know about this verse.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What exactly does atoning for sin mean to you? Jesus's reason for doing the things he did; wasn't so we could do them too. The reason Jesus stated for doing what he did, was that those he came to redeem would understand and believe that his atonement for sin was sufficient. "That you may believe"; he'd stated.

The steps of what. You can't redeem yourself.

If you don't need Scripture because you can just "receive the answer directly from God" than what was the point of writing Scripture? And without Scripture; how can you know whether it's really God leading you, if you don't know what Scripture says? "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked." How do you know whether or not you are being led astray if you have no grounding of what is required by the absolute moral authority that rules over you?

And so you're a gnostic too.

What exactly does atoning for sin mean to you? Jesus's reason for doing the things he did; wasn't so we could do them too. The reason Jesus stated for doing what he did, was that those he came to redeem would understand and believe that his atonement for sin was sufficient. "That you may believe"; he'd stated.

The steps of what. You can't redeem yourself.

If you don't need Scripture because you can just "receive the answer directly from God" than what was the point of writing Scripture? And without Scripture; how can you know whether it's really God leading you, if you don't know what Scripture says? "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked." How do you know whether or not you are being led astray if you have no grounding of what is required by the absolute moral authority that rules over you?

And so you're a gnostic too.

What exactly does atoning for sin mean to you? Jesus's reason for doing the things he did; wasn't so we could do them too. The reason Jesus stated for doing what he did, was that those he came to redeem would understand and believe that his atonement for sin was sufficient. "That you may believe"; he'd stated.

The steps of what. You can't redeem yourself.

If you don't need Scripture because you can just "receive the answer directly from God" than what was the point of writing Scripture? And without Scripture; how can you know whether it's really God leading you, if you don't know what Scripture says? "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked." How do you know whether or not you are being led astray if you have no grounding of what is required by the absolute moral authority that rules over you?

And so you're a gnostic too.

This is where I respectfully differ from my friend, and which makes me a Presbyterian rather than an AOG or have any identification with the modern Charismatic movement. I believe that God has said everything in the Scriptures that He is to say to mankind. The Holy Spirit does speak to us, but He will remind us only what has already been said in the Scriptures and will help us to apply them practically to our lives. There is no "deeper" revelation that is extra to the written Scriptures. Actually, after 56 years of studying the Scriptures and three years of completing an M.Div in my late 60s, I feel that I have only just scratched the surface of the wealth that is in the Scriptures. Every time I open the Bible I find things in the Scriptures that I have never seen before, because the God's Word is living - because the Holy Spirit is active in the pages. This makes the living Scriptures entirely different from any other book. The Bible is God's gift to us that keeps on giving and giving and will never be exhausted. This is because God is involved in His written Word and He is eternal. We will be learning and fellowshiping with Him in eternity for ever, and even there we will never get to the bottom of who He is, and the wonder of His nature and character. This is why when we get to heaven we will be overtaken with praise, adoration and worship.

 

[ARBITER01]

This is where I respectfully differ from my friend, and which makes me a Presbyterian rather than an AOG or have any identification with the modern Charismatic movement. I believe that God has said everything in the Scriptures that He is to say to mankind. The Holy Spirit does speak to us, but He will remind us only what has already been said in the Scriptures and will help us to apply them practically to our lives. There is no "deeper" revelation that is extra to the written Scriptures. Actually, after 56 years of studying the Scriptures and three years of completing an M.Div in my late 60s, I feel that I have only just scratched the surface of the wealth that is in the Scriptures. Every time I open the Bible I find things in the Scriptures that I have never seen before, because the God's Word is living - because the Holy Spirit is active in the pages. This makes the living Scriptures entirely different from any other book. The Bible is God's gift to us that keeps on giving and giving and will never be exhausted. This is because God is involved in His written Word and He is eternal. We will be learning and fellowshiping with Him in eternity for ever, and even there we will never get to the bottom of who He is, and the wonder of His nature and character. This is why when we get to heaven we will be overtaken with praise, adoration and worship.

Let's not go about beating me up here.

Paul didn't have his leather bound king james bible to carry around and guide him, nor did any of the apostles. Did they consult some parchments first before they did anything or did they listen to what The Holy Spirit said to them?

We are to be led by The Holy Spirit, or else we are still a babe in Christ.

I didn't say I don't use the bible, just that I have a relationship with The Lord and guided by Him foremost. I don't try to find GOD in the pages of my bible when I can talk to Him everyday, anytime.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Let's not go about beating me up here.

Paul didn't have his leather bound king james bible to carry around and guide him, nor did any of the apostles. Did they consult some parchments first before they did anything or did they listen to what The Holy Spirit said to them?

We are to be led by The Holy Spirit, or else we are still a babe in Christ.

I didn't say I don't use the bible, just that I have a relationship with The Lord and guided by Him foremost. I don't try to find GOD in the pages of my bible when I can talk to Him everyday, anytime.

I'm not beating you up here. All I am doing is explaining my position in the matter. I don't carry a leather bound Bible around with me either to check to see if what I believe the Holy Spirit has said to be is consistent with God's Word. Because I have done a lifetime study of the Scriptures and did the three year intensive M.Div programme I have developed through maturity and experience to distinguish the voice of the Holy Spirit apart from other thoughts and ideas that come to me. Often when I have meditated on an issue and wondered if my thinking is correct, a verse of Scripture would come to me that will confirm it. I have been amazed at how often it has happened, and sometimes verses have come to me that I haven't thought of for decades. Once I got woken up in the early hours with a chapter and verse reference from Psalms which kept coming to me until I had to turn my bedside light on and look it up. It was the exact verse I needed to deal with an issue that was concerning me.