Glossolalia (speaking in tongues) and a theory on what really happened at Pentecost?

[The Righterzpen]

John 14:12, my favorite verse,...

Joh 14:12 Truly, truly, I say to you the-one believing into Me, the works which I do, shall that-one do also, and greater than these shall he do, because I am going to My Father.

I made sure the Greek articles were presented, just so everyone could see this verse applies to "the-one believing."

Jesus gave us His standard so that we could follow Him and do the same thing. His works, apart from going to the cross, are suppose to be evident in our lives,.... if we truly believe in Him.

So yes, He was a perfect example for us to follow, and He expects us to. This is much more than just the atonement, and it seems you may have a lot to catch up on since you didn't know about this verse.

So, let me get this strait. Your whole motivation is to do the things that Jesus did for..... ??? And yes, I certainly see now that for you; this is about so much more than just the atonement.

Matter of fact; you probably could care less about the atonement. Is that not correct.

 

[ARBITER01]

So, let me get this strait. Your whole motivation is to do the things that Jesus did for..... ??? And yes, I certainly see now that for you; this is about so much more than just the atonement.

Matter of fact; you probably could care less about the atonement. Is that not correct.

Good thing I woke up early.

I don't center my Christianity around just being born again, water immersed, and going to church. Jesus expects us to become disciples,... all of us. If you are born again, that includes you. We are to learn how to follow Him and do those things He wants done, and that means we need to hear Him speak to us inside.

For some people that might be somewhat easy to do, for others it's going to be a harsh road, but each of us will be rewarded accordingly in the end.

You are upset that people in the Pentecostal/Charismatic side of things are not what you expected when they made all their claims for healing and such. I sympathize with that. It's been my ambition early on with Jesus to get into healing, but I also noticed how people could make fools of themselves so easily by trying to do things that they were not called for.

I actually care about trying to find out how to properly do things instead of just trying to "wing-it" by faith like most in the body of Christ do.

 

[The Righterzpen]

This is where I respectfully differ from my friend, and which makes me a Presbyterian rather than an AOG or have any identification with the modern Charismatic movement. I believe that God has said everything in the Scriptures that He is to say to mankind. The Holy Spirit does speak to us, but He will remind us only what has already been said in the Scriptures and will help us to apply them practically to our lives. There is no "deeper" revelation that is extra to the written Scriptures. Actually, after 56 years of studying the Scriptures and three years of completing an M.Div in my late 60s, I feel that I have only just scratched the surface of the wealth that is in the Scriptures. Every time I open the Bible I find things in the Scriptures that I have never seen before, because the God's Word is living - because the Holy Spirit is active in the pages. This makes the living Scriptures entirely different from any other book. The Bible is God's gift to us that keeps on giving and giving and will never be exhausted. This is because God is involved in His written Word and He is eternal. We will be learning and fellowshiping with Him in eternity for ever, and even there we will never get to the bottom of who He is, and the wonder of His nature and character. This is why when we get to heaven we will be overtaken with praise, adoration and worship.

Have you ever considered there's a difference between illumination and revelation. The Holy Spirit certainly works through Scripture to enlighten one's understanding. But that's not the same thing as "additional revelation". Because as you say; what you are learning is only coming from Scripture.

I study the Bible primarily by doing word and phrase searches using a concordance and looking at the Greek and Hebrew words to compare passages to each other. I've found a lot of interesting things doing that over the years. Stuff I didn't even know was there and never would have found even if I was trying to look for it. There are several phrases particularly in Hebrew, that I've found, which I never would have realized were the same phrase; because the English doesn't translate it as the same phrase. Like the number 666. Do you know where that is in the Bible, besides the book of Revelation. (It's in two other places in the OT.) That was an interesting find!

 

[The Righterzpen]

Good thing I woke up early.

I don't center my Christianity around just being born again, water immersed, and going to church. Jesus expects us to become disciples,... all of us. If you are born again, that includes you. We are to learn how to follow Him and do those things He wants done, and that means we need to hear Him speak to us inside.

For some people that might be somewhat easy to do, for others it's going to be a harsh road, but each of us will be rewarded accordingly in the end.

You are upset that people in the Pentecostal/Charismatic side of things are not what you expected when they made all their claims for healing and such. I sympathize with that. It's been my ambition early on with Jesus to get into healing, but I also noticed how people could make fools of themselves so easily by trying to do things that they were not called for.

I actually care about trying to find out how to properly do things instead of just trying to "wing-it" by faith like most in the body of Christ do.

So you're "in it" for a reward basically.

 

[ARBITER01]

So you're "in it" for a reward basically.

Is that what I really said?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Is that what I really said?

Yeah, basically. You want a reward. You want to do what Jesus did. You want special revelation. You want your own piece of God's glory.

When I asked you about the atonement. You drew a blank.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Let's not go about beating me up here.

Paul didn't have his leather bound king james bible to carry around and guide him, nor did any of the apostles. Did they consult some parchments first before they did anything or did they listen to what The Holy Spirit said to them?

We are to be led by The Holy Spirit, or else we are still a babe in Christ.

I didn't say I don't use the bible, just that I have a relationship with The Lord and guided by Him foremost. I don't try to find GOD in the pages of my bible when I can talk to Him everyday, anytime.

I had another thought after my last post to you. From what I know of you, you have basically the same level of maturity and experience that I have over many years of reading and studying the Scriptures to the point that they have become so built into your spirit, heart and subconscious mind, that when you get an extra-Biblical revelation from the Holy Spirit, you automatically recognise that it is from the Holy Spirit and not from the world, flesh or the devil. I'll bet your bottom dollar that every revelation you have received that you recognise as being of the Spirit, the basis of that revelation is contained somewhere in the Bible, and if you decide to check it out you would find it. Paul and Apollos were the same, they were so mighty in the Scriptures that they didn't need to carry scrolls around with them so they could check to see if the revelations they received were of the Holy Spirit or not. Maybe the Bereans had to study the Scriptures to validate what Paul was teaching them, because they didn't have the same depth of experience he had.

What concerns me about some who come up with revelations that have nothing to do with the Bible is that they have little or no experience in the Scriptures and so they are easily led aside by deception, thinking they are being led by the Holy Spirit when they are actually being led of the flesh or the devil. But I don't put you into that category, because what I have read of your posts they look like pretty sound doctrine to me.

 

[ARBITER01]

Yeah, basically. You want a reward. You want to do what Jesus did. You want special revelation. You want your own piece of God's glory.

Lol, is this how you view things all the time?

You need to actually read what I said without your hatred glasses on. You would see that I actually care to follow Jesus and do those things He wants,..... and the reason being,..... because He pulled me out of my pit of sin 30 some years ago and showed me a love beyond anything that anyone down here could have. It was the very thing I was looking for all my life.

It's a relationship with our divine King.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Have you ever considered there's a difference between illumination and revelation. The Holy Spirit certainly works through Scripture to enlighten one's understanding. But that's not the same thing as "additional revelation". Because as you say; what you are learning is only coming from Scripture.

I study the Bible primarily by doing word and phrase searches using a concordance and looking at the Greek and Hebrew words to compare passages to each other. I've found a lot of interesting things doing that over the years. Stuff I didn't even know was there and never would have found even if I was trying to look for it. There are several phrases particularly in Hebrew, that I've found, which I never would have realized were the same phrase; because the English doesn't translate it as the same phrase. Like the number 666. Do you know where that is in the Bible, besides the book of Revelation. (It's in two other places in the OT.) That was an interesting find!

You will see in my latest post to my friend that I have corrected myself somewhat and suggested that we are more on the same page about extra-Biblical revelation than what I first thought. There is definite difference between extra-Biblical revelation and non-Biblical revelation. When the Holy Spirit gives us revelation that is consistent with Scripture apart from actually reading the text, we recognise it as the Holy Spirit through our experience and maturity in the Scriptures. We similarly know that non-Biblical revelation doesn't come from the Holy Spirit at all, but from the world, flesh or the devil.

 

[ARBITER01]

I had another thought after my last post to you. From what I know of you, you have basically the same level of maturity and experience that I have over many years of reading and studying the Scriptures to the point that they have become so built into your spirit, heart and subconscious mind, that when you get an extra-Biblical revelation from the Holy Spirit, you automatically recognise that it is from the Holy Spirit and not from the world, flesh or the devil. I'll bet your bottom dollar that every revelation you have received that you recognise as being of the Spirit, the basis of that revelation is contained somewhere in the Bible, and if you decide to check it out you would find it. Paul and Apollos were the same, they were so mighty in the Scriptures that they didn't need to carry scrolls around with them so they could check to see if the revelations they received were of the Holy Spirit or not. Maybe the Bereans had to study the Scriptures to validate what Paul was teaching them, because they didn't have the same depth of experience he had.

What concerns me about some who come up with revelations that have nothing to do with the Bible is that they have little or no experience in the Scriptures and so they are easily led aside by deception, thinking they are being led by the Holy Spirit when they are actually being led of the flesh or the devil. But I don't put you into that category, because what I have read of your posts they look like pretty sound doctrine to me.

You're absolutely correct.

It takes a lot of years to learn how to properly follow the leading of The Holy Spirit. We all have to know the differences between the voice of Jesus inside us and those voices in ours ears trying to mislead us. The differences between the revelation of The Holy Spirit inside us and the misleading of our heart with all it's feelings and such.

Don't think I don't use my bible, I most certainly do. But the Apostles had to learn to hear The Holy Spirit speak and obey His voice and leading, and so do we.

 

[The Righterzpen]

You need to actually read what I said without your hatred glasses on.

Jesus loves you so much, you don't need the Bible.

Got it!

 

[ARBITER01]

"... more than anyone down here could have" Huh.... You're Jesus's favorite ....... Ehhh!

Oh go ahead and flame, I don't mind contacting the mods.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Oh go ahead and flame, I don't mind contacting the mods.

You realize this is what you sound like though. Like you got this special relationship with Jesus that no one else has!

 

[The Righterzpen]

You're absolutely correct.

It takes a lot of years to learn how to properly follow the leading of The Holy Spirit. We all have to know the differences between the voice of Jesus inside us and those voices in ours ears trying to mislead us. The differences between the revelation of The Holy Spirit inside us and the misleading of our heart with all it's feelings and such.

Don't think I don't use my bible, I most certainly do. But the Apostles had to learn to hear The Holy Spirit speak and obey His voice and leading, and so do we.

Well, when I read the Bible and God spoke directly to people. There was no doubt in their minds what was God's voice and what was their thoughts.

 

[ARBITER01]

You realize this is what you sound like though. Like you got this special relationship with Jesus that no one else has!

If you seeing anything more beyond what I'm posting, then it is you, not me.

 

[The Righterzpen]

If you seeing anything more beyond what I'm posting, then it is you, not me.

Ok, then I guess it's me then isn't it?

 

[ARBITER01]

Well, when I read the Bible and God spoke directly to people. There was no doubt in their minds what was God's voice and what was their thoughts.

Oh,.... there's obviously no learning curve involved right? It's so easy.

Why are so many people making mistakes on this very issue?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Oh,.... there's obviously no learning curve involved right? It's so easy.

Why are so many people making mistakes on this very issue?

I don't know. But could you explain to me what it's like to be released from the wrath of God?

See I have a hard time wrapping my head around that one.

God leaving His eternal glory to pay the penalty of eternal wrath for sinners that hate Him. What do you suppose it was like for Christ to be severed from the Father and the Spirit. "My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me?"

 

[ARBITER01]

I don't know. But could you explain to me what it's like to be released from the wrath of God?

See I have a hard time wrapping my head around that one.

God leaving His eternal glory to pay the penalty of eternal wrath for sinners that hate Him. What do you suppose it was like for Christ to be severed from the Father and the Spirit. "My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me?"

That's going too far off topic.

 

[The Righterzpen]

That's going too far off topic.

Really? Gee, I thought the atonement was the central reason of why Christ came to earth in the first place.