Re-Thinking Hell

[wendykvw]

Re-thinking and reforming hell? Obviously this is an undertaking of man and not God. Who is man to think he knows better that God? Only those who are steeped in progressive neo-evangelism would tread such a frightful path.

Imagine Martin Luther being too fearful to examine the scriptures for himself. Fear is not a spirit from God. In fact God desires thinking followers, not slaves.

 

[wendykvw]

I think a God of justice must action consequences for wickedness.

Further, the way He seems to do it is by honouring the desire of the individual to be separated from His Love.

A Loveless future with the loveless is a hellish prospect.

Thus the loveless individual chooses the fate.

It really isn't a choice. It's like having cancer. We don't chose cancer, the fallen world allows for cancer. The great physician Jesus Christ cures the fallen nature, the cancer that originated from Adam. Some will ask to be cured by placing faith in Christ. Those who never knew Christ or who had bad information will eventually be cured. If not in this life, they will be cured in the intermediate state. Why? God has the authority to do as He pleases.

 

[wendykvw]

A former annihilation supporter now Universalist Pastor. Also my friend.

 

[wendykvw]

A Universalist church in Denver Colorado. Welcome to relentless-love.org

 

[Receivedgrace]

Imagine Martin Luther being too fearful to examine the scriptures for himself. Fear is not a spirit from God. In fact God desires thinking followers, not slaves.

Scripture states that we are slaves to sin before we receive Christ. Just how well are you acquainted with Martin Luther?

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus spoke in Parables. He revealed the meaning to those who had ears to hear and eyes to see.

Luke 16:19-31 is not in the proper format of a parable. A parable is used to explain something unknown/not understood by comparing it to something known/understood. For example,
Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
There is no "X is like unto to Y" in Luke 16:19-31
This story is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
The word "parable" occurs 32 times in the NT. Jesus identifies parables 5 times.
Matthew 13:18, Matthew 21:33, Matthew 24:32, Matthew 4:13, Matthew 13:28.
17 times the writer identifies the parables.
Luk 16:19-31 might be some other figure of speech, but it is not a parable.
…..All of the unquestioned parables are anonymous; a certain widow, a certain man, a certain landowner etc. The story of Lazarus and the rich man mentions three specific actual persons by name; Lazarus, Abraham and Moses.
If Abraham was not in the place Jesus named and did not speak the words Jesus quoted then Jesus lied. Would Jesus use a false statement to make a point?
What most folks don’t know about the rich man, he violated a specific commandment.

Deuteronomy 15:7-8
7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
8 But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.​

All of the ECF who quoted Luk 16:19-31considered it to be factual.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the hay. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well,
the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.​

 

[Carl Emerson]

It really isn't a choice. It's like having cancer. We don't chose cancer, the fallen world allows for cancer. The great physician Jesus Christ cures the fallen nature, the cancer that originated from Adam. Some will ask to be cured by placing faith in Christ. Those who never knew Christ could cure them or who had bad information will eventually be cured. If not in this life, they will be cured in the intermediate state. Why? God has the authority to do as He pleases.

Sorry - but I don't see this perspective being sustained by Scripture.

 

[GTW27]

Jesus spoke in Parables. He revealed the meaning to those who had ears to hear and eyes to see.

"I spoke to the prophets; it was I who multiplied visions, and through the prophets gave parables."

There once was a woman who every day would leave her house, walk down the street and enter the woods. She would walk for awhile and then she would stop right between 2 trees. As she was standing there, she could feel how hungry and thirsty she was. On her left, was a tree with every kind of fruit she could imagine. The fruit came in every size and shape, and color. The tree was filled to overflowing with these fruit. Now on her right, was a tree with only one shiny Apple in the middle of it. When she looked at it, she desired it, because of how hungry and thirsty she was. She then stretch out arm and grabbed a fruit from the tree on her left, and started her walk home. This, she did for many days, but the hunger and thirst remained. One day, as she found herself standing between the two trees off in the distance there appeared an old Man who's hair was as white as snow. He proceeded right up to the woman, and stopped right before her. He then asked the woman, Hi, may I ask what you are doing, standing here?' The woman responded to the Man and said, "Everyday, for awhile now, I have been hungry and thirsty and find myself standing between these two trees. Can you see, as she pointed, that apple, how shiny and juicy it looks. I can only imagine how good it would be to eat." The Man then responded," Now I must tell you a truth, long ago, you had that apple, but decided to set it down. Have you even tried to bend your arm to reach it?' The woman then said," no I have not, I always reach for one of these, from this tree, and then I head home. The Man then responded and said, "Today, if you should decide to reach for this apple you will be able. And should you decide to eat of it, you shall never hunger or thirst again, for the Name of this Apple is the Apple of Life." The Man then turned and started to walk. As she was watching as He disappeared right before her eyes.

There is but one Truth, and that Truth can only be found in Jesus. And if you eat and drink from Him you will never hunger or thirst again. Blessings to all who have a heart to understand these words.
And Jesus said, I Am The Way, The Truth and The Life. No one comes to The Father but by(through) Me.

 

[wendykvw]

Sorry - but I don't see this perspective being sustained by Scripture.

Really? How about Romans 5:15.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Really? How about Romans 5:15.

The audience is the Church and the many are believers.

 

[wendykvw]

The audience is the Church and the many are believers.

According to verse 18 Adam's trespass condemned everyone. IN other words, the cancer has spread to all humankind.

 

[wendykvw]

Scripture states that we are slaves to sin before we receive Christ. Just how well are you acquainted with Martin Luther?

How well acquainted? I am not sure what you are asking. He questioned the status quo and searched the scripture. He was in the minority, and broke through the corruption of his day.

"I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.b24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."
Paul Romans 7:18-25

 

[wendykvw]

 

[Carl Emerson]

According to verse 18 Adam's trespass condemned everyone. IN other words, the cancer has spread to all humankind.

And...

 

[Receivedgrace]

How well acquainted? I am not sure what you are asking. He questioned the status quo and searched the scripture. He was in the minority, and broke through the corruption of his day.

"I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.b24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."
Paul Romans 7:18-25

He did not question the bible. He questioned the Roman Catholic church's interpretation of the bible.
He rejected the selling of indulgences and the teaching of prayers for the dead who were in supposed purgatory. Great revenue producers for the "church" coffers.
Not unlike today where many apostate teachers make millions selling books, cds and such for millions while they beg for new luxury jets to travel for ministry.

 

[Alive2]

I interpret it as a description of what the Christ went through.

I interpret it as a passage that confirms that Christ suffering at the hands of wicked men was the Lord's choice, not man's. He had the power to lay down His life, and the power to take it back up again.

I don't interpret it as "God requiring Christ to suffer."

I understand interpreting "with His stripes we are healed" as meaning we receive healing because He was beaten—but I don't agree with that interpretation. Everything that is to our advantage converges on our Eternal Redemption, and Eternal Redemption was accomplished, not by His suffering, but by His vicarious death in our stead.

Consider that the Incarnation itself was a means of suffering for The Son of God. It is, I think, difficult to think about Holy God being in the form of man as something that caused grief for God, but I believe it was. The flesh He took upon Himself was a veil he willingly took up, but that was something I view as one of the most difficult aspects of the Incarnation.

I do not deny that His suffering at the hands of wicked men is an important aspect of the Incarnation, but I feel in large part much of this was for the purpose of confirming Prophecy. His beating and scourging are not the source of Eternal Redemption, but His death and Resurrection.

God bless.

 

[Alive2]

I interpret it as a description of what the Christ went through.

I interpret it as a passage that confirms that Christ suffering at the hands of wicked men was the Lord's choice, not man's. He had the power to lay down His life, and the power to take it back up again.

I don't interpret it as "God requiring Christ to suffer."

I understand interpreting "with His stripes we are healed" as meaning we receive healing because He was beaten—but I don't agree with that interpretation. Everything that is to our advantage converges on our Eternal Redemption, and Eternal Redemption was accomplished, not by His suffering, but by His vicarious death in our stead.

Consider that the Incarnation itself was a means of suffering for The Son of God. It is, I think, difficult to think about Holy God being in the form of man as something that caused grief for God, but I believe it was. The flesh He took upon Himself was a veil he willingly took up, but that was something I view as one of the most difficult aspects of the Incarnation.

I do not deny that His suffering at the hands of wicked men is an important aspect of the Incarnation, but I feel in large part much of this was for the purpose of confirming Prophecy. His beating and scourging are not the source of Eternal Redemption, but His death and Resurrection.

God bless.

Dis our Lord suffer torture for eternity of no end?

 

[Receivedgrace]

Dis our Lord suffer torture for eternity of no end?

Well since Christ took our sins upon Himself, He could leave and did leave them in hell for eternity and return to His former glory.
Lost souls cannot free themselves from their sin so they will be bound to them for all eternity.
God's wrath abides on sin for eternity.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Well since Christ took our sins upon Himself, He could leave and did leave them in hell for eternity and return to His former glory.
Lost souls cannot free themselves from their sin so they will be bound to them for all eternity.
God's wrath abides on sin for eternity.

Tell me, how can Jesus the Christ leave sins in "hell" when there is no record in the Bible of the creation of such a place? I looked from one end of my KJV to the other, and did not find any such mention. I should think God would have mentioned it...if He had made it.

Yes, we cannot free ourselves from our sins - only God can. However, He states that the dead are freed from their sins (Romans 6:7).

 

[wendykvw]

And...

And do you disagree with scripture that it spread to all people?