Re-Thinking Hell

[wendykvw]

Did I not say "seeming contradiction?" Whichever verse you quoted earlier must be interpreted to mean "Not every one shall enter the kingdom of heaven" "Many shall go away into eternal punishment!"

Many Christians will also hear those words "away from me I never knew you." Why did HE never know them??? Christ tells them.....you did not feed me, clothe me, visit me while I was in Prison...EVERY Christian should have LOVE and COMPASSION for all people. Spiritual/Religious PRIDE turns people into arrogant and unloving people. This WARNING in Matthew 25:46 is warning people who worship and profess with their lips but have hearts Far from God.

 

[Der Alte]

Not everyone will enter, some will enter the remedial fire. The fire has a purpose. He is the Great Physician, who cures those who are too stubborn in this life to learn the way of love and compassion.
Many Christians will also hear those words "away from me I never knew you." Why did HE never know them??? Christ tells them.....you did not feed me, clothe me, visit me while I was in Prison...EVERY Christian should have LOVE and COMPASSION for all people. Spiritual/Religious PRIDE turns people into arrogant and unloving people. This WARNING in Matthew 25:46 is warning people who worship and profess with their mouth, but have hearts Far from God.

You have decided for yourself, without scriptural support, that the fire is remedial. When Jesus says "never" does He really mean "someday?"
And the warning in Matthew does NOT mean "remedial correction" or some other nonsense thing.
Once again for you to ignore.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, backed up by 2000 years +/- of Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete words which occur in the KJV and to define them correctly.

ETA: UR-ites dearly love to translate "aionios" as "age." It is never translated "age" in the entire NT! Why is it philologically impossible for "aionios" to mean "age?"
"aionios" is an adjective and "age" is a noun.

 

[wendykvw]

You have decided for yourself, without scriptural support, that the fire is remedial. When Jesus says "never" does He really mean "someday?"
And the warning in Matthew does NOT mean "remedial correction" or some other nonsense thing.
Once again for you to ignore.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, backed up by 2000 years +/- of Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete words which occur in the KJV and to define them correctly.

ETA: UR-ites dearly love to translate "aionios" as "age." It is never translated "age" in the entire NT! Why is it philologically impossible for "aionios" to mean "age?"
"aionios" is an adjective and "age" is a noun.

So many fallacies, and so little time. See #591.
Dr. Marvin Vincent is a Presbyterian scholar best known for his Word Studies in the New Testament. Notice, Dr. Vincent is not a universalist. So your little digs that universalist follow other universalist interpretations is a fallacy.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Our God whose essence is Fire, is the Lake of theion & theioo.

I'd also like to know what Christian Assembly you have ever gone to that teaches "God is the Lake of Fire."

What group is it that teaches that Satan will be in Christ by being cast into the Lake of Fire.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Nothing escapes Him as the Source of all things & the consummation of all things.

That is correct: God will judge every last one of us.

And for those who reject His will, it will be a fiery judgment that is fueled by His wrath:


John 3:16-18
King James Version

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


God's love is expressed in His desire for mankind to be saved.

He has given the world His Son that they might be saved.

All He has required of men is that they believe in Jesus Christ.

If man believes in Jesus Christ they will have everlasting Life, which is Life Eternal, eternal through the union God creates with those who believe.

Mankind already stands condemned (v.18):

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


If men do not believe they remain condemned and note carefully the Word of God: those that do not believe will not see life.

They will not receive love.

They will receive wrath.

Universal salvation is false, misleading, and deadly to unbelievers in an eternal context.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Our Father ABBA punishes with one underlying purpose only, change & transformation.

While we do see a universal Fatherhood of God in regards to mankind (as well as Israel) from a Creation perspective, we do not see that in regard to the Church, the Body of Christ, which is the unveiled means of relationship with and to God in this Age.


John 1:11-13
King James Version

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


John 3:3-5
King James Version

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


So I'd be curious to know why it is that the Lord can say those who do not believe in Him will not see life and will not enter the Kingdom yet universal salvation teachers say they will.

How is it that they can teach the exact opposite of Christ's teaching and have no remorse over this?


Continued...

 

[Receivedgrace]

People are redeemed by the sacrifice and faithfulness of Christ. All people will come to know Him. This is the Promise of the Scriptures.

The atonement of Christ is sufficient to redeem all but not all will come to Him for redemption.
Many will not know Him until they stand before Him for ultimate judgment and they shall be cast into the lake fire.
False teachers will have much to give account for when they stand before Christ. No idle word will go unjudged.

 

[Receivedgrace]

Paul never contradicts Christ words. Compare scripture with scripture and you will have a unified story. Christ wins the world, through His wisdom.

Wisdom?
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Your ideology appears to contradict scripture.

 

[P1LGR1M]

There is no "eternal separation" or unending torment expressed by ABBA!

Sure there is, just as there are numerous passages that teach the unbelieving are dead in trespasses and sins, do not have life, never will have life, and will suffer the wrath of God.

Eternal Separation:


Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Jude 12-13
King James Version

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars,
to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


Here, we see the use of aiōn, and the idea that the blackness of darkness is not an indefinite time is not carried out by the passage, or that of the parallel passage in 2 Peter 2:


2 Peter 2:9
King James Version

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;


17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.


"To be punished" speaks of a state of corruption, one which is often defined in Scripture with the imagery of a rotting corpse. When we see that coupled with the image of a corpse whose "worm dieth not," we don't see a concept of "refinement" or purgatorial cleansing. Nor do we see a concept of annihilation.

These are they that reject God's will and have no life. They are twice dead because their reservation is that of the mists of darkness, the blackness of darkness forever, the Second Death, which is the Eternal Separation of the unbelieving from God.

The first separation is the death we are all born into.

Unbelievers will receive Eternal Separation.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
King James Version

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


This separation is always the result of man's choice, not God's:


Genesis 3:8
King James Version

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.



Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

There is no "eternal separation" or unending torment expressed by ABBA!

Unending Torment:


Matthew 13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 13:49-50
King James Version

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?


Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Matthew 25:46
King James Version

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Why would the duration of torment here...


Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

...be any less accurate than here...


Revelation 9:5
And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.


...?

Or here...


Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

...?


Revelation 20:14-15
King James Version

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Eternal Separation will be far worse than the separation we are born into, because at that point the natural man and woman will have full awareness of their separation, and this will be a source of torment for them.

There are only two resurrections taught in Scripture, the resurrection unto life, and the resurrection unto damnation. Those that are raised unto damnation are they that are twice dead.

They have no life now, and they never will:


John 3:36
King James Version

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Universal salvation is not a Bible Doctrine, and it is not a Christian Doctrine. In order for a doctrine to be a Bible Doctrine and a Christian Doctrine it must agree with the Word of God itself. Universal salvation teaches life for those who Christ Himself said would never have it, which is the exact opposite of the teaching of Christ. They rely on out-of-context proof texts which is why they never respond to posts that show their proof texts misapplied.

And it is interesting to note that some of them cannot even publicly declare what type of Christian Fellowship they attend. This is similar to those who say they are sinless: they don't belong to a church because there is no Christian Church that teaches what they do.

While there are fellowships that teach universal salvation that might be recognized as Christian, there has been an admission that most who embrace this doctrine attend fellowships that do not teach universal salvation.

Does the term "red flag" come to mind?

If your doctrine is something so outside of the norm that you cannot find a fellowship to worship in—wouldn't that be a hint that maybe your doctrine is in error?


Continued...

 

[tampasteve]

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