Re-Thinking Hell

[wendykvw]

He did not question the bible. He questioned the Roman Catholic church's interpretation of the bible.
He rejected the selling of indulgences and the teaching of prayers for the dead who were in supposed purgatory. Great revenue producers for the "church" coffers.
Not unlike today where many apostate teachers make millions selling books, cds and such for millions while they beg for new luxury jets to travel for ministry.

Yes I agree.

 

[wendykvw]

Dis our Lord suffer torture for eternity of no end?

Of course not, but He did preach the Gospel to those who died.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I must wonder who you are addressing here.

Go back, read the post, and at the top it lists who it is spoken to.

First, I do not consider myself to be a "liberal Christian." Your opinion may differ.

I didn't say you were a liberal Christian.

This is why addressing what is said saves everyone quite a bit of time.

Second, I believe God gave us our power of "human reasoning." I used mine to examine some doctrines in the the KJV, and found them to be apparently made by that same human reasoning. This reasoning, properly used, should follow the Spirit...and the Spirit says "Come." (Revelation 22:17). Each of us needs to examine, confirm or deny what is offered to us. Remember that ears itched in the past as well as the present, and lies were just as prevalent then as now.

Well, I have tried to suggest that human reasoning is not exactly how spiritual truth is gained by men.

While I do indeed believe that common sense is a gift of God, and that we all need to employ it, it is also true that we are always reliant on God for understanding, both before and after salvation.

Matthew 16:17
King James Version

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


So you can rely on human reasoning, and I'll rely on my Father.

And only one of us will be saying that our Father cannot settle the argument.




God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

If you say so.

Please present the Scripture to support this vague statement. I am not going to chase links, watch videos, or order movies to learn what you believe.

Dis our Lord suffer torture for eternity of no end?

Of course not, because the Son of God was sent by the Father to die on the Cross for our salvation. That is why He said, "It is finished."

What does that have to do with the fact He also taught that men would go into everlasting judgment where the fire is not quenched and their worm dieth not?


God bless.

 

[Receivedgrace]

Of course not, but He did preach the Gospel to those who died.

There were of course two groups of dead.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Tell me, how can Jesus the Christ leave sins in "hell" when there is no record in the Bible of the creation of such a place?

Look no further:

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

If you want to argue that because the word Gehenna is not found in the verse then perhaps you would explain why the Lord was speaking about two eternal judgments for the lost.


God bless.

 

[Receivedgrace]

Tell me, how can Jesus the Christ leave sins in "hell" when there is no record in the Bible of the creation of such a place? I looked from one end of my KJV to the other, and did not find any such mention. I should think God would have mentioned it...if He had made it.

Yes, we cannot free ourselves from our sins - only God can. However, He states that the dead are freed from their sins (Romans 6:7).

He had no sin of His own so death had no hold over Him.
Only free from our sins if we are dead in Christ. Dead unsaved is still dead. Dead in Christ is alive to the Lord.

 

[Hmm]

Of course not, but He did preach the Gospel to those who died.

Indeed, and why would He have done this if it made no difference? The Harrowing of Hell is something the Orthodox church remembers but most Protestant churches conveniently forget.

 

[wendykvw]

There were of course two groups of dead.

Spiritual death and physical death is not an obstacle for Christ.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Indeed, and why would He have done this if it made no difference? The Harrowing of Hell is something the Orthodox church remembers but most Protestant churches conveniently forget.

It would actually be Hades/Sheol, not Hell that Christ preached the Gospel to.

And as far as liberating the spirits of men from Hades this would have been limited to the Just spirits:


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The Theme of Perfection in Hebrews helps us to understand Salvation in Christ in regards to the difference between being in relationship with God through the covenants of the Old Testament and the New Covenant.

If we cannot explain why it is that the Old Testament Saints died without receiving the promises and without being made perfect in their lifetimes, and explain what those promises are, we might consider if we should be trying to teach people to begin with.


James 3:1
My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.


For if we cannot properly instruct in regards to Eternal Redemption, it is unlikely we can instruct in regards to Eternal Damnation.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Xn

What in Hades is Xn?


God bless.

 

[wendykvw]

Indeed, and why would He have done this if it made no difference? The Harrowing of Hell is something the Orthodox church remembers but most Protestant churches conveniently forget.

Updated: Confusion remains between justification, sanctification and salvation. Many different views among Protestants, Catholic and Orthodox.

 

[public hermit]

What in Hades is Xn?


God bless.

It's shorthand for "Christian;" think in terms of the first letter (x or "chi") in the Greek word Christos. Hence, Xn or Xnty.

 

[Receivedgrace]

Spiritual death and physical death is not an obstacle for Christ.

They were all dead physically. One group was alive Spiritually the other dead spiritually. The dead group is still there and the living group is with Christ.

 

[FineLinen]

Well since Christ took our sins upon Himself, He could leave and did leave them in hell for eternity and return to His former glory.
Lost souls cannot free themselves from their sin so they will be bound to them for all eternity.
God's wrath abides on sin for eternity.

Nonsense! !

There is no time limit on the love & grace of God. NONE.

"The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases.

 

[wendykvw]

They were all dead physically. One group was alive Spiritually the other dead spiritually. The dead group is still there and the living group is with Christ.

Share the verse you have in mind.

 

[Receivedgrace]

Nonsense! !

There is no time limit on the love & grace of God. NONE.

"The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Those who believe not will not see life but will see the wrath of God.

 

[FineLinen]

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Those who believe not will not see life but will see the wrath of God.

Verse 17 follows...

God did not send His Son to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

The Lord iēsous is salvation.

 

[Receivedgrace]

Share the verse you have in mind.

Luke 16:19-31

 

[Der Alte]

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Those who believe not will not see life but will see the wrath of God.

I have been active at this forum since George H.W. Bush was president. I quickly learned that the same arguments and the same usually out-of-context proof texts are endlessly repeated. I started saving my responses so I did not have to re-invent the wheel every time a new member posted the same ol', same ol'. Since I am retired X3 this is pretty much my main thing.
I reviewed every occurrence of the word "aionios."
“αιωνιος/aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T. [2%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “eternal” 42 times in the N.T.[52%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “everlasting” 25 times in the N.T.[34.7%]
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, [38.8% of total] Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following 26 verses “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never means eternity/eternal” because a few times they refer to things which are not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. Jesus never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not/could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal.” Lk 1:33, John 6:58, 10:28, 3:15, 3:16, 5:29, 3:36, 4:14, 6:27, 8:51

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal, no end.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life cuding vovally opposing the government in power is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite age,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

[Character Limit. Continued next post]