Re-Thinking Hell

[P1LGR1M]

It's not they will prepare themselves, it's that God will prepare them, purify them, convince them et al. In Christian universalism, it's all God and Christ. A common objection to universalism is that it denies free will, if people are drawn to Christ despite their initial rejection.

I quoted what she said, and that is what I responded to.

There is no "free will" in a salvific context because the natural man has no inherent ability to understand the spiritual things of God. God "prepares" the natural mind by enlightening the natural man to truth, and it is then that man responds within his "will."

The common objection has no relevance to what I have said or will say. Reread what she said, and then tell me I improperly addressed it.


God bless.

 

[Der Alte]

Nonetheless many Christians consider what Graham said to be heresy. Like in the article I just posted. John MacArthur went on quite a tirade.
I don't have a transcript for this one. He get's to Billy Graham at 2:12.

Good for old Johnny. Sorry one guy is NOT many.

 

[P1LGR1M]

He created all humankind, and will not allow an evil serpent to steal, kill and destroy it...

I agree that "the devil made me do it" isn't going to pan out for those who stand before God at the Great White Throne, and that mankind will be judged based on decisions they make, not because Satan left them no opportunity to be saved.

Their fate, though, will be the same:


Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Universal salvation teaches Christ simply didn't know what He was talking about.

So again, will the devil and his angels be saved as well?

So, at this point, it isn't fallible people, who have the definitive answer to the finished work of Christ, it is the will of the Father.

I agree, but I am not sure how you can say you do when you deny the very teachings of Scripture which are given to us that we might know the Will of God.

Fallible or no—Scripture was given to us so we can know, not so we can cherry-pick our way through Scripture and prooftext the belief systems we want to believe.

"And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ." -Ephesians 1:10

Correct: the saints that are now in Heaven and the saints that will be saved in the future who still reside upon the earth when 1) the Millennial Kingdom is established and 2) when the Eternal State is established.

Universal salvation lends itself to the corrupt nature of this world being redeemed, and that is not going to happen. It will be destroyed.


God bless.

 

[wendykvw]

Interesting. I consider Graham's view to be borderline universalist. I know it appeals to universalists, whereas many other Christians would call it heresy.

"I think there's the Body of Christ, which comes from all the Christian groups around the world. Or outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ" - Billy Graham (1997).

Graham has been accused of being a universalist. I don't believe that he was, but like many who reject universalism, they unknowingly speak of it.

 

[P1LGR1M]

What do you base that on?

It's rather obvious, is it not.

Do you know of a major Baptist faith that teaches universal salvation?

And I don't mean groups that tack "Baptist" on to their name.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Baptist are fallible, if you think they are infallible you completely missed my point.

Not sure how you can 1) think I am trying to defend Baptists (though I do attend a Baptist Church, and would rather see people going to one of those than any other denomination out there) or 2) that I have missed your point, lol.

Still, not a single address of the original post I addressed, or the error pointed out in them. I showed how you improperly used prooftexts out of context to support your teaching, so it is up to you to show why I myself was in error.


God bless.

 

[wendykvw]

Not according to Paul...

Rom 9
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I show compassion.” 16 So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I raised you up, in order to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,

What is your personal interpretation? Predestination, and only a few chosen for salvation? Is that what you think Paul is teaching?

 

[wendykvw]

@[URL='https://www.christianforums.com/members/p1lgr1m.310212/']P1LGR1M[/URL]


Moses requested God to blot his name out of the book of life, do you believe Moses was asking to go to hell for all eternity?


The Bible is an ancient book and hyperbolic expressions are used consistently. It is not a Steven King Horror Novel.

For the first 5 centuries of the Early Church, there were 6 theological schools. Four taught the duration of punishment was limited. One school in Ephesus taught conditionalism, and in Cartridge, one taught eternal torment.

"Aionios is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself…The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. "

"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
Young's Literal Translation. Matthew 25:46

Notice that those in Matthew 25:46 are "believers" who did not focus on love and compassion.

The Apostle Paul teaches the unification of all creation in the book of Ephesians: the mystery of God’s plan, (bringing to completion) the salvation of His entire creation. Paul spoke like a Universalist.

"Also to enlighten all men and make plain to them what is the plan [regarding the Gentiles and providing for the salvation of all men] of the mystery kept hidden through the ages and concealed until now in [the mind of] God Who created all things by Christ Jesus." Eph 3:9


The nation of Isreal failed to understand God's mission was to redeem all creation

• When Christ was on Earth the nation of Israel failed to recognize Christ as the God of Abraham. Isacc and Jacob.
• They also failed to understand that Christ was the savior of the world.
• Like many Christians today, Israel had spiritual pride.
• Spiritual pride always leads people to believe that God will not redeem those who they believe are unclean, unrighteous, or unsalvagable.

Christ came to warn the "self-righteous" that they will most likely be on the outside begging at the door to come in...Christ warned "believers" and welcomed those who were considered unworthy of the promised gift of redemption. He welcomed prostitutes and others who the religious community believed were unworthy. Much like Christianity today.

"Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’ “But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from." Luke 13:25

The final outcome is not a "majority" remaining in ignorance and wickedness in hell. The good news is the final outcome....God has the Victory, transforming and restoring His creation. Everything the devil destroyed will be unified under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

 

[P1LGR1M]

It's more like universalism teaches that scripture doesn't mean what certain doctrine says it means. In other words, it's their doctrinal view based on scripture vs the other two Christian doctrinal views based on scripture.

No, it's a matter that it teaches Scripture doesn't mean what is explicitly stated.

Two outcomes for man are given, eternal life and eternal damnation.

Nothing in Scripture teaches a purgatorial cleansing through which those said to go into everlasting separation from God are somehow then brought into a right relationship with God.

The question regarding ainios is whether it means eternal or age. In the Christian universalist view, there are those who will experience an age united with Christ, and those who will an experience an age of purifying fire which will lead them to come to Christ.

So Eternal and everlasting life is an age?

Christ did not, through His One offering, make those that have been set apart by His One Offering once and for all—complete in regards to remission of sins? (Hebrews 10:14).

It's just a matter of context, and the context is usually pretty clear. That is why I spent so much time going through the proof texts used to teach universal salvation in the first place.

Would you like to address those? Instead of playing devil's advocate for universal salvation?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

What is your personal interpretation? Predestination, and only a few chosen for salvation? Is that what you think Paul is teaching?

There you go again, trying to state what you want me to believe in order to help yourself in the teaching you offer.

Shame, shame...

 

[Der Alte]

What is your personal interpretation? Predestination, and only a few chosen for salvation? Is that what you think Paul is teaching?

Jesus said twice that many are called but few are chosen.

Matthew 20:16
(16) So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Matthew 22:14
(14) For many are called, but few are chosen.​

In this passage Jesus said that He would say to many I never knew you depart from me you that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

 

[Receivedgrace]

@[URL='https://www.christianforums.com/members/p1lgr1m.310212/']P1LGR1M[/URL]


Moses requested God to blot his name out of the book of life, do you believe Moses was asking to go to hell for all eternity?


The Bible is an ancient book and hyperbolic expressions are used consistently. It is not a Steven King Horror Novel.

Yes Moses was willing to sacrifice himself for Israel. Just a Paul was in the NT.

The bible for your information is Gods eternal word. God has proclaimed it and will cause it to come to pass.
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Even Stephen King could not imagine the total horror of being somewhere in the complete absence of the presence of God.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I think there's the body of Christ which comes from all the Christian groups around the world, or outside the Christian groups.

No, I don't think he went this far in the article I read.

I disagree with him entirely, because being a part of the Body of Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, requires being placed in Christ.

I think that everybody that loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the body of Christ.

Disagree.

Those who are not baptized into Christ are not members of the body of Christ.


Romans 8:9
King James Version

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


This is why Christ's teaching in John 14:17 is critical: there is a difference between the filling of the Spirit and the eternal indwelling that began at Pentecost. It was not going on prior to Christ's ministry and it was not going on during His ministry. The Promised Spirit (Ezekiel 36:27) simly could not come until after Christ returned to His Father's House (John 16:7, john 7:38-39).

We simply cannot alter what Christ has stated so clearly.

Whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the body of Christ because they've been called by God.

Again, I have to disagree.

You cannot have those that reject Christ as being born-again believers in Christ. That is something that shouldn't even have to be stated.

Calling Jesus Christ "a great prophet (though not the most important one)" isn't having faith in Christ.

Still awaiting God to send the Messiah is not having faith in Christ.

It is belief in His Death, burial, and Resurrection that we are commanded to believe in. This is "eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood."

They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts they need something that they don't have and they turn to the only light they have and I think they're saved and they're going to be with us in heaven."

This I agree with: I do believe there are those who have only the testimony of Creation and the internal witness God gives every man to show them they are in need of God.

I believe they can be temporally justified just as the Old Testament Saints were, but like they, the Old Testament Saints, when they die they will go to Hades/Sheol to await judgment. Just as the Old Testament Saints went to Hades/Sheol to await Eternal Redemption through the Cross and Resurrection of Christ.

"Yes it is because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, have never heard of Jesus but they've believed in their hearts that there is a God and they tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived."

Again, this is due to the testimony of Creation and the internal witness of God.

I too believe there are many people like that in the world. but they are not members of the Body of Christ.

"This is fantastic. I'm so thrilled to hear you say that. There's a wideness in God's mercy." Dr. Graham: "There is. There definitely is."

I guess someone like Schuller would be pleased to hear someone viewed as at least one of the greatest evangelists ever say this.

Me, I'm a little disappointed because what I remember from the article I read didn't go to the lengths he goes to here.

God bless.

 

[wendykvw]

Yes Moses was willing to sacrifice himself for Israel. Just a Paul was in the NT.

The bible for your information is Gods eternal word. God has proclaimed it and will cause it to come to pass.
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Even Stephen King could not imagine the total horror of being somewhere in the complete absence of the presence of God.

Moses was asking to burn in hell?

 

[wendykvw]

Jesus said twice that many are called but few are chosen.

Matthew 20:16
(16) So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Matthew 22:14
(14) For many are called, but few are chosen.​

In this passage Jesus said that He would say to many I never knew you depart from me you that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Good points, many who practiced religious activities will be outside the door, unprepared for the Kingdom of God. Salvation is secure, sanctification is not complete and they will be purified by the fire.

 

[wendykvw]

There you go again, trying to state what you want me to believe in order to help yourself in the teaching you offer.

Shame, shame...

This is formed as a question. And I believe was not directed to you. You are free to believe as your Baptist faith teaches.

 

[wendykvw]

Not found in the Bible.
You are arguing against another false teaching,
that most of mankind is created only to be
destroyed, which you have called the 'traditional view'. The Bible doesn't support that either.
Justice For The Poor-Reforming the Traditional View of Salvation

The word trinity is not found in the Bible. I believe in the trinity, do you?

 

[P1LGR1M]

This is what a universalist said:

It's not they will prepare themselves, it's that God will prepare them, purify them, convince them et al. In Christian universalism, it's all God and Christ. A common objection to universalism is that it denies free will, if people are drawn to Christ despite their initial rejection.

This is what a universalist said:

Fact: The universalist view does not teach wickedness is rewarded. Universalism teaches that God is unwilling any perish and is willing to wait for all to come to repentance and the knowledge of the truth. Universalism has a higher view of "sanctification". All must prepare for the Kingdom of God. Those who are not ready will enter the fire of Gehenna. This includes "believers".

I see nothing in Scripture that teaches man can prepare for the Kingdom of God.

Again, this is a works-based fiction.


God bless.

 

[Der Alte]

Good points, many who practiced religious activities will be outside the door, unprepared for the Kingdom of God. Salvation is secure, sanctification is not complete and they will be purified by the fire.

WRONG! Nothing in the three vss. I quoted support this false conclusion.
Please explain to me how you get "they will be purified by fire" from "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity?" When Jesus says "never" He means "never" not "some day!"
Do you believe that someone can live their life like the devil and when they die Jesus zaps them with a little fire and presto, chango they are saved?

 

[wendykvw]

Not sure how you can 1) think I am trying to defend Baptists (though I do attend a Baptist Church, and would rather see people going to one of those than any other denomination out there) or 2) that I have missed your point, lol.

Still, not a single address of the original post I addressed, or the error pointed out in them. I showed how you improperly used prooftexts out of context to support your teaching, so it is up to you to show why I myself was in error.


God bless.

You view scripture through the lens of Baptist interpretation, just as I did at one time. Bible ping pong as I stated leads to the road Nowhere.