Re-Thinking Hell

[P1LGR1M]

We could play bible ping pong all day and every day.

Not likely. You will end up responding to my posts with posts like this one. If you had the ability to address the points and Scripture thus far given you would have done so.

Here is the problem with bible ping pong:

Scripture has very little to do with one’s commitment to the Lord or reverence for His word and everything to do with the theological presuppositions or model one holds to.

Seriously?

Perhaps, if you take up the challenge to discuss the doctrine from Scripture, you might find that my own Theology does not follow the Theological Systems of Modern Christendom.

The real problem with Bible Pong is that those who are not capable of properly handling the Word of God always ignore passages presented to support a view adn then go immediately to their next prooftext.

If one accepts that God will punish people eternally in hell, passages are interpreted one way;

I reject the Liberal view that Scripture has many interpretations.

And I present the one view that I see Scripture as presenting.

And this is the view that is held by most because it is the only one that can be reconciled to all of Scripture and not have to rely on vague proof texts that are yanked out of their context.

if it is believed God will eventually annihilate the wicked, passages are interpreted another way;

Those who take this view have to ignore and make obsolete just as much Scripture as the Universalist does.

It has as a primary basis of error the incorrect belief in the trichotomous nature of man, that he is body, soul, and spirit.

Where do you stand on that? Your own use of the word "soul" seems to show you have embraced a trichotomous view. How that plays into your view of universal salvation remains to be seen, but it should be interesting.

and if one holds that all will eventually be saved, there is yet a third possibility( restoration hell).

Not if we maintain the consistency of Scripture, do not ignore what Scripture states clearly, and try to prooftext our positions with vague references.

Is Scripture in error here...


Daniel 12:1-2
King James Version

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Funny, but I just don't see the same resurrection for these two groups.

And I don't recall Christ teaching one type of Resurrection either:


John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Where exactly, after the Great White Throne, do you base your view that everyone will receive the Resurrection unto Life?


Continued...

 

[Minister Monardo]

Part of the reason for the rethinking of hell is the increasing realisation that Jesus didn't speak about Hell at all.

Why would He?
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

All of these mean different things but are all translated as Hell, a word derived from the "hel" in Norse mythology in most English Bible translations.

The word Justice, or Righteous Judgment would
bring the results you are looking for.
Who made up the term Restorative Justice?

 

[P1LGR1M]

While some in this life may not be "in Christ" the eventual promise and will of God is to bring all people to Christ. You say God cannot do this.....I wholeheartedly disagree with your interpretation.

You keep attributing things to me that I have never said.

Why is that?

As a matter of fact, I stand apart from most in my view that God has consistently judged men based on the revelation He has provided them, as well as judging them based on their mental capacity to understand. It was long after I embraced this view that I read of Billy Graham's view which is somewhat similar to my own. That shocked a lot of people, but I understood what he was saying.

Now, as an apologist and an author, would you mind telling me why a person who has not professed faith in Christ might just end up in Heaven?

I'd like your view, but I'll let you know why I agree (at least in part) with Billy Graham: because not a single Old Testament Saint, including the disciples before their conversion on the Day of Pentecost—professed faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Why? Well, first, He had not taken up residence in human flesh and was still prophesied to come until He actually did.

Second, He had not died and arose again that men might place faith in the Gospel.

Third, the Gospel was a Mystery that was not revealed to the sons of men (and that is all-inclusive) in past ages.

That should be sufficient to kick-start that particular discussion and how it applies to Eternal Damnation.

And the fact remains that despite the fact that there will be those who benefit from the grace of God who have not placed specific faith in Jesus Christ—that does not negate the fact that Scripture teaches only two resurrections: unto life, and unto eternal damnation.

I'd be curious to know if you think the devil and his minions will also be saved.


Continued...

 

[ozso]

More correctly, "A majority of those who hold to a restoration view of hell departed from a traditional background."

What do you base that on?

 

[Minister Monardo]

Restorative justice is the final outcome.

Not found in the Bible.
You are arguing against another false teaching,
that most of mankind is created only to be
destroyed, which you have called the 'traditional view'. The Bible doesn't support that either.
Justice For The Poor-Reforming the Traditional View of Salvation

 

[wendykvw]

And...?

Many atheists say "I was a Christian for __________ years."

Seeing that you have rejected what has been held by Baptists it calls into question whether you were a Baptist at all. Probably better to say "I attended Baptist Churches for 30 years."




More correctly, "A majority of those who hold to a restoration view of hell departed from a traditional background."



And I quote:



You might want to get better acquainted with what it is I actually believe before drawing conclusions.




A Mormon can say the same thing. A Jehovah's Witness can say the same thing.

But what is lacking to this long post that seems to have yourself as the central focus—is Scripture supporting the Universalism view, or an address of the Scripture and points already given in this thread by myself.

I'm really not interested in the pedigrees of my antagonists, only the basis for their belief. Perhaps in the future you can try to get in a little discussion of the subject from more than just your own view.




Can you show me where I ridiculed someone?




Can you show me where I said someone's faith was inferior to my own?



Oh, so my position is uninformed, is it? lol

You can have the right to say that once you address my posts.

I can already see from what you say in this that you are lacking in some very basic Bible Principles. If you would care to discuss Eternal Damnation versus Universalism, please, let me know.


Continued...

Baptist are fallible, if you think they are infallible you completely missed my point.

 

[P1LGR1M]

It is often asserted that scripture is very clear, but if it is so clear, we would not see so many differing opinions among scholars and denominational interpretations of scripture.

Nonsense.

We see so many differing opinions because first, people seem to think these people are "expert" to begin with, and secondly—people are unwilling to admit error.

Would you be willing to admit that man is dichotomous if you held a trichotomous view and it was shown to you in Scripture that cannot be denied?

I doubt it.

Each has a different theological viewpoint on every major doctrine within the Christian Faith.

And only one is right.

Scripture has a specific intent as to meaning when it was given. While we might see differing application in Prophecy (such as the Coming of Christ and application to the differing Comings) that does not give license to take a position that it's okay for some to believe one thing and another to believe another.

Now to make sure I am clear, I am not saying that those who hold to error cannot be saved, because it is quite obvious believers (including your experts) can be in error yet sincere believers.

Here are a few samples:

1. To a Roman Catholic Saving Grace is communicated through the seven sacraments.

2. To the Lutheran Grace is through faith alone.

3. For an Anabaptist Sacraments are only symbols and do not provide saving grace.

4. Those of a Reformed view see Salvation as determined by God, and not by human will.

5. To an Armenian Salvation is determined by human free will

Not sure why you would think this is relevant, seeing that they historically teach Eternal Damnation.

I find error in all of these groups, yet most of them are in agreement on essential doctrine.

Just to touch on one point of error, men are not saved by faith alone: men are saved by grace alone, through faith.

And the contention between Catholics and Protestants has become so muddied due to the "experts" that few are able to distinguish between the Doctrine of Eternal Redemption and the Doctrine of Justification.

Many today have exchanged the truth that we are saved by grace through faith with "We are saved by faith through grace" and they cannot even understand the significance of that error.

Reality:
Many denominations, many interpretations. All read the same book, the bible.

Problem:
Beginning in the early church there have always been varied and differing opinions. There has never been a consensus.

And beginning in the early Church that error was dealt with. And how it was dealt with gives us both the example and the basis for dealing with error today.

But if someone has embraced the notion that there are numerous views that can be right, or at least accepted by God—it's no wonder Doctrinal Purity is out the window for most groups.


Continued...

 

[ozso]

As a matter of fact, I stand apart from most in my view that God has consistently judged men based on the revelation He has provided them, as well as judging them based on their mental capacity to understand. It was long after I embraced this view that I read of Billy Graham's view which is somewhat similar to my own. That shocked a lot of people, but I understood what he was saying

Interesting. I consider Graham's view to be borderline universalist. I know it appeals to universalists, whereas many other Christians would call it heresy.

"I think there's the Body of Christ, which comes from all the Christian groups around the world. Or outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ" - Billy Graham (1997).

 

[P1LGR1M]

Fact: The universalist view does not teach wickedness is rewarded. Universalism teaches that God is unwilling any perish and is willing to wait for all to come to repentance and the knowledge of the truth.

Universalism teaches that Scripture doesn't mean what it says.


Revelation 20:12-15
King James Version

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Since the current creation passes away immediately after the dead are judged and cast into the Lake of Fire, where and when exactly is it that you think redemption takes place for the dead?


Revelation 21:8
King James Version

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


What is the duration of the damnation Christ taught? Did He teach the fires are eventually quenched? Does He teach their worm eventually dies?

How is it that universalists have a better grasp of the language of Christ than Christ Himself did?

One of the problems the universal salvation view creates is that Christ contrasted Eternal Life with Eternal damnation, and if eternal damnation is not forever—it would be equally true Eternal Life is not everlasting either.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Interesting. I consider Graham's view to be borderline universalist. I know it appeals to universalists, whereas many other Christians would call it heresy.

"I think there's the Body of Christ, which comes from all the Christian groups around the world. Or outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ" - Billy Graham (1997).

I appreciate you putting the quote in there directly, I seldom watch videos posted.

This quote doesn't go to the length I saw in the article I read, where he states he believes those who are not in the body of Christ will enter Heaven. To be in the Body one must be born again. Being in Christ is accomplished by Christ baptizing believers into Himself. He indwells us, we are in Him.

He (Graham) implied there would be those who were not in Christ during their lifetimes who would make it into Heaven. I believe this as well because we have an entire Old Testament filled with believers who did not profess faith in Jesus Christ. Some had faith in the Promised Messiah/Christ, but that is not the same as specifically trusting in the Life, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus the Christ. If it were then all Jews who have rejected Jesus Christ and are still awaiting the coming of Messiah would be born again.

There are people today who do not get the chance to trust Christ through no fault of their own. Babies murdered in the womb are the best example. but think of the Muslim indoctrinated from birth to reject Christ as Savior. I believe there will be Muslims who sincerely want to do the will of God and that God will judge them based on the revelation they do receive. They will not be born again, nor will they go to Heaven at death, but, they will be judged at the Great White Throne. I say this because I can speculate on a scenario of someone living in a culture that is devoid of the Gospel and that God can still use the testimony of Creation and the internal witness He provides all men.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Universalism has a higher view of "sanctification".

I'm sorry, but I cannot see a doctrine that has no basis in Scripture and negates what is in Scripture as a "higher view."

All must prepare for the Kingdom of God.

Sorry, but entering the Kingdom of God is not something men "prepare themselves for."

This conflicts with the truth that natural men cannot receive nor perceive the spiritual things of God:


1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


It conflicts with one of the most basic principles we have:


Romans 3:10-12
King James Version

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Sure, there are people who mistakenly negate Scripture because they think they understood what Arminius taught, but—they are in error.

There's no two sides to this coin: the natural man cannot prepare himself for the Kingdom of God.


Continued...

 

[ozso]

Universalism teaches that Scripture doesn't mean what it says.


Revelation 20:12-15
King James Version

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Since the current creation passes away immediately after the dead are judged and cast into the Lake of Fire, where and when exactly is it that you think redemption takes place for the dead?


Revelation 21:8
King James Version

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


What is the duration of the damnation Christ taught? Did He teach the fires are eventually quenched? Does He teach their worm eventually dies?

How is it that universalists have a better grasp of the language of Christ than Christ Himself did?

One of the problems the universal salvation view creates is that Christ contrasted Eternal Life with Eternal damnation, and if eternal damnation is not forever—it would be equally true Eternal Life is not everlasting either.


Continued...

It's more like universalism teaches that scripture doesn't mean what certain doctrine says it means. In other words, it's their doctrinal view based on scripture vs the other two Christian doctrinal views based on scripture.

The question regarding ainios is whether it means eternal or age. In the Christian universalist view, there are those who will experience an age united with Christ, and those who will an experience an age of purifying fire which will lead them to come to Christ.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Those who are not ready will enter the fire of Gehenna.

You are teaching works-based religion when you teach men can "prepare themselves for the Kingdom of God.

Sadly, you don't seem to understand that there has never been a single man apart from Jesus Christ that could "prepare for the Kingdom of God."

This is a "Well, if you do the right things then you will not have to go to Hell" teaching.

And it is false.

This includes "believers". They do not lose salvation. See #64

Again, you are in error: Their works are tried, not the individuals. We are not said to go into torment, nor is it said that this torment would be everlasting.

And don't you think I have enough to deal with trying to address your autobiography than to ask me to chase down something you said in another post?




Continued...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Restorative justice is the final outcome.

Not according to Paul...

Rom 9
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I show compassion.” 16 So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I raised you up, in order to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,

 

[Der Alte]

Interesting. I consider Graham's view to be borderline universalist. I know it appeals to universalists, whereas many other Christians would call it heresy.
"I think there's the Body of Christ, which comes from all the Christian groups around the world. Or outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ" - Billy Graham (1997).
[Video omitted]

Billy Graham may have had these verses in mind when he made this statement.

Romans 2:14-15
(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
(15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another​

 

[ozso]

I appreciate you putting the quote in there directly, I seldom watch videos posted.

This quote doesn't go to the length I saw in the article I read, where he states he believes those who are not in the body of Christ will enter Heaven. To be in the Body one must be born again. Being in Christ is accomplished by Christ baptizing believers into Himself. He indwells us, we are in Him.

He (Graham) implied there would be those who were not in Christ during their lifetimes who would make it into Heaven. I believe this as well because we have an entire Old Testament filled with believers who did not profess faith in Jesus Christ. Some had faith in the Promised Messiah/Christ, but that is not the same as specifically trusting in the Life, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus the Christ. If it were then all Jews who have rejected Jesus Christ and are still awaiting the coming of Messiah would be born again.

There are people today who do not get the chance to trust Christ through no fault of their own. Babies murdered in the womb are the best example. but think of the Muslim indoctrinated from birth to reject Christ as Savior. I believe there will be Muslims who sincerely want to do the will of God and that God will judge them based on the revelation they do receive. They will not be born again, nor will they go to Heaven at death, but, they will be judged at the Great White Throne. I say this because I can speculate on a scenario of someone living in a culture that is devoid of the Gospel and that God can still use the testimony of Creation and the internal witness He provides all men.

I don't think I've gotten around to reading the article you're referring to but I know where to find it.

Below is a full transcript of his conversation with Schuller. Note the heading of it.

"Billy Graham Denies the True Gospel Interviewed by Robert Schuller on Hour of Power Billy Graham on the ‘Hour of Power’ show saying that people can get to Heaven another way besides through hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and then repenting and believing the Gospel. He basically says that ‘good’ and ‘sincere’ people who know nothing about Christ are on their way to Heaven."

Dr. Schuller: "Tell me, what is the future of Christianity?"

Dr. Graham: "Well, Christianity and being a true believer, you know, I think there's the body of Christ which comes from all the Christian groups around the world, or outside the Christian groups. I think that everybody that loves Christ or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. What God is doing today is calling people out of the world for His name. Whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the body of Christ because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts they need something that they don't have and they turn to the only light they have and I think they're saved and they're going to be with us in heaven."

Dr. Schuller: "What I hear you saying is that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into a human heart and soul and life even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?"

Dr. Graham: "Yes it is because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, have never heard of Jesus but they've believed in their hearts that there is a God and they tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived."

Dr. Schuller: "This is fantastic. I'm so thrilled to hear you say that. There's a wideness in God's mercy." Dr. Graham: "There is. There definitely is."

https://annointing.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/billy-graham-denies-the-true-gospel.pdf

 

[ozso]

Billy Graham may have had these verses in mind when he made this statement.

Romans 2:14-15
(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
(15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another​

Nonetheless many Christians consider what Graham said to be heresy. Like in the article I just posted. John MacArthur went on quite a tirade.

I don't have a transcript for this one. He get's to Billy Graham at 2:12.

 

[P1LGR1M]

God is patient, long-suffering and full of love, mercy, and grace. He has an unlimited supply. He is the great physician, who can heal the blind, cure the sick, and transform the most wayward of all sons, and daughters.

1. This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4

Sure, God wants all men to be saved, but that doesn't change the fact that all men will not be saved.

Here is one of the posts given to deny your teaching:

2 Peter 2
King James Version

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


The false teacher of today is the modern equivalent of the false prophet of the Old Testament. Is their destruction temporary?

It is if you buy into the Universal gospel that men and women do not need to be born again according to the commandment of God. But let's see what Peter thinks about false teachers and their destruction:


17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

According to your teaching, the mist of darkness is not reserved forever.

God is patient, long-suffering and full of love, mercy, and grace. He has an unlimited supply. He is the great physician, who can heal the blind, cure the sick, and transform the most wayward of all sons, and daughters.

1. This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4
2. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Pt 3:9

I spent quite a bit of time addressing your prooftexts in the other post and you did not bother to address my responses.

You want to play Bible Pong because that is your only recourse.


1 Timothy 2
King James Version

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


That God wants all men to be saved doesn't equate to "all men will be saved."

What it does indicate is that not all men are saved, hence the need for supplication, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks.


Continued...

 

[ozso]

You are teaching works-based religion when you teach men can "prepare themselves for the Kingdom of God.

Sadly, you don't seem to understand that there has never been a single man apart from Jesus Christ that could "prepare for the Kingdom of God."

This is a "Well, if you do the right things then you will not have to go to Hell" teaching.

And it is false.




Again, you are in error: Their works are tried, not the individuals. We are not said to go into torment, nor is it said that this torment would be everlasting.

And don't you think I have enough to deal with trying to address your autobiography than to ask me to chase down something you said in another post?




Continued...

It's not they will prepare themselves, it's that God will prepare them, purify them, convince them et al. In Christian universalism, it's all God and Christ. A common objection to universalism is that it denies free will, if people are drawn to Christ despite their initial rejection.

 

[P1LGR1M]

It is easy to fall into the mindset that there is no hope for anyone because we tend to attribute human weakness to God. In Universalism wickedness will be cured in the fullness of time.

Who says or teaches "there is no hope for anyone?"

This is a false argument offered to support your view.

Nobody believes that there is no hope for anyone.

• “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.”~Isaiah 55:9

And universal salvation is found or supported by this statement...how?

“He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed, miracles that cannot be counted. ~Job 5:9

And universal salvation is found or supported by this statement...how?

It is not possible for a soul to resist God forever, for one simple reason: God loves all He created.

I agree, but then, they don't need to resist forever, they just need to resist during their lifetimes:


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
King James Version

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Jude 7
King James Version

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


There are only two outcomes for mankind, two resurrections, and two conditions of life or death. All os mankind is born "dead" because they have not the Life of Christ. One can receive that only by being Baptized into Christ and thus receiving the Eternal Life He came to bestow upon men.


Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


These are the two baptisms of Christ: eternal life, and eternal judgment.

The teaching of universal salvation teaching denies that this fire is everlasting and in so doing denies the teaching of Christ.

When they can provide Scripture that actually states that Eternal Judgment is not everlasting then they might have something to go on. Until then this doctrine is still assigned to cults and those who have been deceived by them.


Continued...