Re-Thinking Hell

[Receivedgrace]

Why couldn't someone hold to Baptist doctrine, without believing in eternal conscious torment?

The only question that matters is do they believe in the Christ of the bible or one of their own imaginations. Does what they believe about one doctrine reveal what they really believe about others?

 

[GTW27]

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into heaven’s kingdom. It is only those who persist in doing the will of my heavenly Father. On the day of judgment many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, don’t you remember us? Didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we cast out demons and do many miracles in your name?’ But I will have to say to them, ‘Go away from me, you lawless rebels! I’ve never been joined to you!’ Everyone who hears my teaching and applies it to his life can be compared to a wise man who built his house on an unshakable foundation. When the rains fell and the flood came, with fierce winds beating upon his house, it stood firm because of its strong foundation. But everyone who hears my teaching and does not apply it to his life can be compared to a foolish man who built his house on sand. When it rained and rained and the flood came, with wind and waves beating upon his house, it collapsed and was swept away. ~TPT

Blessings FineLinen! I have a challenge for you today, if you are willing to accept it. You have brought these words, "I've never been joined to you!" when the true words are, I never knew you. It appears that you quote a lot of other men(universalist), in trying to prove this falsehood, mixed with a little scripture. My challenge to you is for you to only bring your own words, or scripture for a period of time. This would be a lesson to grow by, as we all will give account for our own words, and not of another. Mr McDonald will not be standing next to you then. Do you know why Jesus said, I never knew you? For me, I only bring what my Father gives me to bring,so that people might not perish.

 

[ozso]

WRONG! Nothing in the three vss. I quoted support this false conclusion.
Please explain to me how you get "they will be purified by fire" from "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity?" When Jesus says "never" He means "never" not "some day!"
Do you believe that someone can live their life like the devil and when they die Jesus zaps them with a little fire and presto, chango they are saved?

Isn't that how salvation works? Someone is living like the devil and then presto chango they are saved?

 

[Der Alte]

Why couldn't someone hold to Baptist doctrine, without believing in eternal conscious torment?

Baptists believe in a real heaven and hell. Those who have been saved will live eternally in the presence of God in heaven, and those who die without being saved will go to hell.​

Isn't that how salvation works? Someone is living like the devil and then presto chango they are saved?

Is that what you think?

 

[ozso]

The only question that matters is do they believe in the Christ of the bible or one of their own imaginations.

The ones I know of believe in the Christ of the Bible.

Does what they believe about one doctrine reveal what they really believe about others?

That depends on the doctrine. I don't see how universalism conflicts with other orthodox doctrine.

 

[ozso]

Baptists believe in a real heaven and hell. Those who have been saved will live eternally in the presence of God in heaven, and those who die without being saved will go to hell.

That's also what Christian universalists believe.

Is that what you think?

Haven't you ever witnessed a sinner's miraculous conversion?

 

[Der Alte]

That's also what Christian universalists believe.

You one of those?

Haven't you ever witnessed a sinner's miraculous conversion?

Never after death!

 

[LightLoveHope]

Restorative justice is the final outcome.

I agree that a lot of hell fire and brimestone preaching dwelt on unless you bless the church you are doomed to eternal torture.

If one wants to be honest about redemption and following Jesus, statistically few ever do this.
On just this basis, the majority are in hell being tortured for all eternity for at most 70 years of lostness and sinning. There is a real sense of injustice in this proposition.

In Ezekiel though he says this

But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
Eze 18:24

Remembering of someone only happens if they are righteous, and death is the end of the unfaithful.

If all sinners are tortured for all eternity, they are remember and their evil is held eternally before them and all who see them. But this is not the principle of the future of those who do evil. Those who do evil are like chaff.

Not so the wicked! They are like chaff that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
Psalm 1:4-5

One aspect of sinners is the idea of revenge and disproportionate suffering. Sinners love to see those they hate suffer. God on the other hand just destroys them.

The church as an institution gets lots of money from those who can literally buy their way out of hell and suffering. So what is better, a temporary hell out of which relatives can be bought with prayers and donations to the church. Do you think unbelievers who preach this will be stopped because it is heresy or evil or showing they do not know Jesus? They are unbelievers, so getting wealth now is literally all they care about, stuff the idiots who are giving to the church.

What about doom preachers who want a following? Tomorrow the world will end, so sell all you have and give it to me so I can build the ark of glory to God. All through history since Jesus guys have preached this and people have listened and given. If you want a money spinner, it gets folks to realise all their cash and give it away. So what if they are destitute afterwards, more fool them.

Death is the destruction of our physical bodies. Jesus says we should fear God who can destroy our souls in the lake of fire. The key word there is destroy.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 10:28

If Jesus meant eternal life with torture, where is the destruction of the soul, that is eternity for the soul but torment. And in all the traditions of torment, who is doing the torturing? Demons.

Odd that. The enemies of God are given the job to exact punishment on sinners as their job. No where in scripture is this pictured, but it is in the dreams and hallucinations of sinners who claim demons torment them. One simple spiritual reality, is the Holy Spirit rules over demons and evil, and to be tormented by demons means the person being tormented in not in the Lord. But if you want to listen to demonic stories rather than scripture, your end is in your own hands, and will not be pleasant.

God bless you

 

[Der Alte]

I agree that a lot of hell fire and brimestone preaching dwelt on unless you bless the church you are doomed to eternal torture.
If one wants to be honest about redemption and following Jesus, statistically few ever do this.
On just this basis, the majority are in hell being tortured for all eternity for at most 70 years of lostness and sinning. There is a real sense of injustice in this proposition.
In Ezekiel though he says this
But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
Eze 18:24
Remembering of someone only happens if they are righteous, and death is the end of the unfaithful.
If all sinners are tortured for all eternity, they are remember and their evil is held eternally before them and all who see them. But this is not the principle of the future of those who do evil. Those who do evil are like chaff.
Not so the wicked! They are like chaff that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
Psalm 1:4-5
One aspect of sinners is the idea of revenge and disproportionate suffering. Sinners love to see those they hate suffer. God on the other hand just destroys them.
The church as an institution gets lots of money from those who can literally buy their way out of hell and suffering. So what is better, a temporary hell out of which relatives can be bought with prayers and donations to the church. Do you think unbelievers who preach this will be stopped because it is heresy or evil or showing they do not know Jesus? They are unbelievers, so getting wealth now is literally all they care about, stuff the idiots who are giving to the church.
What about doom preachers who want a following? Tomorrow the world will end, so sell all you have and give it to me so I can build the ark of glory to God. All through history since Jesus guys have preached this and people have listened and given. If you want a money spinner, it gets folks to realise all their cash and give it away. So what if they are destitute afterwards, more fool them.
Death is the destruction of our physical bodies. Jesus says we should fear God who can destroy our souls in the lake of fire. The key word there is destroy.
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 10:28
If Jesus meant eternal life with torture, where is the destruction of the soul, that is eternity for the soul but torment. And in all the traditions of torment, who is doing the torturing? Demons.
Odd that. The enemies of God are given the job to exact punishment on sinners as their job. No where in scripture is this pictured, but it is in the dreams and hallucinations of sinners who claim demons torment them. One simple spiritual reality, is the Holy Spirit rules over demons and evil, and to be tormented by demons means the person being tormented in not in the Lord. But if you want to listen to demonic stories rather than scripture, your end is in your own hands, and will not be pleasant.
God bless you

I guess Jesus was a liar.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, backed up by 2000 years +/- of Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete words which occur in the KJV and to translate them correctly.

 

[FineLinen]

Blessings FineLinen! I have a challenge for you today, if you are willing to accept it. You have brought these words, "I've never been joined to you!" when the true words are, I never knew you. It appears that you quote a lot of other men(universalist), in trying to prove this falsehood, mixed with a little scripture. My challenge to you is for you to only bring your own words, or scripture for a period of time. This would be a lesson to grow by, as we all will give account for our own words, and not of another. Mr McDonald will not be standing next to you then. Do you know why Jesus said, I never knew you? For me, I only bring what my Father gives me to bring,so that people might not perish.

The entire working of God in sinners is to bring us by His love & grace into oneness within Himself. It is called at-one-ment. It is not a one time experience, but in the present progressive tense of being born anew. Seeing Him requires an awakening of mind & heart to enter where He dwells.

He sees us wrapped into Christ. Because of His great love He ordained us. Always His perfect plan is to adopt us through our union with Christ that His tremendous love that cascades over us would glorify His grace. ~TPT

 

[wendykvw]

I'm sure you know as well as I do, that many would call what Graham said to Schuller heresy. I find it interesting you think there's a good possibility that Judas repented and was saved, and agree with everything Graham said to Schuller, yet display so much contempt towards universalism and those who believe in it.

Sometimes those who fight the hardest are closer than it appears.

 

[wendykvw]

I thought he was teaching universalism at first. But then I learned the difference between universalism and inclusionism.

Inclusivity is very close to Universalism. Especially when you get into the other views of what happens to the unevangelized.

 

[wendykvw]

Such was his love for his people the Hebrews. Why is that so hard to believe? Don't you love someone so much that you would give yourself for them?

Yes, Moses was an intercessor but I do not follow your interpretation that Moses was asking to go to eternal hell.

 

[wendykvw]

I think that we can both provide plenty of verses
from the Bible that speak of the Father and the
Son and the Holy Spirit. I don't use the term
"Trinity" as it is a loaded word. The issue is
"one God in three equal persons", or some
statement to that effect. There is plenty of
scriptures to question that position and I
won't debate that with anyone. Why are you
trying to derail your own thread? Since you
opened the door, where are the scriptures
that support "restorative judgment"?
I find either eternal life or death. I do not
consider an eternal death sentence to be ETC
and it is for a minority who are clearly defined
as the cruel and violent, who have oppressed
a majority of the people of the world.
Can you take an honest look at the world today
and say that the actual evidence in place does
not support that position?

Exactly you proved my point. A term can be used that is explicitly taught in scriptures.

 

[wendykvw]

That is how I read his teaching...

But hey... always open to being proved wrong...

Looks like I hold a similar position to Billy Graham.

The Maori in New Zealand are a case in point.

In a short time, 60% were saved through the Anglican missionaries and it was discovered they had a worship of the 'Great God' "IO" who lined up in Character with the God of Israel.

The way I read it - God wanted to be in eternal fellowship with those who have reason to be eternally thankful, and have found that reason in His Grace in this life.

I read Romans 9 as Paul addressed the nation of Israel. He addresses the mindset that he once held.

 

[wendykvw]

This is what a universalist said:



This is what a universalist said:



I see nothing in Scripture that teaches man can prepare for the Kingdom of God.

Again, this is a works-based fiction.


God bless.

Congratulations, this has been the contention between Protestants and Catholics for a very long time.

 

[wendykvw]

I agree that a lot of hell fire and brimestone preaching dwelt on unless you bless the church you are doomed to eternal torture.

If one wants to be honest about redemption and following Jesus, statistically few ever do this.
On just this basis, the majority are in hell being tortured for all eternity for at most 70 years of lostness and sinning. There is a real sense of injustice in this proposition.

In Ezekiel though he says this

But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
Eze 18:24

Remembering of someone only happens if they are righteous, and death is the end of the unfaithful.

If all sinners are tortured for all eternity, they are remember and their evil is held eternally before them and all who see them. But this is not the principle of the future of those who do evil. Those who do evil are like chaff.

Not so the wicked! They are like chaff that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
Psalm 1:4-5

One aspect of sinners is the idea of revenge and disproportionate suffering. Sinners love to see those they hate suffer. God on the other hand just destroys them.

The church as an institution gets lots of money from those who can literally buy their way out of hell and suffering. So what is better, a temporary hell out of which relatives can be bought with prayers and donations to the church. Do you think unbelievers who preach this will be stopped because it is heresy or evil or showing they do not know Jesus? They are unbelievers, so getting wealth now is literally all they care about, stuff the idiots who are giving to the church.

What about doom preachers who want a following? Tomorrow the world will end, so sell all you have and give it to me so I can build the ark of glory to God. All through history since Jesus guys have preached this and people have listened and given. If you want a money spinner, it gets folks to realise all their cash and give it away. So what if they are destitute afterwards, more fool them.

Death is the destruction of our physical bodies. Jesus says we should fear God who can destroy our souls in the lake of fire. The key word there is destroy.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 10:28

If Jesus meant eternal life with torture, where is the destruction of the soul, that is eternity for the soul but torment. And in all the traditions of torment, who is doing the torturing? Demons.

Odd that. The enemies of God are given the job to exact punishment on sinners as their job. No where in scripture is this pictured, but it is in the dreams and hallucinations of sinners who claim demons torment them. One simple spiritual reality, is the Holy Spirit rules over demons and evil, and to be tormented by demons means the person being tormented in not in the Lord. But if you want to listen to demonic stories rather than scripture, your end is in your own hands, and will not be pleasant.

God bless you

What? Demonic stories. You mean that Christ defeated the devil? Sure I will be happy to proclaim Christ is Victorious all day and everyday.

 

[wendykvw]

Can you take an honest look at the world today
and say that the actual evidence in place does
not support that position?

The problem with the world today? Christianity is in a decline. Instead of being salt and light to the world, it became just like the world.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I read Romans 9 as Paul addressed the nation of Israel. He addresses the mindset that he once held.

Well you would need to view it with a lense of some sort I guess, it challenges your position otherwise.

 

[ozso]

You one of those?

I lean more towards annihilation, with a hope all will be redeemed. Ultimately I trust my Lord to do what's right, however exactly that pans out.

Never after death!

According to the Bible lots of stuff happens after death.