Re-Thinking Hell

[ozso]

Hades? The place or the pagan Greek "god"? Would the real God, Who told us not to even mention the names of pagan "gods" [Joshua 23:7] then go on to do so Himself? I doubt Jesus, here, was speaking Greek, or used the term "hades."

Who's Jesus? There's no one named Jesus in this.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Who's Jesus? There's no one named Jesus in this.

Oh, yes, He's the One telling the story...remember?

 

[wendykvw]

The cop-out is not addressing the points and Scripture, and proceeding with your own teaching as if your error had not been addressed.

But it is no surprise.




Satan isn't alone.



Universalism limits God as inconsistent. But thankfully the universalist shows that it is they who are inconsistent, because, as I have shown in the proof-texting you provided—what you are saying doesn't even align with what the verses you quote state.

You take passages that refer to those who belong to Christ and apply them to everyone. Not something any serious Bible Student is going to overlook, but unfortunately—there's a lot of collateral damage among those who are seeking after God.



This is a false charge, and ridiculous: it is the unrighteous God saves.

Remember, there are none righteous?

I have given my "complaints" in addressing your doctrine and what I view to be a false gospel, why won't you address those posts?

You make the Gospel of Jesus Christ obsolete with the false gospel everyone is going to be saved in the end.

So since you ignore what has already been addressed, how about explaining the parting words of the Lord Jesus Christ:


Revelation 22:19
King James Version

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


And by the way, I hope you don't take this as an attack on your person. I am sure you are sincere in your beliefs, and while I do disagree strongly with your doctrine, I do not question the reality of another person's salvation based on their doctrine (at least publicly). These posts are not given in hostility or without a sincere concern and desire to help.

So, what exactly does the Lord mean when He states "God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this book?"


God bless.

I was a baptist for 30 years. It might surprise you that the majority of those who hold to a restoration view of hell come from a traditional background. In other words, they believed as you do for many decades. They come from all backgrounds/ they are traditional scholars, Pastors, and theologians. I will share a shortlist. It is easy to ridicule those who view the scriptures differently than yourself, but foolish to make claims about their faith as being inferior to your own. If you actually had knowledge of any individual and how dedicated they were to their faith and serving God, you might re-think your uninformed position. My husband and I both worked in the ministry, Southern Baptist for 30 years. My husband is an Apologist and Author. I am an Author and Evangelist, who worked with Billy Graham Evangelism Crusades, and Evangelism Ministries. I encourage you to join the conference that is held each year that discusses respectfully the three views of hell. I believe space is still available for speakers. You can submit an application. It is at this conference you can share your position. Rethinking Hell Conference – Evangelical Christian Conference on Hell

The list I referred to of Traditional Scholars, Pastors, and Theologians who teach and believe in the Ultimate Victory of the Cross, and the Restorative Nature of Hell.

1. Eastern Orthodox Bishop Hilarion
2. Evangelical Scholar Robin Parry
3. Orthodox Scholar David Hart
4. Pentecostal Bishop Carlton Pearson
5. Presbyterian Pastor Jon Bonda
6. Non-Denominational Pastor Stephen Jones
7. Franciscan Preist Richard Rohr
8. Methodist Pastor Kaleen Fristad
9. Baptist Missionary, Pastor, George Hurd
10. Eastern Orthodox Theologian Brad Jersek
Many more.


Based on your replies here you imply that those who view scripture differently than you do are either of the devil, have an intellectual disability, or are reprobates. We could play bible ping pong all day and every day. Here is the problem with bible ping pong:

Scripture has very little to do with one’s commitment to the Lord or reverence for His word and everything to do with the theological presuppositions or model one holds to. If one accepts that God will punish people eternally in hell, passages are interpreted one way; if it is believed God will eventually annihilate the wicked, passages are interpreted another way; and if one holds that all will eventually be saved, there is yet a third possibility( restoration hell).

While some in this life may not be "in Christ" the eventual promise and will of God is to bring all people to Christ. You say God cannot do this.....I wholeheartedly disagree with your interpretation.


It is often asserted that scripture is very clear, but if it is so clear, we would not see so many differing opinions among scholars and denominational interpretations of scripture. Each has a different theological viewpoint on every major doctrine within the Christian Faith.

Here are a few samples:

1. To a Roman Catholic Saving Grace is communicated through the seven sacraments.

2. To the Lutheran Grace is through faith alone.

3. For an Anabaptist Sacraments are only symbols and do not provide saving grace.

4. Those of a Reformed view see Salvation as determined by God, and not by human will.

5. To an Armenian Salvation is determined by human free will

Reality:
Many denominations, many interpretations. All read the same book, the bible.

Problem:
Beginning in the early church there have always been varied and differing opinions. There has never been a consensus.

Fact: The universalist view does not teach wickedness is rewarded. Universalism teaches that God is unwilling any perish and is willing to wait for all to come to repentance and the knowledge of the truth. Universalism has a higher view of "sanctification". All must prepare for the Kingdom of God. Those who are not ready will enter the fire of Gehenna. This includes "believers". They do not lose salvation. See #64

God is patient, long-suffering and full of love, mercy, and grace. He has an unlimited supply. He is the great physician, who can heal the blind, cure the sick, and transform the most wayward of all sons, and daughters.

1. This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4
2. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Pt 3:9

It is easy to fall into the mindset that there is no hope for anyone because we tend to attribute human weakness to God. In Universalism wickedness will be cured in the fullness of time.

• “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.”~Isaiah 55:9

• “He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed, miracles that cannot be counted. ~Job 5:9

It is not possible for a soul to resist God forever, for one simple reason: God loves all He created. He created all humankind, and will not allow an evil serpent to steal, kill and destroy it... So, at this point, it isn't fallible people, who have the definitive answer to the finished work of Christ, it is the will of the Father.

• "And He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ." -Ephesians 1:10

 

[Der Alte]

Hades? The place or the pagan Greek "god"? Would the real God, Who told us not to even mention the names of pagan "gods" [Joshua 23:7] then go on to do so Himself? I doubt Jesus, here, was speaking Greek, or used the term "hades."

Why do you assume that Jesus was not speaking Greek? If Jesus was speaking Hebrew the word He would have used would have been sheol which the Jews wrote as "hades" in the 225 BC Septuagint/LXX and that is the word used in the NT. Only the gospel according to Matthew was believed to have been written originally in Hebrew.
And FYI Luke was a gentile not a Jew so he definitely would not have written in Hebrew. And if Jesus had said "sheol" Luke would not have understood. You have any more objections?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Why do you assume that Jesus was not speaking Greek? If Jesus was speaking Hebrew the word He would have used would have been sheol which the Jews wrote as "hades" in the 225 BC Septuagint/LXX and that is the word used in the NT. Only the gospel according to Matthew was believed to have been written originally in Hebrew.
And FYI Luke was a gentile not a Jew so he definitely would not have written in Hebrew. And if Jesus had said "sheol" Luke would not have understood. You have any more objections?

A side step as usual, avoiding my main point. If the true God is a jealous God as He states He is, then why would His Own Son intone the name of a false, pagan, Greek "god"? You mention Matthew and Luke, but my question is rooted in the OT.

 

[Der Alte]

A side step as usual, avoiding my main point. If the true God is a jealous God as He states He is, then why would His Own Son intone the name of a false, pagan, Greek "god"? You mention Matthew and Luke, but my question is rooted in the OT.

I answered your question. That you didn't like my answer does not negate it. You stated a supposition. Jesus is quoted as saying "hades." Your suppositions notwithstanding.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I answered your question. That you didn't like my answer does not negate it. You stated a supposition. Jesus is quoted as saying "hades." Your suppositions notwithstanding.

I reiterated my question, and again, you failed to answer.

 

[ozso]

Oh, yes, He's the One telling the story...remember?

I'm just playing around regarding translation since Jesus is Greek for Yeshua. And I'm not sure how to debate this with you, since I've posted the same observation before regarding words like "Hell" and "Hades" being names of places out of pagan mythology. Like if you're going to use those, why not call Heaven Valhalla? Yet despite that, many universalists still use "hell" for lack of a better word, for a place of correction the unsaved will have to experience. Is it your contention that no such place exists?

 

[Lazarus Short]

I'm just playing around regarding translation since Jesus is Greek for Yeshua. And I'm not sure how to debate this with you, since I've posted the same observation before regarding words like "Hell" and "Hades" being names of places out of pagan mythology. Like if you're going to use those, why not call Heaven Valhalla? Yet despite that, many universalists still use "hell" for lack of a better word, for a place of correction the unsaved will have to experience. Is it your contention that no such place exists?

Having found "Hel" and "Helheim" in Norse mythology, yes, I contend that no such place exists. Further, consider "Gehenna," a place outside Jerusalem that you can visit today. I can't speak for "many" universalists, but IMHO, "hell" is just too theo-illogically loaded a word to be of any use.

 

[ozso]

Overly large obvious copy/paste omitted.
Most of a person's post should be their own words. If you know of a long article you would like for members to view quote a short summary and post a link.

That is something YOU need to put into practice.

 

[ozso]

Having found "Hel" and "Helheim" in Norse mythology, yes, I contend that no such place exists. Further, consider "Gehenna," a place outside Jerusalem that you can visit today. I can't speak for "many" universalists, but IMHO, "hell" is just too theo-illogically loaded a word to be of any use.

So what word should be used?

 

[Der Alte]

That is something YOU need to put into practice.

But for... Copy/paste usually implies something copied from another but presented as if it were totally, exclusively one's own work, Everything I post is solely my own work. Anything which is copied from any source is clearly identified. These will usually be grammars, lexicons, ECF. I never copy and post anyone else's work as my own.<period> end of statement.

 

[Der Alte]

Having found "Hel" and "Helheim" in Norse mythology, yes, I contend that no such place exists. Further, consider "Gehenna," a place outside Jerusalem that you can visit today. I can't speak for "many" universalists, but IMHO, "hell" is just too theo-illogically loaded a word to be of any use.

Although I posted quotes from three Jewish sources; Jewish Encyclopedia, The Talmud, the Encyclopedia Judaica, numerous times, which document that among Jews, before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of fiery, eternal punishment which they called both sheol and Ge Hinnom. The two terms were written as "hades" and "Gehenna" in both the 225 BC Septuagint/LXX and the New Testament.
All of the references to "Gehenna" in the NT do NOT refer to the valley of Gehenna outside Jerusalem. There is no historical record from any source which states that Gehenna was ever used as a trash dump.
There was such a trash dump outside Jerusalem but it was the next valley over the Kidron valley. Archaeological evidence available on request.
From the fact that my numerous posts citing the above sources have been totally ignored by the UR crowd I must assume they are not interested in the truth.

 

[ozso]

But for... Copy/paste usually implies something copied from another but presented as if it were totally, exclusively one's own work, Everything I post is solely my own work. Anything which is copied from any source is clearly identified. These will usually be grammars, lexicons, ECF. I never copy and post anyone else's work as my own.<period> end of statement.

No copy and paste is just that. Like you making copies of gigantic posts and reposting them over and over.

What you're talking about is called plagiarism.

Which you apparently falsely accused Wendy of, and you should apologize to her for it.

 

[St. Helens]

ADMIN HAT ON

ADMIN HAT OFF​

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[wendykvw]

Dr.Gregory Boyd Pentecostal Scholar/Pastor. Part 1

 

[P1LGR1M]

A side step as usual, avoiding my main point. If the true God is a jealous God as He states He is, then why would His Own Son intone the name of a false, pagan, Greek "god"? You mention Matthew and Luke, but my question is rooted in the OT.

Jesus is not speaking of the god Hades, but of the place. It is the New Testament equivalent for the place of the dead called Sheol in the Hebrew Scriptures.

The Greek Language was used to translate the Hebrew Scriptures and was a language used enough, even after Rome had taken over, that we see...


Luke 23:38
And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, This Is The King Of The Jews.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I was a baptist for 30 years.

And...?

Many atheists say "I was a Christian for __________ years."

Seeing that you have rejected what has been held by Baptists it calls into question whether you were a Baptist at all. Probably better to say "I attended Baptist Churches for 30 years."

It might surprise you that the majority of those who hold to a restoration view of hell come from a traditional background.

More correctly, "A majority of those who hold to a restoration view of hell departed from a traditional background."

In other words, they believed as you do for many decades.

And I quote:

If you actually had knowledge of any individual and how dedicated they were to their faith and serving God, you might re-think your uninformed position.

You might want to get better acquainted with what it is I actually believe before drawing conclusions.

They come from all backgrounds/ they are traditional scholars, Pastors, and theologians. I will share a shortlist.

A Mormon can say the same thing. A Jehovah's Witness can say the same thing.

But what is lacking to this long post that seems to have yourself as the central focus—is Scripture supporting the Universalism view, or an address of the Scripture and points already given in this thread by myself.

I'm really not interested in the pedigrees of my antagonists, only the basis for their belief. Perhaps in the future you can try to get in a little discussion of the subject from more than just your own view.

It is easy to ridicule those who view the scriptures differently than yourself,

Can you show me where I ridiculed someone?

but foolish to make claims about their faith as being inferior to your own.

Can you show me where I said someone's faith was inferior to my own?

If you actually had knowledge of any individual and how dedicated they were to their faith and serving God, you might re-think your uninformed position.

Oh, so my position is uninformed, is it? lol

You can have the right to say that once you address my posts.

I can already see from what you say in this that you are lacking in some very basic Bible Principles. If you would care to discuss Eternal Damnation versus Universalism, please, let me know.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

My husband and I both worked in the ministry, Southern Baptist for 30 years.

And...?

You both rejected what they taught? Or just you?

My husband is an Apologist and Author.

And...?

I am willing to debate the issue with either of you.

Does being an apologist and an author make one authoritative?

There are no apologists or authors out there that teach error? Just want to be sure I understand why it is you think your life is relevant to what Scripture teaches.

I am an Author and Evangelist, who worked with Billy Graham Evangelism Crusades, and Evangelism Ministries.

And...?

What would Billy Graham say about your view? While I am aware that he felt there were people that would get into Heaven who had never professed Christ, I was not aware that Billy Graham held to a Universal view.

I did not see his name on your list.

And if he didn't this would make your time with Billy Graham seem to have been wasted.

I encourage you to join the conference that is held each year that discusses respectfully the three views of hell.

I'd love to, and if I get the time I may do that one day. But for the time being, I am just debating this issue on a debate and discussion forum.

So if you want discuss and/or debate the issue, please address the posts, points, and Scripture that are relevant to the here and now.

I believe space is still available for speakers. You can submit an application. It is at this conference you can share your position. Rethinking Hell Conference – Evangelical Christian Conference on Hell

I will take a look at it.

The list I referred to of Traditional Scholars, Pastors, and Theologians who teach and believe in the Ultimate Victory of the Cross, and the Restorative Nature of Hell.

1. Eastern Orthodox Bishop Hilarion
2. Evangelical Scholar Robin Parry
3. Orthodox Scholar David Hart
4. Pentecostal Bishop Carlton Pearson
5. Presbyterian Pastor Jon Bonda
6. Non-Denominational Pastor Stephen Jones
7. Franciscan Preist Richard Rohr
8. Methodist Pastor Kaleen Fristad
9. Baptist Missionary, Pastor, George Hurd
10. Eastern Orthodox Theologian Brad Jersek
Many more.

Just because someone says "I am a Baptist" doesn't make that true. You prove this yourself with your own testimony.

Secondly, what makes you think I, or my own doctrine—must conform to what these denominations teach?

Third, if I posted the tens of thousands of Pastors, Scholars, and Theologians that reject Universalism—would that mean anything to you?

It is only what Scripture teaches that matters. Your view that because there are differing views this means it's okay for the Body of Christ to have differing views is another teaching of yours I reject fully.

Scripture is not a pick-your-own-view collection of revelation. It was given for the express purpose that men might know God's will.

Based on your replies here you imply that those who view scripture differently than you do are either of the devil, have an intellectual disability, or are reprobates.

Please, quote the posts that have me saying others are of the devil, have an intellectual disability, or are reprobates.


Continued...