Rapture?

[adam332]

What does this speak of?

Matthew 24:39-41 niv
"and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

Luke 17:34 niv
I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left."

Maybe you can enlighten us all?

Grace and curiousity, GeneZ

It is self explanatory. Just as in the days of Noah, God's people were removed from harm and those left were KILLED.

Just as the days of Sodom, God's people were removed and those left were KILLED.

Isa. 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall DESTROY the sinners thereof OUT OF IT.

Rev. 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the DEAD, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest DESTROY THEM which destroy the earth.

Lam. 2:22 Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD'S anger NONE ESCAPED NOR REMAINED: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.

Jer. 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, [there was] NO MAN, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

1Thes. 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and THEY SHALL NOT ESCAPE.

Zep. 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the FIRE of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy RIDDANCE OF ALL THEM THAT DWELL in the land.

Nah. 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is BURNED at his presence, yea, the world, and ALL THAT DWELL THEREIN.

2Thes. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall CONSUME with the spirit of his mouth, and shall DESTROY with the brightness of his coming:

Rev. 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should SMITE the nations

Mal. 4:1 For, behold, THE DAY COMETH, THAT SHALL BURN AS AN OVEN; and all the proud, yea, and ALL THAT DO WICKEDLY, SHALL BE STUBBLE: AND THE DAY THAT COMETH SHALL BURN THEM UP, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Rev. 19:21 And the remnant were SLAIN with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Mat. 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and SEVER THE WICKED from among the just,

Isa. 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and THEY THAT DWELL THEREIN SHALL DIE in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished

Mat. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and BIND THEM INTO BUNDLES TO BURN THEM: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This [is] the first resurrection.

 

[Ethan_Fetch]

Adam, please, it says the flood took them all away.

Who did the flood take away?

It is an incredible stretch to suggest that the flood "took away" those in the ark.

The passage is clearly talking about the wicked who were destroyed in the flood.

 

[Tamara224]

As for the idea itself, it is so complacent, so western. Who else but a coddled European or American could believe that he will be snatched away before wrath and tribulation can harm him?

Try telling that to the brethren in China or the Sudan.

Our brethren in China and the Sudan suffer much that we coddled westerners do no have to endure. Most of us will probably die from natural causes and hardly suffer physical persecution at all. Is that fair? Millions of Christians have lived their lives and died without too much persecution. Was it wrong for them to escape the tribulations that other Christians endure? And would it be sooo terrible to encourage our brethren by saying that their suffering will be over soon? Whether we 'fall asleep' or are 'those who are alive and remain' at the time of the resurrection...either way, our suffering is over. Even Paul spoke of longing to escape the confines of his physical body and to be with the Lord, of his longing for the human suffering to be over.

The pre-trib rapture doesn't allow Christians to escape all tribulations...only The Tribulation, when the wrath of God is poured out on the world. Just as Noah and his family escaped in the ark, we will escape as well. Not because it's easier that way, but because as the Bride of Christ, God's wrath is not meant for us. He won't pour out his wrath on his own children. That doesn't guarantee that we will be spared trials and tribulations until that time.

Remember, though, that those millions of Christians who have already 'fallen asleep' have already escaped the coming wrath during the Tribulation. So, why do they get out of it, but those who just happen to be alive during the 7 years have to suffer through God's wrath with the rest of the unbelieving and disobedient world? Why did millions of other Christians get to live and die in peaceful times, but that one generation of Christians is going to have to suffer God's wrath?

 

[Ethan_Fetch]

And would it be sooo terrible to encourage our brethren by saying that their suffering will be over soon? Whether we 'fall asleep' or are 'those who are alive and remain' at the time of the resurrection...either way, our suffering is over. Even Paul spoke of longing to escape the confines of his physical body and to be with the Lord, of his longing for the human suffering to be over.

No, it wouldn't be wrong at all, but we don't need fantasies of Jesus coming halfway down as a kind of tease and then going off again only to really come back later in order to do it.

There is consolation enough in the Gospel and the promises of eternal life it carries with it.

If such consolations were enough for Paul (a man who knew tribulation) they should be enough for any of us.

The pre-trib rapture doesn't allow Christians to escape all tribulations...only The Tribulation, when the wrath of God is poured out on the world. Just as Noah and his family escaped in the ark, we will escape as well. Not because it's easier that way, but because as the Bride of Christ, God's wrath is not meant for us. He won't pour out his wrath on his own children. That doesn't guarantee that we will be spared trials and tribulations until that time.

The example of Noah is a bad one, because yet again, the ones "taken away" were not the family of Noah in the Ark but the wicked who are taken away not by the ark, but by the flood.

I see no difference in kind between The Tribulation® and the pain and persecution the church has been suffering for 2000 years. All I see is an increase in its intensity as we near the time of Christ's return.

God has not spared us 2000 years of trouble, I do not believe He will spare us it's final culmination, not is there any real biblical reason for believing He will.

Remember, though, that those millions of Christians who have already 'fallen asleep' have already escaped the coming wrath during the Tribulation. So, why do they get out of it, but those who just happen to be alive during the 7 years have to suffer through God's wrath with the rest of the unbelieving and disobedient world? Why did millions of other Christians get to live and die in peaceful times, but that one generation of Christians is going to have to suffer God's wrath?

They didn't get to die in peaceful times, many of them were violently killed for the faith.

Again, you see an essential disconnect between the final culminative, catastrophic big-T Tribulation and what the church has been suffering for 20 centuries, I do not.

Even in the west the true church is persecuted. The west is far too civilized to persecute it openly and to the shedding of blood just now, but I do believe that what is now merely ridicule and marginalization will surely become real violence against us.

So we are no different than those brethren in Africa or China, though we like to think that we are, we have just been put to sleep.

The Tribulation is now and has always been, it's just going to get suddenly worse.

Tribulation is only for the church. When Christ returns He will destroy the wicked. This is something different than tribulation.

The tribulation you mean to speak of is not the wrath of God against wickedness, that is coming with the Judgement.

The tribulation you mean to speak of is the wrath of Satan and his minions against the bride of Christ.

 

[Advent Christian]

Hello All
After reading this post I find quite a range of views concerning the rapture of Christians. Before I continue I would ask, what are the different understandings of what the rapture is?
As some know I was raised Presbyterian which most assuredly teach the concept of Church rapture. Once I began to truly study God’s Word and listen to it and not what I had always been taught or believed I found concerning this subject that God’s Word indeed dose not support the common understanding of rapture.
I humbly ask all my brothers and sisters to read concerning subject of the rapture of the church not to prove what you believe is correct or that another view is wrong but instead read all relating scripture in whole to follow the description God has given us. All too often we rely too heavily on teachings we have always held and this impacts how we understand certain applications of some of the scriptures because these are the verses we have been pointed to concerning these teachings.
I know there are many here far more spiritually mature than I along with being far more knowledgeable of what is written in God’s Word then I; I fear however that far too often this subject, as with many others, get lost in the discussions and we traverse from learning/discussion over to argumentative debate where it becomes more important to prove our point then find the truth. I pray we all spend our time in search of God’s truth because the very fact that there is such a variance in this subject shows Christians as a whole have not come to understand this subject. If there is one verse of scripture which taken in context disagrees with a belief, the belief is wrong. God’s Word contains no contradictions, contradictions come from man’s limited understanding.
As always my love to all and May God Bless.

 

[GenemZ]

The idea that the church will be raptured away with Jesus for seven years while Anti-Christ rules the earth is a novelty unknown before John Nelson Darby made it up a hundred and fifty years ago.

If the time in history a truth was delayed and made manifest were a Biblical precept? Well? Where does that place you?

John Calvin did not show up on the scene until the 1500's. That means he could not be right. For why didn't anyone else see TULIP before he did?

I do not think you will be using that argument again.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Ah, there's the trick, then. The "insight" required to make the Bible say what you think it ought to.

Works like a charm! Yet, there is real insight. As with all insights, not everyone accepts it when its revealed.

Sounds like you should not. What I hear you saying is that the Bible doesn't say anything about a "rapture" apart from the one and only return of our Lord, but that those with sufficient "insight" will read it into the text somewhere. In this case "insight" appears to be synonymous with "imagination".

Matthew 16:17 niv
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."


Enjoy that lack of insight world, sir, in fear that others could claim its only your imagination. Much of it out there, is just that. But, not all of it. You seem not able to discern which is what. So be it.

See you in the rapture.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Yes.

The Gathering
Jhn 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should GATHER together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Matt. 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHERED TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but GATHER THE WHEAT INTO MY BARN.

Adam, I simply cited passages that reveal a sudden removal of people from the face of the earth, while other remain behind. Those passages reveal "a" rapture, but not the Rapture of the Church.

For? Before the Lord returns to reign on the earth all unbelievers must be first removed. They too, will have a rapture. All the tares will be removed and burned at that time!

When Jesus spoke to the Jews, he spoke in terms of Jewish understanding of the Bible. The Church was a hidden mystery to them, but the Lord coming to the earth to set up his Kingdom was well known. Matthew was simply quoting the Lord's dissertation on how the Lord will purge the world of unbelievers before he sets up his earthly throne.

Yes! The Bible speaks of two raptures! One for the Church. One for all the unbelievers before the Lord returns. Just read the following....

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but GATHER THE WHEAT INTO MY BARN.
​

When separating wheat from chaff, the chaff was carried away by the wind (lifted up) and the wheat remained on the ground (barn).

And? The tares are burned! Not the Church. Jesus spoke of a second rapture. One to remove all unbelievers from the earth just before he returns to set up his kingdom.

I simply used that example to reveal a modus operandi of God. An undeniable one. There will actually be two raptures. One to Eternal life. The other, to damnation. Each one lends insight to what will take place for the other.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Jipsah]

If the time in history a truth was delayed and made manifest were a Biblical precept? Well? Where does that place you?

What if that alleged truth is as bogus as a $17 bill? Where does that place you?

John Calvin did not show up on the scene until the 1500's. That means he could not be right. For why didn't anyone else see TULIP before he did?

The "TULIP" didn't come from Calvin, but was coined after he'd gone to his reward. But the ideas he expressed came directly from the Bible. Read Ephesians without your doctrinal presuppositions on and you'll see it as plain as day. The same can in no way be said for the "rapture" notion.

I do not think you will be using that argument again.

Good, then I will. The rapture doctrine was made up a scant century and a half ago, and it has no basis in Scripture. Was that close?

 

[adam332]

Adam, please, it says the flood took them all away.

Who did the flood take away?

It is an incredible stretch to suggest that the flood "took away" those in the ark.

The passage is clearly talking about the wicked who were destroyed in the flood.

I never mentioned any such stretch. I agree completely that the flood took them away and destroyed them.

Luk 17:29 But the SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and DESTROYED [THEM] ALL.
Luk 17:30 Even thus SHALL IT BE in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Now, the passage in Matthew confuses people because he mentions that the wicked were "took" away. Then in the verses that follow he uses the word "taken". Now, in the English "took" and "taken" are forms of the same word. But, in their Greek original they are two completely different words; took=airo & taken=paralambano.

The word(took/strongs #142) he used to describe what happened to the wicked has some insightful meanings, including....

"to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence"
and
"cause to cease" ​

Whether it was intended to tell the reader that they died as we see may be the case according to Strongs, or to simply imply their death by indicating they were washed away in the flood, I honestly don't know. But what I do know is that the wicked from the flood were killed, and the wicked in sodom were killed. That is the point that is obviously being made and that was my only contention.​

Also in Luke, immediately after mentioning that one will be "left", the disciples inquire "Where, Lord?". Christ says....​

Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

There are only a total of four verses that specifically mention "eagles" or "fowl" gathered or being commanded to "gather".

Here are the other three...

Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the CARCASE is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered FOWL, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; GATHER yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even] a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.


Rev 19:17-18 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the FOWLS that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and GATHER yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Again, my point is that those left are corpses.

 

[Jipsah]

Works like a charm!

Sure. All you need is a pre-existing doctrinal mold to force the Scripture into and you can make it say whatever you like.

Yet, there is real insight.

That's OK, I prefer to go by what the Bible says rather than "insights" or "imagination".

others could claim its only your imagination. Much of it out there, is just that. But, not all of it. You seem not able to discern which is what.

<Laugh> Yeah, the folks who are keen on telling us how gorgeous the emperor's new duds are are always filled with insight and perception that's we less imaginative folks can't grasp. Just looks to us like the king's parading around in his skivvies.

 

[adam332]

[/b]
Adam, I simply cited passages that reveal a sudden removal of people from the face of the earth, while other remain behind. Those passages reveal "a" rapture, but not the Rapture of the Church.

For? Before the Lord returns to reign on the earth all unbelievers must be first removed. They too, will have a rapture. All the tares will be removed and burned at that time!

When Jesus spoke to the Jews, he spoke in terms of Jewish understanding of the Bible. The Church was a hidden mystery to them, but the Lord coming to the earth to set up his Kingdom was well known. Matthew was simply quoting the Lord's dissertation on how the Lord will purge the world of unbelievers before he sets up his earthly throne.

Yes! The Bible speaks of two raptures! One for the Church. One for all the unbelievers before the Lord returns. Just read the following....

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but GATHER THE WHEAT INTO MY BARN.




​

When separating wheat from chaff, the chaff was carried away by the wind (lifted up) and the wheat remained on the ground (barn).

And? The tares are burned! Not the Church. Jesus spoke of a second rapture. One to remove all unbelievers from the earth just before he returns to set up his kingdom.

I simply used that example to reveal a modus operandi of God. An undeniable one. There will actually be two raptures. One to Eternal life. The other, to damnation. Each one lends insight to what will take place for the other.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

When the Lord returns he will not be reigning on earth, the earth will be a barren wasteland while the righteous reign with him for a thousand years in the city he has gone to prepare for us.

The wheat and tares parable confirms this. The tares are burned "FIRST", then the wheat is taken to his barn. His barn is obviously the holy city he has gone to prepare.

At the coming of Christ, the righteous both alive and dead, will be raised into the air and glorified. The same fiery glory that purifies the righteous like silver, shall burn the wicked like stubble. The Bible asks who shall be able to stand in that day?.

Jesus nor anyone else spoke of any second rapture, the church is the body, right? And the body is made up of all believers joined together both Jews and Gentiles, right?

You can try to divide the world up into all the groups you desire but only two groups are Biblical. The righteous and the wicked, the wheat and the tares, the sheep and the goats, the saved and the damned, etc..., period.

The re-gathering of Israel to Heaven

Isa. 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and GATHER TOGETHER the dispersed of Judah FROM THE FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.

Mat. 24:31 And he shall send HIS ANGELS with a great sound of a trumpet, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send HIS ANGELS, and SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Isa. 41:9 THOU WHOM I HAVE TAKEN FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away

Luke 13:28-29 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And THEY SHALL COME FROM THE EAST, AND FROM THE WEST, AND FROM THE NORTH, AND FROM THE SOUTH, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

1Thes. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Isa. 45:22 Look unto me, and BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH: for I am God, and there is none else.

Mat. 8:11 And I say unto you, That MANY SHALL COME FROM THE EAST AND THE WEST, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Zec. 8:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I WILL SAVE MY PEOPLE FROM THE EAST COUNTRY, AND FROM THE WEST COUNTRY;

Psa. 107:3 And GATHERED THEM out of the lands, FROM THE EAST, AND FROM THE WEST, FROM THE NORTH, AND FROM THE SOUTH.

Isa. 43:6 I will say TO THE NORTH, Give up; AND TO THE SOUTH, Keep not back: BRING MY SONS from far, AND MY DAUGHTERS FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH;

John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE THE CHILDREN OF GOD THAT WERE SCATTERED ABROAD.

Jer. 31:8 Behold, I WILL bring them from the north country, and GATHER THEM FROM THE COASTS OF THE EARTH, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
________
The terminology is undeniable, the OT and NT accounts are one and the same event. This accompanied by the glaring NT fact of who will present at this gathering , &#8220;Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the prophets&#8221;!! Matthew records that the saints will be sitting with these prominent Israelites. Sitting where? &#8220;in the kingdom of heaven&#8221;, (Mat.8:11)! Luke narrative says they will be sitting &#8220;in the kingdom of God&#8221;, (Luke 13:28). According to all accounts this will be immediately after the second coming that this gathering occurs. So where do we find the Saints sitting immediately after the second coming?
_________
Rev. 20:4 And I saw THRONES, and THEY SAT UPON THEM, and JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN UNTO THEM: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and THEY LIVED and REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS.

1Cor. 6:2 Do ye not know that THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE the world? and if the world SHALL BE JUDGED BY YOU, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1Cor. 6:3 Know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but THEY SHALL BE PRIESTS of God and of Christ, and SHALL REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS.

Mat. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall SIT UPON twelve THRONES, JUDGING the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table IN MY KINGDOM, and SIT ON THRONES JUDGING the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall SIT DOWN IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Mat. 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall SIT DOWN with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

Psa. 122:3-5 Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together: Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the LORD, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the LORD. For there are set THRONES OF JUDGMENT, the thrones of the house of David.

Dan. 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN TO THE SAINTS of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

1Cor.4:5 Therefore JUDGE NOTHING BEFORE THE TIME, UNTIL THE LORD COME, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
_________
Again the terminology cannot be argued with, all accounts agree that the saints(Israel) are gathered unto Him at the second coming and taken to the kingdom of heaven, where they reign with Christ for a thousand years, sitting on thrones as judges.
The kingdom of heaven is New Jerusalem, the heavenly Zion. It is God&#8217;s city which bears His name that He has prepared for us since the foundation of the world.
_________

John 14:2-3 In my Father's HOUSE are many MANSIONS: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU. And if I go and PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU, I will come again, and RECEIVE YOU unto myself; that WHERE I AM, [THERE] YE MAY BE ALSO.

Heb. 11:16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath PREPARED FOR THEM A CITY.

Psa. 102:16 WHEN THE LORD SHALL BUILD UP ZION, HE SHALL APPEAR IN HIS GLORY.

Heb. 12:22 But ye are come unto MOUNT SION, and UNTO THE CITY of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for IN MOUNT ZION AND IN JERUSALEM SHALL BE DELIVERENCE, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Mat. 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, COME, ye blessed of my Father, inherit THE KINGDOM PREPARED for you from the foundation of the world:

2Tim. 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his HEAVENLY KINGDOM: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Zec. 8:7-8 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I WILL SAVE MY PEOPLE FROM THE EAST COUNTRY, AND FROM THE WEST COUNTRY, AND I WILL BRING THEM, and THEY SHALL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Rom. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, THERE SHALL COME OUT OF SION THE DELIVERER, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Jer. 31:6 For THERE SHALL BE A DAY, THAT THE WATCHMEN upon the mount Ephraim SHALL CRY, ARISE YE, AND LET US GO UP TO ZION UNTO THE LORD OUR GOD.
__________
What fulfillment are you looking for? Fleshly and earthly it appears. When the scriptures makes it clear it&#8217;s a spiritual and heavenly fulfillment.
__________

Heb. 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God....
...13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

 

[GenemZ]

When the Lord returns he will not be reigning on earth, the earth will be a barren wasteland while the righteous reign with him for a thousand years in the city he has gone to prepare for us.

Sir? Okkayyyyyy....


The earth will still be with us.

Nations will still exist.

Zechariah 8:23 niv
"This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.' "
​

The city you speak of will be above the new earth, which will replace this earth AFTER the Millennium is over. Yet, this earth will be drastically transformed for the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Isaiah 11:6-7 (New International Version)
"The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox."
​

Why have a city above a burned out planet? Makes no sense. Perfection mixed with destruction? Not a good concept.

he wheat and tares parable confirms this. The tares are burned "FIRST", then the wheat is taken to his barn. His barn is obviously the holy city he has gone to prepare.

Obvious, schmovious.....

Barns are of the earth. On land.

After all? Barns are for FARMS. There will be no barns in Heaven.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Tamara224]

No, it wouldn't be wrong at all, but we don't need fantasies of Jesus coming halfway down as a kind of tease and then going off again only to really come back later in order to do it.

There is consolation enough in the Gospel and the promises of eternal life it carries with it.

If such consolations were enough for Paul (a man who knew tribulation) they should be enough for any of us.

My point was that the consolation of eternal life is the same as the consolation of the Rapture. In both cases, we console and encourage one another with the promise that things will be better once we are no longer in our current physical state. Whether the change happens after physical death, or whether the change happens due to the 'catching up' and transformation described in 1 Thesselonians.... either way, we are encouraged with the thought that the suffering is not eternal. That was my point.

The example of Noah is a bad one, because yet again, the ones "taken away" were not the family of Noah in the Ark but the wicked who are taken away not by the ark, but by the flood.

The example of Noah is a perfect one. You're playing semantics games. The people who died in the Flood may or may not have been 'taken away' ... the point is not the manner in which it occurrs, the point is the purpose. Noah and his family were rescued from the Flood and preserved from God's judgment on the rest of humanity. Christians are like Noah in type because we are the only ones faithful to God in our world. Just as Noah was preserved from judgment, so will the Church be.

I see no difference in kind between The Tribulation® and the pain and persecution the church has been suffering for 2000 years. All I see is an increase in its intensity as we near the time of Christ's return.

I suggest you re-read Revelation then. If you truly can't distinguish a difference then you are seriously missing some things. It is clear throughout the Revelation that this time of Tribulation is going to be such as the world has never known before. Or, can you point to a time when the stars fell; every mountain was moved from its place; the sun became black and moon as blood; etc, etc, etc? Unless you are one of those who does not take Revelation literally, then it is unreasonable to say that the events described therein are the same, only a little worse, than what we suffer now.

God has not spared us 2000 years of trouble, I do not believe He will spare us it's final culmination, not is there any real biblical reason for believing He will.

He promised to spare us: "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).

They didn't get to die in peaceful times, many of them were violently killed for the faith.

Again, you see an essential disconnect between the final culminative, catastrophic big-T Tribulation and what the church has been suffering for 20 centuries, I do not.

Even in the west the true church is persecuted. The west is far too civilized to persecute it openly and to the shedding of blood just now, but I do believe that what is now merely ridicule and marginalization will surely become real violence against us.

So we are no different than those brethren in Africa or China, though we like to think that we are, we have just been put to sleep.

You seem to me to be contradicting yourself here. First, you said that we in the west are 'coddled' unlike our brethren in Africa and China...now you are saying that we're no different...Which is it?

I agree that many have been persecuted and martyred. But, I maintain that many have not been martyred. Although persecution comes in many forms...I specifically said 'physical persecution.'

The Tribulation is now and has always been, it's just going to get suddenly worse.

Tribulation is only for the church. When Christ returns He will destroy the wicked. This is something different than tribulation.

The tribulation you mean to speak of is not the wrath of God against wickedness, that is coming with the Judgement.

The tribulation you mean to speak of is the wrath of Satan and his minions against the bride of Christ.

[Please do me the courtesy of not telling me what I meant to say. I wrote what I meant and I meant what I wrote. If you disagree with that, fine, disagree...but please don't be so arrogant as to tell me what I meant.]

As to the Tribulation being the wrath of God...again, please re-read Revelation, here's an example:

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Throughout the Revelation, it is clear that it is God pouring out the plagues/curses/wrath...It is the Lamb of God (Jesus) who opens the seals. It is all being orchestrated from Heaven. Although it is clear that Satan and his minions will have a role...the wrath is from God, carried out by God on a disobedient world.

 

[Melethiel]

Unless you are one of those who does not take Revelation literally,

It's apocalyptic literature. It's not meant to be taken literally.

 

[Tamara224]

It's apocalyptic literature. It's not meant to be taken literally.
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On what do you base that assumption? Did John tell us to take his 'apocalyptic literature' with a grain of salt? To not take it literally?

No, he said in Revelation 1:1-3

"1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

This is the preface to the 'literature' ... this is the purpose with which the author was writing. If it were 'non-literally' meant, don't you think we would find at least a hint here?

The prophecies concerning Christ's incarnation, life, death and resurrection may have been considered 'non-literal' by his contemporaries. After all, who could take it seriously when it said that he would be rejected by men, that he would be beaten, whipped and killed? Who could think 'born of a virgin' would 'literally' mean that his mother would be a literal virgin? I mean, how is that possible?! How is it possible, furthermore, that the Messiah would be born in Bethleham, come out of Egypt but be from Nazareth? That can't be literal, because it's contradictory, right? Yet, we see that Jesus fulfilled all of those and the prophecies were meant to be taken literally.

The previous prophecies were fulfilled literally down to the very minutest of details. That is evidence enough for me that the remaining prophecies will also be fulfilled literally, to the minutest of details.

 

[Ethan_Fetch]

Tam,

Forgive me, I wasn't trying to tell you what you believed. I was attempting to use a literary device to draw a distinction between your view and my own.

The passage from Rev. 6 is not speaking of tribulation. It is speaking of the fear caused by Christ's return, the "kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free" know what is coming.

I believe I said that I believe there to be a wrath coming for the ungodly, it is the wrath of a just and holy judge outraged by their wickedness and murder of the saints.

 

[Wandering_Raven]

wow
lotsa discussion.
This is a toughie. I believe in a litteral rapture - and I do not know when it will be, and I know that I must be ready for it NOW - because for all we know, it may come and take me away as I type this post.

But I have a hunch those who love Christ will know He is coming - as Jesus spoke of it when he talked about being aware of the weather and the seasons. So, from what Jesus said in Matthew 24, my advice is this:
"Do not worry about when. It is not important". Instead, work the fields as though the storms are at your heels. Attempt to save as many as you possibly can, for no one but God knows when the hour will strike, and every life is precious.

The genreal consensus among many Christians is that we are coming into darker times. This is noteworthy, and makes our message more urgent.

 

[mark75]

Absolutely, I believe in the rapture. It's an implication of Scripture, just like the doctrine of the Trinity. We may discuss and debate the timing of the rapture, but I wouldn't argue the fact of the rapture.

Mark

 

[Ethan_Fetch]

Mark,

Good words.

Non-dispensationalists are precipitous when we deny the rapture entirely.

The Bible clearly teaches a 'catching up' of the saints.