Rapture?

[Tamara224]

Tonks, you made a mistake with your Vulgate-English...the verses don't line up... Look, for example at the word Archangel and where it appears:

First Epistle of Saint Paul to the Thessalonians
Chapter 4
Vs 14-17

4:14. For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept.
[SIZE=-1]Si enim credimus quod Iesus mortuus est et resurrexit ita et Deus eos qui dormierunt per Iesum adducet cum eo[/SIZE]

4:15. For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first.
[SIZE=-1]Hoc enim vobis dicimus in verbo Domini quia nos qui vivimus qui residui sumus in adventum Domini non praeveniemus eos qui dormierunt[/SIZE]

4:16. Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord.
[SIZE=-1]Quoniam ipse Dominus in iussu et in voce archangeli et in tuba Dei descendet de caelo et mortui qui in Christo sunt resurgent primi[/SIZE]

4:17. Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words.
[SIZE=-1]Deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus[/SIZE]

The Latin you have under verse 16, is actually verse 15...
I took the liberty of color coding key words so you can see what I'm talking about. The word 'rapiemur' is where we get the word 'rapture' it literally means 'to be caught up, or snatched up.' The word 'harpazo' is found in the original Greek and has the same meaning.

Quibbling over whether there will be a 'catching up' or not becaues the word 'rapture' doesn't appear in Scripture is like denying the Trinity because that word isn't found, either. The concept is there, it's just not called that, specifically.

I really think that the concept of the rapture, i.e. that we will be 'caught up' and meet our Lord in the air, is a Biblical fact. The only real controversy over this issue is the timing of that event.

 

[Tonks]

Actually, it means to seize, snatch, or carry away if you'd like to get specific about it. Catholics do not deny the rapture, as such. They deny the connotation that the word "Rapture" has become due to the dispensationalists.

 

[Tonks]

Yes, I realize that I made a mistake...thanks for fixing it. No coffee yet.

 

[Tamara224]

Yes, I realize that I made a mistake...thanks for fixing it. No coffee yet.

I'm still on my first cup too...

 

[seashale76]

Oh you are soooo mistaken.

While I believe and my hope is in a pre-Tribulation rapture and my lamp is full of oil, that doesn't mean that I'm not out evangelizing. What life of sloth? You don't know me or my activities for the Kingdom of God.

I word everything I type VERY carefully. I never accused YOU of anything. My statement is just as innocuous as yours about the empty oil lamps (because I'm sure that it wasn't directed to me).

 

[tulc]

Wow! I'm gone away for a little while and look at all the responses!
Thanks for staying civil everyone!
tulc(who is working his way through a serious cup of coffee!)

 

[GenemZ]

As I said, I found it nowhere in the bible.

Philippians 1:9 niv
And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight.
​

Insight comes from what we can see (knowledge), causing us to see what is not directly shown. Having insight is a part of God's plan.

And? By your saying its nowhere to be found in the Bible? Does that mean you're "Sola Scriptura?"

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Jipsah]

The rapture is a Scriptural fact.

If we're talking about the coming of our Lord, then we should say that and leave off the cutesy terminology. If we're talking about something else, then it's a humbug.

 

[holdon]

If we're talking about the coming of our Lord, then we should say that and leave off the cutesy terminology. If we're talking about something else, then it's a humbug.

What terminology??? The rapture is a Scriptural fact. I don't see how that is humbug either....

 

[Jipsah]

What terminology??? The rapture is a Scriptural fact. I don't see how that is humbug either....

The idea of our Lord returning multiple times is a humbug, unsupported by Scripture. And again, if what we're talking about is the one and only return of our Savior, why not say that instead of using some cant term? We aren't waiting for a "rapture", whatever that means, we're waiting for our Lord to return!

 

[holdon]

We aren't waiting for a "rapture", whatever that means, we're waiting for our Lord to return!

Well, Paul must have been wrong then when he said: "encourage eachother with these words", right after he explained the rapture.

 

[GenemZ]

Actually, it means to seize, snatch, or carry away if you'd like to get specific about it. Catholics do not deny the rapture, as such. They deny the connotation that the word "Rapture" has become due to the dispensationalists.

What is being denied about it now? And, what was it taken to have meant, all along?

Thanks... Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

The idea of our Lord returning multiple times is a humbug, unsupported by Scripture. And again, if what we're talking about is the one and only return of our Savior, why not say that instead of using some cant term? We aren't waiting for a "rapture", whatever that means, we're waiting for our Lord to return!

The Rapture is not the Lord's return to earth. He never touches ground in the Rapture, nor is he seen by anyone on the earth while the Rapture takes place.

Its not a return. Its meeting us half way, to remove his Bride and to lift her up over the threshold. Like a husband lifts his wife and carries her into their new home.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 niv
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

That is not his returning. When he returns he will set foot on the earth to destroy his enemies and set up his Kingdom.

Before his return he must get his Bride ready to reign with him. That is why the Rapture comes first. To give the needed time for the Church (his Bride) to be made ready to reign on earth with Him, when he returns!

Revelation 2:26 niv
To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[OnTheWay]

I think the rapture doctrine shows a certain level of similarity between the Evangelics and Islamics. Within orthodox Christianty (little o) the beliefs regarding the end have been uniform since the time of Christ. However, Evangelicals are forever find new doctrines. Just as Muslims are forever finding new teachings in the Koran.
As to the OP, no I don't believe there is an validity to something made up by a woman in Scotland C.150 years ago.

 

[holdon]

I think the rapture doctrine shows a certain level of similarity between the Evangelics and Islamics. Within orthodox Christianty (little o) the beliefs regarding the end have been uniform since the time of Christ. However, Evangelicals are forever find new doctrines. Just as Muslims are forever finding new teachings in the Koran.
As to the OP, no I don't believe there is an validity to something made up by a woman in Scotland C.150 years ago.

Yet it was there all the time since Paul wrote to the Thessalonians: "together will be raptured to meet the Lord in the air" see 1 Thess 4:17.

That was almost 2000 years ago....

 

[nephilimiyr]

So...anyone believe in the Rapture?
tulc(just curious)

I believe in it, the question for me is, when? Actually I don't really care to know when it will be just as long as it will happen!

 

[OnTheWay]

Yet it was there all the time since Paul wrote to the Thessalonians: "together will be raptured to meet the Lord in the air" see 1 Thess 4:17.

That was almost 2000 years ago....

This is where we get into the silliness of protestant literalist interpretation. Once again, the doctrine of the rapture was made up by a woman in Scotland. The Church has always understood that verse, in context with the rest of Scripture, in a correct litteral (not litteralist) meaning.

 

[nephilimiyr]

This is where we get into the silliness of protestant literalist interpretation. Once again, the doctrine of the rapture was made up by a woman in Scotland. The Church has always understood that verse, in context with the rest of Scripture, in a correct litteral (not litteralist) meaning. The idea of creating something like that based on a piece of one verse, removed completely from context, is pretty much the path to hell.

LOL, yeah holdon, words only mean what they say they mean when the Orthodox says so!

 

[a_ntv]

This is where we get into the silliness of protestant literalist interpretation. Once again, the doctrine of the rapture was made up by a woman in Scotland. The Church has always understood that verse, in context with the rest of Scripture, in a correct litteral (not litteralist) meaning. The idea of creating something like that based on a piece of one verse, removed completely from context, is pretty much the path to hell.

I agree. If we believe literally to verse 17 of 1Thess4, we have to belive tha Paul, the writer, was taken into the heaven still alive. This didnt happened.

 

[Tonks]

LOL, yeah holdon, words only mean what they say they mean when the Orthodox says so!

This isn't some mere quibble over a point or two - this is a wholesale gutting of orthodox Christian thought and is primarily advanced by those that have little theological grounding - particularly during the beginnings of the movement.

Beyond the mainline and / or historic reform churches that are pretty solidly consistent in doctrine (though i do disagree with them, of course) this pre-trib, literal millennium and rapture business smacks of "the only way to distinguish one denomination from another is to make up something entirely new."