Rapture?

[Edial]

And what is the verse which proves that the rapture is later on in the Tribulation????

REV 7:14 I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

To be "out of it" one must be "in it".

Thanks,
Ed

 

[sawdust]

This appears to be a more solemn period than the New heavens and new earth. It is a time we are judging WITH CHRIST and sitting on thrones as priests. There will suredly be questions about salvation. Do we not wonder who we will see in heaven? How much more will we wonder, when we're there? What questions will we want answered?

Well I only have one question and that is... "can I have a Labrador puppy?"

What if you were Stephen and the last thing you remembered before your martyrdom was Paul approving it?! Then you are raised up with the saints and you see Paul, are there any questions you think you may have?

If I was Stephen and I saw Paul in heaven? Nope, no questions. I would be too busy giving thanks for the grace of God that raised Paul just as He raised me.

What about your children, spouse, parents, siblings, friends, popes, etc... All the righteous that ever live will be glorified and imparted with a greater understanding but will not have had access to the judgement books to see "why" they are there.... and others aren't.

Son, if you don't know why you are going to heaven now, you will never understand why anyone else ends up where they do when they do.

Notice in the passages that follow the mention of the mellinnium, suddenly there is mentions of the book of life being opened and the wicked are judged from it.
Rev. 20:12, 15. Immediately prior to this the saints themselves sat in judgement with Christ for an entire mellinnia.

Like I said before, who's around to be judged? The unbelievers are dead and the unelect angels are chained up. You think we will be judging each other? To what point. There is now no condemnation, how much more so then?

It appears that the second death will not occur until all the righteous are in agreement/satisfied with the judgement. Keep in mind that it says we will judge with christ for a thousand yrs.

Gee, I really hope the Lord stuck His fingers in His ears when you said that.

To think He has to wait upon our judgement before He can act?????

I think you may have seen me post to genez all the passages I can find that are contextually referring to the mellinnium. There is quite a lack of confirmable data, but from what I can find that is my best guess. I got the where, what, who, and when....but the scripture I see is just not clear on the "why"?

Best guess???

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3

Those who have eternal life do not need to guess.

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Heb.11:1

If we have to guess? What that really tells us is that we need to sit quietly at our Master's feet and learn more of Him so that we grow in faith.

It says we are there for only a thousand yrs., 2Peter also implies it will be like a "day" to us. John envisions the city setting down upon the earth after the mellinnium. Then he sees a new heaven and new earth.

Isaiah indicates that in the new heavens and earth that all flesh shall come to the city to worship. Is this the new earth... an eden recreated with new jerusalem as it's capital? It sure seems that way from the scripture we have.

It's funny. It was in reading the "new earth" in Isaiah and the "new earth" in Revelation that led me to become a dispensationalist which, is even funnier because I didn't even know at the time there was a theology called Dispensationalism.

You have a nice day.

peace

 

[Edial]

That's why I wrote "pretty much". Since amilleniasm is the majority view in the Lutheran church, and official in the LCMS.

The Lutheran interpretation of the Revelation does not jive with her interpretation of the OT prophecies.

They interpret the OT prophets' words of describing the prophecies concerning Christ as fulfilled to the last minute detail (30 pieces of silver), yet they refuse to interpret the Revelation (NT prophecy) literally.

And when I say "literally", I mean a literal picture as seen by the prophet John.

The interpretation of all the prophecies should me consistent throughout the Bible.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[holdon]

REV 7:14 I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

To be "out of it" one must be "in it".

Thanks,
Ed

Yes, but in my opinion that is a different group and clearly distinguished from the elders, who are already in heaven: pre-tribulation. That there are also believers coming to belief in the tribulation, is clear. But nowhere does it say that those are raptured.

 

[Tonks]

And when I say "literally", I mean a literal picture as seen by the prophet John.

The interpretation of all the prophecies should me consistent throughout the Bible.

Thanks,
Ed

I'm certainly not one to answer for the Lutherans but I'd hardly call the LCMS "fatalistically futurist" - which is what is required in order to deal with the non-amillennial, post-trib interpretation.

 

[Edial]

Yes, but in my opinion that is a different group and clearly distinguished from the elders, who are already in heaven: pre-tribulation. That there are also believers coming to belief in the tribulation, is clear. But nowhere does it say that those are raptured.

REV 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb."
REV 7:11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
REV 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
REV 7:14 I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The ones in the white robes are the church.

They came out of the great tribulation. They were in it.

And the elders are the believers that died way before the tribulation and wound up in heaven as many others.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[sawdust]

What has that got to do with anything? The first resurrection does not take place at the Advent.

May I clarify something please?

You said the above in relation to this.

Rev. 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Let me first give you the picture in my head before I ask my question so you know where I'm coming from.

Christ has just returned to earth. He has separated the wheat and tares (? not 100% sure this has happened yet). Thrones are set up. (This is for us, the church age saints?) We are sitting upon the thrones in our resurrection bodies (hence your comment above?)

Now, those who have died during the tribulation are brought back to life. This is my question. Are they resurrected or resusitated? The reason I ask is because of the statement "they lived and reigned with Christ for a 1000 years". It has a "temporal" sound to it as if they are still waiting for a completed act to take place. And your comment about "the first resurrection not taking place at the Advent" made me ponder this question again as to whether these people from the Tribulation are being resurrected.

Hope that makes sense.

peace

 

[sawdust]

REV 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb."
REV 7:11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
REV 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
REV 7:14 I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The ones in the white robes are the church.

They came out of the great tribulation. They were in it.

And the elders are the believers that died way before the tribulation and wound up in heaven as many others.

Thanks,
Ed

What makes you think the "elders" are men Ed? I ask because it seems a strange thing to have a picture of one part of Christ's bride standing before John and the rest standing between two groups of angels.

peace

 

[holdon]

REV 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb."
REV 7:11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
REV 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
REV 7:14 I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The ones in the white robes are the church.

There is no evidence of that. The elders have also white garments: see Rev 4:4.

They came out of the great tribulation. They were in it.

I don't dispute that at all. But there is no hint whatsoever that those that come out of the great tribulation are raptured in any shape of form.

And the elders are the believers that died way before the tribulation and wound up in heaven as many others.

And you don't have any evidence of that either. By the way, 1 Thess 4 says that the dead in Christ and those alive are raptured together....

 

[adam332]

Genez, again ....

You don't have to disprove anything about my passages. You think the millennial reign will be on earth. I don't. That's it, real simple.

You think that Rev 20 gives some details that will occur during the millenial reign, so do I.

However that passage does not tell us where the reign will be. So, tell me what passages you have found that show those same images and events that give you the impression it will be on earth?

 

[adam332]

Well I only have one question and that is... "can I have a Labrador puppy?"

If I was Stephen and I saw Paul in heaven? Nope, no questions. I would be too busy giving thanks for the grace of God that raised Paul just as He raised me.

Son, if you don't know why you are going to heaven now, you will never understand why anyone else ends up where they do when they do.

Like I said before, who's around to be judged? The unbelievers are dead and the unelect angels are chained up. You think we will be judging each other? To what point. There is now no condemnation, how much more so then?

Let's see;
Christ comes and all the wicked living are slain by the brightness of his coming. The first death perhaps??
Nah! That's too obvious.

The saints are caught up in the first resurrection, and judge with Christ for a millennium.

The thousand years end, and New Jerusalem sits upon the earth. All the wicked are raised in the second resurrection.

Fire comes down from God and destroys them in the second death.

Recreation of the heavens and earth.

You keep saying what are they judging and that there is no point of it....

so, you show me.... what those reigning with Christ are judging? It says it right there in rev. 20, they definitely are judging something.

Then it says; AFTER the thousand years the wicked are JUDGED out of the book of life and die in the SECOND DEATH. Coicidence? I think not.

Gee, I really hope the Lord stuck His fingers in His ears when you said that.

To think He has to wait upon our judgement before He can act?????

Best guess???

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3

Son, if you don't know why you are going to heaven now, you will never understand why anyone else ends up where they do when they do.

Those who have eternal life do not need to guess.

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Heb.11:1

If we have to guess? What that really tells us is that we need to sit quietly at our Master's feet and learn more of Him so that we grow in faith.

peace

Why did you turn this into a "poor boy don't know if he's saved" sidetrack?

Why are you implying that one who studies the areas of judgement in the Bible and seeks answers, doesnt' know if they are saved? So by faith you have become an automatic scholar of the subject of judgement, and/or have no need to study what the Bible says about it?

My BEST GUESS had absolutely nothing to do with your little rant on my salvation. Please stick to the subject instead of bringing into question my suredness of faith.
Thank you.

 

[sawdust]

Why did you turn this into a "poor boy don't know if he's saved" sidetrack?

I didn't. You did when you rearranged my post to suit yourself and placed my responses out of context.

I was talking about understanding what was, is and will be through knowing the scriptures. I was talking about growing in faith which results in greater understanding.

I never once suggested you wouldn't be there (in heaven) but I find it extremely difficult to understand why anyone should have need to ask the sort of questions you put forward.

I am trying to understand what you are saying so I can see in my mind what you see but frankly, it's wierd. It doesn't make any sense. And the worse thing is you don't even seem to be aware of it.

You keep saying we will be judging through the millienium but there is no-one left on earth to judge and no-one but the righteous in heaven. The righteous do not need to be judged.

I am trying to see what you are saying but I cannot make head nor tail of it.

peace

 

[dcyates]

This is the Rapture
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your assessment of this text. I don't think this supports the concept of the rapture as it is commonly understood by those who adhere to the 'Left Behind' take on eschatology. Too often this is seen as describing the Christian's journey to heaven with Christ. However, the Greek word for 'meet' (apantesis), in v. 17 above, bore very distinct connotations in the ancient Greco-Roman world. It designated an event where either the emperor or other dignitary was making an official visit to a given town or city, the citizens of that city, or a delegation of citizens, would expressly go out from the city to meet the emperor or dignitary and then escort them back into their city. What is therefore being discussed here is not a 'rapture' where Christians are whisked off to heaven, but rather where Paul intended to comfort his audience by assuring them that they and their now-dead loved ones have indeed placed their lives in the correct hands, that Jesus is Lord (not Caesar).

 

[Flynmonkie]

Yes! If I am wrong, I will be in Imblessed basement too! (whoo hooo a Bible study slumber party!) But No matter how much I love ya Imblessed, I prefer the whole take me away Lord idea!

 

[Edial]

There is no evidence of that. The elders have also white garments: see Rev 4:4. ....

If you are telling me that the ones waiving the palm branches, wearing white robes that were washed in the blood of the Lamb are not the church, then we have redefined the church.

I don't dispute that at all. But there is no hint whatsoever that those that come out of the great tribulation are raptured in any shape of form.....

I am not saying that they are raptured out of the great tribulation. I am saying that the church is NOT raptured prior to the great trobulation and exists during it.
They simply died during the tribulation and went to heaven.

And you don't have any evidence of that either. By the way, 1 Thess 4 says that the dead in Christ and those alive are raptured together....

That's not what I am saying. You misunderstood.
What I am saying is that there are believers that die naturally, outside of the resurrection of the dead and rapture. And these wind up in heaven, as the elders have.

What I am presenting is that the Church will be in the great tribulation and then, many of it's members will come out of it.

But, coming out of the tribulation does not mean being raptured. All it means that the Church in the Rev.7 is existing on the Earth during the tribulation and many of its members died and wound up in heaven.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

What makes you think the "elders" are men Ed? I ask because it seems a strange thing to have a picture of one part of Christ's bride standing before John and the rest standing between two groups of angels.

peace

Hah! You surprised me with that question.

OK. Let's address that.

There are various views of who these elders are and none of these views are provable by the Scriptures.
Some say 12 from the NT and 12 from the OT. Some say, well they say many things.

The strongest evidence that these are men is in this NIV text.

REV 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
REV 7:14 I answered, "Sir, you know."
...
However, the NIV reads into the translation and translated Master as Sir.

So, this cannot prove that these were men (males).

However, we know that in heaven there will be no males nor females. That is clear.

So who are the elders?
My personal views is that the elders are not an identity but a position within a church.
And that position is not lifetime, but an elected office.

These 24 oversee the church and they occupy a POSITION of an elder.
Then they might step down and have others occupy that same position for a while.

And, since I cannot prove that the elders are males, and since there will be no males nor females in the heaven.
The position of an elder certainly seems available to females (former females that is ).

Thanks,
Ed

 

[GenemZ]

You keep saying we will be judging through the millienium but there is no-one left on earth to judge and no-one but the righteous in heaven. The righteous do not need to be judged.

Key point. Who will we be judging? And, why in Heaven for 1000 years? Perfection being judged? Taking that long? And? How can we have time while experiencing Eternity? There is no time in Eternity.

I do not know what else can be debated until that issue is explained to us. As it stands, its succeeds at being contradictory. Yet, fails at making real sense when one seeks its purpose for being that way.

Good point!
Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Edial]

Genez, again ....

You don't have to disprove anything about my passages. You think the millennial reign will be on earth. I don't. That's it, real simple.

You think that Rev 20 gives some details that will occur during the millenial reign, so do I.

However that passage does not tell us where the reign will be. So, tell me what passages you have found that show those same images and events that give you the impression it will be on earth?

How do we know where the reign will not be?

What I mean is this. If there is a new Earth and the kingdom of God will include it, why wont the reigning be done from that Earth?
Or from Heaven? Or both?

Now, do we believe that Christ will physically descend on the Earth and do the reigning?
Why not?
He's done that before.

Maybe I am not grasping the point.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[GenemZ]

So, this cannot prove that these were men (males).

However, we know that in heaven there will be no males nor females. That is clear.

That is not clear. What is clear is that the angels in Heaven are not given in marriage, and we will become like they are. Jesus was not given in marriage. Daniel was not given in marriage. Paul too, and the list goes on.

And, since I cannot prove that the elders are males, and since there will be no males nor females in the heaven.
The position of an elder certainly seems available to females (former females that is ).

In Genesis 1:27, God created [bara] the souls "male and female."

In Genesis 2? ' Bara' is not mentioned as taking place.

Bara is God's unique ability to create 'out from nothing.' In Genesis 2? God did not 'bara' the body. God 'yatsar' (formed and molded) the body of Adam form what had been already created - 'bara.'

The body of the woman was 'banah', built up from the material removed from Adam's side. Like Jesus took a few loaves to feed the many.

The souls were created male and female.

" So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

​

The body for those souls were provided from the material world. Sexual reproduction is for the physical world, only.

Yet? The expression of masculinity and femininity are two sides of God's image. God will not change. To say there will be only one expression in Heaven is to cut off a part of the expression of God. And, it would be to alter the expression of the soul. Bodies will be different in Heaven. No sexual reproduction. Yet, we had expression when eight years old of masculinity and femininity without sexuality, and we were very happy. It does not mean there will not be male and female in Heaven.

And, another point to be noted. Angels always have masculine names. And, the Greek word for angels always appears in the masculine gender. Never in the feminine, nor neuter.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words


Angel

angelos "a messenger" (from angello, "to deliver a message"), sent whether by God or by man or by Satan, "is also used of a guardian or representative in Rev_1:20, cp. Matt_18:10; Acts_12:15 (where it is better understood as = 'ghost'), superior to man, Heb_2:7; Psalm_8:5, belonging to Heaven, Matt_24:36; Mark_12:25, and to God, Luke_12:8, and engaged in His service, Psalm_103:20. "Angels" are spirits, Heb_1:14, i.e., they have not material bodies as men have; they are either human in form, or can assume the human form when necessary, cp. Luke_24:4, with Luke_24:23, Acts_10:3 with Acts_10:30.
"They are called 'holy' in Mark_8:38, and 'elect,' 1_Tim_5:21, in contrast with some of their original number, Matt_25:4 , who 'sinned,' 2_Pet_2:4 'left their proper habitation,' Jude_1:6, oiketerion, a word which occurs again, in the NT, only in 2_Cor_5:2 Angels are always spoken of in the masculine gender, the feminine form of the word does not occur."[ From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 229.]



​

Note!

Angels are always spoken of in the masculine gender, the feminine form of the word does not occur."[ From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, p. 229.]



​

God created man in his image. The immaterial soul is what was created in his image. The body dies. That was not created in God's image. The soul either lives, or exists, forever. That was created in the image of God. It is invisible to the eyes of man. The souls were both masculine and feminine. Souls do not have sex. There will be masculinity and femininity expressed in Heaven as far as I can tell.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[holdon]

If you are telling me that the ones waiving the palm branches, wearing white robes that were washed in the blood of the Lamb are not the church, then we have redefined the church.

How so? You're not saying that only the church waives palm branches, no?

I am not saying that they are raptured out of the great tribulation. I am saying that the church is NOT raptured prior to the great trobulation and exists during it.
They simply died during the tribulation and went to heaven.



That's not what I am saying. You misunderstood.
What I am saying is that there are believers that die naturally, outside of the resurrection of the dead and rapture. And these wind up in heaven, as the elders have.

How? And what is your Scriptural basis for that?

What I am presenting is that the Church will be in the great tribulation and then, many of it's members will come out of it.

But, coming out of the tribulation does not mean being raptured. All it means that the Church in the Rev.7 is existing on the Earth during the tribulation and many of its members died and wound up in heaven.

Thanks,
Ed

In Rev 7 I see 3 groups: a multitude from the nations; a large group from Israel; the elders. All are clearly distinguished from eachother. The Church is known to make no difference between Jew and Gentile. So, these first 2 groups that are identified as being from one and the other and separate from eachother, cannot be the church. So, logically only the elders can represent the Church....