Rapture will happen..does it matter when?

[John Davidson]

John....The WELS Lutheran church ( and most Lutherans) do not believe in a "Rapture" if a Lutheran pastor from one of the three camps (WELS, ELCA, or Missouri) teaches Rapture then that would not be good for them. Plus I did state that I am now a leader in the Church of God (TN). However the Rapture and End Times is new to me. I can see now that this was a terrible idea to post this question.

That is incorrect. I attend a Missouri Synod Church and just two weeks ago my Pastor taught on the rapture in our bible class. Lutherans do believe in a rapture after all it is in the bible. The difference is that they believe this "catching away" occurs on the last day when Christ returns.

 

[TalwinStark]

That is incorrect. I attend a Missouri Synod Church and just two weeks ago my Pastor taught on the rapture in our bible class. Lutherans do believe in a rapture after all it is in the bible. The difference is that they believe this "catching away" occurs on the last day when Christ returns.

I stand Corrected. I was a WELS and I really dont know as much as what the Missouri teaches.

 

[iamlamad]

If I listen to what people tell me and not listen to the thing I read in the bible, I too would believe in a post-trib rapture. However, any reason why you don't post scriptures to prove your point? If every indication points to them as the same event, you shouldn't have a problem finding evidence in the bible.

Revelation 6:12 is a blood moon. In Matthew 24:29, the moon is not red

In Revelation 6 at the 6th Seal, the tribulation hasn't begun yet and does not begin till after the 144,000 are sealed --- which is also an event of the 6th Seal. The event of Matthew 24:29 is "immediately after the tribulation."

Revelation 6:12 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

Matthew 24:29 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ​

So let's use a little common sense here with your argument. By declaring both events as the same, are you telling us God will seal the 144,000 for their protection "immediately after the tribulation?"

Was this what you meant by the "seriousness of the rapture?"



I got more pictures but even better, I got more evidences from the bible. You're welcome to post scriptures too.

Ezekiel 32:5-8 Good News Translation (GNT)
5 I will cover mountains and valleys with your rotting corpse. 6 I will pour out your blood until it spreads over the mountains and fills the streams. 7 When I destroy you, I will cover the sky and blot out the stars. The sun will hide behind the clouds, and the moon will give no light. 8 I will put out all the lights of heaven and plunge your world into darkness. I, the Sovereign Lord, have spoken.​

Isaiah 13:9-11 Good News Translation (GNT)
9 The day of the Lord is coming—that cruel day of his fierce anger and fury. The earth will be made a wilderness, and every sinner will be destroyed. 10 Every star and every constellation will stop shining, the sun will be dark when it rises, and the moon will give no light. 11 The Lord says, “I will bring disaster on the earth and punish all wicked people for their sins. I will humble everyone who is proud and punish everyone who is arrogant and cruel.​

Joel 2:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Blow the trumpet in Zion,
And sound an alarm in My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble;
For the day of the Lord is coming,
For it is at hand:
2 A day of darkness and gloominess,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,
Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.
A people come, great and strong,
The like of whom has never been;
Nor will there ever be any such after them,
Even for many successive generations.
3 A fire devours before them,
And behind them a flame burns;
The land is like the Garden of Eden before them,
And behind them a desolate wilderness;
Surely nothing shall escape them.​

You still think all this sounds like the blood moon of Revelation 6:12?

___________________________________________________________

If you have't figure out what the 6th seal is by now, just watch the video.

Revelation 6:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.​

Joel 2:30-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.​

/QUOTE]

Psalm 3704 is dead on here: a red moon is visible else how would anyone know it is red? A darkened moon with the sun darkened would be invisible. One cannot see the moon unless sunlight is reflected to earth. What Jesus is telling us is that after the tribulation it will be TOTAL DARKNESS. This is a DIFFERENT sign that at the 6th seal.

In fact, Joel 2 shows us the sign of the 6th seal as the sign of the start of the Day of the Lord, while Joel 3 shows us the sign of darkness after Jesus returns to earth.

The 70th week of Daniel, or "the trib" as some call it will not start until the 7th seal, so the sign of the DAY at the 6th seal will certainly come before the 70th week begins. I believe the rapture of the church will be a moment before the 6th seal earthquake, and the earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. The earthquake will also be Paul's "sudden destruction" that will come a moment after the dead in Christ rise.

 

[John Davidson]

I stand Corrected. I was a WELS and I really dont know as much as what the Missouri teaches.

My brother attends a WELS church, I will ask him.

I'm sure that they do teach a "catching away" on the last day when Christ returns as well, after all it is in scripture.

I will also ask this question in the Lutheran forum.

 

[John Davidson]

I stand Corrected. I was a WELS and I really dont know as much as what the Missouri teaches.

It's possible that you don't think they believe in a catching away because they don't believe in a rapture in the same sense that premillennial dispensationalists do.

 

[TalwinStark]

My brother attends a WELS church, I will ask him.

I'm sure that they do teach a "catching away" on the last day when Christ returns as well, after all it is in scripture.

I will also ask this question in the Lutheran forum.

Its always been presented as just Judgement day to me within that church. They also tended to stay away from Revelation.

 

[John Davidson]

Its always been presented as just Judgement day to me within that church. They also tended to stay away from Revelation.

I'm sure that if you asked a WELS Pastor about 1 Thessalonians 4:17 you would be surprised at the answer. I'm sure WELS believe in some sort of rapture that occurs when Christ returns.

They just don't believe in a secret rapture that occurs prior to a 7 year tribulation.

 

[DingDing]

Have you not read where Paul says that when the believers are raptured that Christ will bring the dead in Christ with Him? Those gathered when the rapture occurs will not be just those living on earth at that time.

I've read every book Paul wrote in the bible but I have yet to read anything you've written about the seriousness of the rapture. You sure have a lot to say about the rapture but yet to reveal any consistency with what the bible said.

Maybe posting a few scriptures might help?

So you got the fact that I answered your question about Matthew 24:31?

 

[DingDing]

...
In Revelation 6 at the 6th Seal, the tribulation hasn't begun yet and does not begin till after the 144,000 are sealed --- which is also an event of the 6th Seal. The event of Matthew 24:29 is "immediately after the tribulation."

Revelation 6:12 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

Matthew 24:29 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ​

So let's use a little common sense here with your argument. By declaring both events as the same, are you telling us God will seal the 144,000 for their protection "immediately after the tribulation?"

Was this what you meant by the "seriousness of the rapture?"
...

Yes! Now you are catching on.

Your mistake above (which is the common pre-trib mistake) is that you say the tribulation (by that I think you mean the great tribulation?) begins at the breaking of seal 7. But that is not the case. At the breaking of the 7th seal, the Day of the LORD begins. The Day of the LORD is God's day of gathering (rapture) and then subsequent judgement of the unbelieving world. The Great Tribulation, on the other hand, is the time of satan's persecution of Israel and the church. Jesus says that this is the event mentioned by Daniel, and that event begins at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week (see Daniel). And as Paul says in 2nd Thes. 2, the Day of the LORD does not begin until after antichrist (son of perdition) has been revealed - which again happened at the mid-point. So then, the "rapture", which is what we appear to see happening in Rev. 7 when the great crowd appears in heaven, occurs after the Great Tribulation.

So the sealing of the 144,000 is not to protect them from the Great Tribulation at the hands of satan, but it is to protect them from God's Day of the LORD judgement which follows the Great Tribulation.

The biggest mistake that is commonly made is to assume that the Great Tribulation is the entirety of the 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week. Think of Daniel's 70th week like this: 1st half is beginning birth pains; the first portion of the 2nd half is satan's period of intense persecution called the Great Tribulation; the 2nd portion of the 2nd half is a time called the Day of the LORD, when God rescues his saints from satan's persecution and brings His judgments upon the world. (We do not know when, during the 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week, that the Day of the LORD occurs. But once antichrist appears and begins his time of great tribulation, we know that the LORD's return is very soon.)

 

[Straightshot]

"In Revelation 6 at the 6th Seal, the tribulation hasn't begun yet and does not begin till after the 144,000 are sealed --- which is also an event of the 6th Seal. The event of Matthew 24:29 is "immediately after the tribulation."


This is correct above

The 6th seal is a portent of the coming judgments particularly with regard for Satan and his fallen angels being to the earth for participation, upheaval in nature, and the reaction of the earth dwellers to the Lord's wrath .... these things will be prevalent during the entire 70th week decreed for Israel [the same period for the tribulation plus another 30 days for the battle of Armageddon]

The actual tribulation events begin in chapter 8 .... but just before, the 144000 of Israel must be sealed for their protection from the wiles of the judgment period on the earth as they carry out their mission [Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-7]

At the same time the view switches to heaven and the 24 elders and the multitude of pre-tribulation immortals of the Lord's true ecclesia are seen [Revelation 7:9-17]

Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 25:31-46 will occur just after the days of the tribulation

These two events will be the gathering of the mortal survivors of the tribulation, first of Israel and then of the Gentiles .... there are no resurrections for either and those found believing will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom up on the earth .... as mortals

There will be a resurrection for the Lord's two prophets and those who become believers during the tribulation and are martyred for their faith just at the end of the tribulation period [Revelation 6:9-11; 11:7-12]

On a side note, the Lord will call His true pre-tribulation ecclesia of both the dead in Christ and the living just before the tribulation begins [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; Revelation 3:10; 18:4]

..... since no man has gone to heaven except the One who has come down from heaven, the dead in Christ and the living will be called together at the same moment [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58]

it is the Creator of this universe that makes a man immortal and the dead in Christ will not be left in the grave at the Lord's call .... this is why the assurance is give for them

A man's spirit is returned to the Lord at the man's death and kept for His call to make them immortal .... this action is still pending

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

We're told we won't know the day or time when the church will be caught up with Christ. All things happen in God's time so in my view being God said the rapture will happen, it doesn't matter to me when. I trust the Father to know when its time because he also told me that all things happen by his will.

 

[DingDing]

We're told we won't know the day or time when the church will be caught up with Christ. All things happen in God's time so in my view being God said the rapture will happen, it doesn't matter to me when. I trust the Father to know when its time because he also told me that all things happen by his will.

We are told some general things - like antichrist will appear and things will get really bad before the rapture happens.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

We are told some general things - like antichrist will appear and things will get really bad before the rapture happens.

Sure. A time of trials . But those in Christ , bearing the armor of God, have nothing to fear do they?

 

[John Davidson]

I think the Lutheran point of view is being misrepresented here. Lutherans do indeed believe in a "catching away" of the saints. We merely disagree concerning the timing of this event. We believe that the rapture occurs on the last day when Christ returns. We don't believe in two second comings like the premillennialists do or a secret rapture that occurs prior to a period of tribulation. We believe that Christ returns on the last day and then raises the dead, after that the "catching away" or rapture occurs.

 

[ScottA]

This thread is to discuss what is important. does it truly matter when the rapture happens? Or does it matter more what we do until then seeing as how the bible states that we will never know the time, day, month, or year?

THIS IS ONLY FOR DEBATE NOT CONVERTING.

If it gets to wild and people start hating on others beliefs then I will ask that he thread be taken down.

The object is to have a good healthy discussion with the KINGDOM and not single denominations.

I like to style myself as the Pentecostal Lutheran, I was raised Lutheran but now attend and am a leader at a Church of God (TN) church

It only matters to us as individuals...as Paul clarified the actual timing: "But each one in his own order..." 1 Corinthians 15:23

 

[DingDing]

Sure. A time of trials . But those in Christ , bearing the armor of God, have nothing to fear do they?

The potential of falling away is very real, and according to the bible, many will take the easy way out. Most in the western church are not prepared for what is coming.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

The potential of falling away is very real, and according to the bible, many will take the easy way out. Most in the western church are not prepared for what is coming.

I think that we see people falling away from the faith already and well prior to the rapture. And those that would commit suicide during the time of trials, if that's what you are referring to when you say many will take the easy way out, if they are Christian are still in Gods mercy. As are I believe all who take their own life. It is he who would judge that act of God on their part when it is time.
God be with anyone in that state of mind right now. And Gods mercy surround those who have already journeyed there.

 

[DingDing]

I think that we see people falling away from the faith already and well prior to the rapture. And those that would commit suicide during the time of trials, if that's what you are referring to when you say many will take the easy way out, if they are Christian are still in Gods mercy. As are I believe all who take their own life. It is he who would judge that act of God on their part when it is time.
God be with anyone in that state of mind right now. And Gods mercy surround those who have already journeyed there.

Actually, I was alluding to taking the mark of the beast (or some similar compromise). The church will be here when antichrist arrives on the scene, and many will have tough choices to make - choices between life or death.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

I personally think the mark of the beast is already accomplished in the issuance of a serial number for all citizens in America; our social security number.

 

[DingDing]

I personally think the mark of the beast is already accomplished in the issuance of a serial number for all citizens in America; our social security number.

Well, I would disagree. Social security numbers are assigned at birth. The 'mark of the beast', whatever that may be, is something one chooses to take to avoid persecution.