Rapture will happen..does it matter when?

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Inkfingers]

You need to look into how John introduces us to various subjects as they appear to him.

Rev. 1:16
"...in his right hand seven stars..."
no definite article was used
John sees this set of stars for the first time.
Rev. 2:1
"Unto the...of the church...the seven stars..."
John is referring to the same set of already introduced to us
stars.

Rev. 7:1
"...saw four angels..."
Has not seen this group till now.
Rev. 7:2
"And I saw....the four angels..."

Rev. 8:2 uses the definite article "the seven angels"
which stood before God/not then stand before God

Ezekiel 9 is also about a time of setting a mark/sealing people
for protection in the days of Babylon.
After the sealing task was done, here is what took place.

Ezekiel 9:11
"And,...the man...reported...I have done as thou hast
commanded me."

So, if sealing is done in Rev. 7, then doesn't a report need to
be given at the end by the ones that sealed the people?
yes
John heard this report being given by the seven angels that
stood before God and would soon be given seven trumpets.
Later in chapter 7, people would be seen that came out of
great tribulation.

Rev 8:6 has the angels preparing to sound the trumpets though, not reporting on them sounding. And 8:2 has them being given trumpets not already possessing them.

These are not reports of the trumpets having already happened. They are announcements of the trumpets about to happen.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Inkfingers]

John is telling us the story of what happened when they had
stood before God. None of the trumpets sound in Rev. 8-11.
It is just the story of what happened back when they did.
Rev. 7 shows men are where?
came out of great tribulation
in His temple

But Rev. 15 ends revealing that this is impossible unless the
seven plagues of the seven angels had ended.
In Rev. 15, they leave the temple of heaven carrying the
seven plagues. as in the plagues of the seven trumpets
The beast in the east - will give them seven full vials.
The seven plagues of their own must end before men can
enter into the temple of God.
At the end of chapter 15, which goes in Rev. 7 is when John
heard and watched the seven trumpets be sounded.

So are you suggesting that trumpets and bowls all happen during seal 5 and 6, with seal 7 just being the angels filing their report of what happened during then?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Inkfingers]

Rev. 7:1 opens into the time just ahead of the 4th seal.
It begins a new vision. It is not a continuation of the 6th seal.
John gets a new vision that will go deeper into the times which
he has already been told of. The fourth seal rider/s have more
than one weapon type and this links it to the time of "four corners" Ezekiel 7 shows at "four corners" is when the worst
of the heathen gets sent to destroy Israel. It is noted by the
heathen has more than type of weapon, such as a sword, famine, and pestilence. This is when a sealing must take place
later in Ezekiel 9. This one in chapter 9 that does the setting
the mark of protection is also dressed inline with the seven
angels of Rev. 15. in linen
The third seal has a voice being heard. The fourth seal has "the
voice". I believe they are the same voice.

The bowls do not start till after the time of silence of the 7th
seal. They are all full of God's wrath, whereas none of the first
six trumpets are full strength judgments. God's wrath does not
start till the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet. The church changed
will return to heaven and later come out of heaven as His
armies. The seventh seal will have been opened and the vials
will be ongoing already. None of the trumpets and vials happen at the same time. The trumpets end in the 6th seal, and the
vials start after the 7th seal is opened and silence in heaven.
Unlike during the trumpets being sounded in heaven, the vials
angels/former trumpets angels will be sent - told to go and pour. There will not be another set of angels doing the chaos for them.

So you are suggesting that the trumpets happen after seal 4 and before seal 7, whilst the bowls all happen after seal 7?

If so, no later than trumpet 4 can be part of seal 5 (as trumpet 4, like seal 6, is when sun and moon darken).

 

[Inkfingers]

Also, given that.....

"Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”" (Rev 11:15)

meaning that Christ's kingdom begins on Earth at the 7th trumpet.

And then Rev 10 tells us that God's mystery is fulfilled at the 7th Trumpet:

"but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled" (Rev 10:7)

And that the Temple is opened at the same time:

“And the temple of God was opened in heaven” (Rev 11:19)

Do you think it likely that the 'rapture' is at the 7th (last) Trumpet?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Luke17:37]

I personally think the mark of the beast is already accomplished in the issuance of a serial number for all citizens in America; our social security number.

Most people get their social security numbers as babies or very young children, which means they don't make a choice in the matter. You don't have one, or are you not an American? It's not required for buying or selling. I think it will be something like a credit/banking card on or in the skin that people will be required to have when they start working and paying for things. So faithful Christians will bravely walk away from jobs and homes... And the children who don't know Jesus may resent their parents for not getting the mark and turn them in to be killed. (Matthew 10:21).

 

[John Davidson]

I stand Corrected. I was a WELS and I really dont know as much as what the Missouri teaches.

It was just as I suspected. WELS believes just like the Missouri Synod, that the rapture or catching away occurs on the last day when Christ returns.

https://WELS.net/FAQ/wels-belief-on-rapture/

 

[Luke17:37]

Also, given that.....

"Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”" (Rev 11:15)

meaning that Christ's kingdom begins on Earth at the 7th trumpet.

And then Rev 10 tells us that God's mystery is fulfilled at the 7th Trumpet:

"but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled" (Rev 10:7)

And that the Temple is opened at the same time:

“And the temple of God was opened in heaven” (Rev 11:19)

Do you think it likely that the 'rapture' is at the 7th (last) Trumpet?

Yes; I believe the return of Christ and the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the gathering of the surviving elect is at the 7th trumpet.

And my theory is that the trumpets and bowls coincide but are focused on two different perspectives--global/universal, and the government of the beast. (1st trumpet and 1st bowl, 2nd trumpet and 2nd bowl, ... 7th trumpet and 7th bowl). My other theory is that the trumpets and bowls are during the last year of the Tribulation.

Because of Matthew 13, gathering the tares preceding the gathering of the wheat, I don't believe the gathering of the elect can occur before the bowls of wrath are poured out.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[John Davidson]

There will not be a rapture before the 7th trumpet.

I'm not sure about that.

But Thessalonians 4 does tell us that the dead in Christ are raised prior to the rapture. The book of John instructs us that the dead aren't raised until the last day. So it's easy to conclude that the rapture can't possibly take place until the last day.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[W2L]

I'm not sure about that.

But Thessalonians 4 does tell us that the dead in Christ are raised prior to the rapture. The book of John instructs us that the dead aren't raised until the last day. So it's easy to conclude that the rapture can't possibly take place until the last day.

What about Colossians 3:1-4?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[John Davidson]

What about Colossians 3:1-4?

I don't see where the confusion exists. When Christ appears he will raise the dead and judgment will take place. We will appear with him and judge the nations. Not really sure why this is confusing for you. That verse says nothing of a rapture.