christiansoccerplayer
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Just post the verse that actually says that God will take living people up to heaven.
Until I see it stated and I sure can't see it in the quotes you give, then I will continue to refute it as a false theory.
Thanks for thinking about it!Yes, I can see how you get there.
Bowl 2 kills all the sea, whilst trumpet 2 kills 1/3rd of it.
Bowl 3 kills the rivers, whlist trumpt 3 kills 1/3rd of rivers.
Bowl 4 scorches with the sun, whilst trumpet 4 renders 1/3rd of sun and moon dark.
Bowl 5 brings darkness and sores, whilst trumpet 5 is smoke from the pit and demons that torment but don't kill.
Bowl 6 has the Euphrates drying up and armies coming, whilst in trumpet 6 an army bound by the Euphrates is unleashed.
Bowl 7 has earthquakes, hail, Babylon destroyed and Armageddon, whilst trumpet 7 has God's Mystery complete, the Temple opened and the Kingdom coming.
Why do you think they have to start witnessing after trumpet 4?I don't think that can be the case, as the witnesses get 1,260 days, followed by 3.5 days, and that seems to be after trumpet 4.My other theory is that the trumpets and bowls are during the last year of the Tribulation.
That doesn't make sense to me, personally. I think it's suggesting we're here until after Jesus defeats our enemies, which is also expressed in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10.That may be a different event, occuring after the 1000 year reign when Satan is released and then kicked into the firey pit...
Why do you think they have to start witnessing after trumpet 4?
My theory comes from the battle of Jericho and the fact that the seventh seal is the seven trumpets. I think the battle plans of the end may mirror the battle plans from the beginning. I think it fits, because if each seal is a year and the last three and half years are the time when the mark is being forced, the two witnesses are witnessing, and some Israelite believers in Jesus are being protected (see Revelation 12:14-16) while the dragon is persecuting the rest of the saints to death (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 13:15, Revelation 17:6) then that would be halfway through the fourth seal (death from various things). And the martyrs from the fifth seal (and onward) would make sense.
That doesn't make sense to me, personally. I think it's suggesting we're here until after Jesus defeats our enemies, which is also expressed in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10.
OkayWhat would the two of you think of this alternative timeline (yes, I actually quite enjoy making thesealthough formatting them on here is a bit of a pain) based on Lukes idea of convergent trumpets and bowls:
Rev 6:1-2 ___ 1st Seal _________________ White horse – conquest (false Christs? – Matt 24:5)
Rev 6:3-4 ___ 2nd Seal _________________ Red horse – War (Matt 24:6)
Rev 6:5-6 ___ 3rd Seal _________________ Black horse – Famine (Matt 24:7)
Rev 6:7-8 ___ 4th Seal _________________ Pale horse – Death Pestilence (Matt 24:7)
Rev 6:9-11 __ 5th Seal _________________ Martyrs wait bit longer. (Beginning of the trib & apostasy of Matt 24:9-12)
I think this starts before the people begin to be martyred (before the fifth seal)._______________________
_ Rev 13 ______ Mark of beast and the Abomination of Desolation (Matthew 24:15)
The seventh seal is the seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2), so I expect 6th seal prior to the 1st trumpet and 1st bowl.____________Rev 8:1-7 ___ Rev 16:1-2 __ Trumpet 1 (hail and fire) and Bowl 1 (Sores on those who bear mark) - Matt 24:21
Rev 6:12-14 _ 6th Seal _________________ Begin of Earthquake, Red moon, Sackcloth sun, stars fall (Matt 24:29)
Okay____________Rev 8:8-9 ___ Rev 16:3 ____ Trumpet 2 (Mountain of fire into sea) and Bowl 2 (death of the sea)
____________Rev 8:10-11 _ Rev 16:4 ____ Trumpet 3 (1/3rd dead in rivers, Wormwood) and Bowl 3 (dead rivers)
____________Rev 8:12 ____ Rev 16:8 ____ Trumpet 4 (1/3rd sun and moon dark) and Bowl 4 (suns heat)
Rev 6:16-17
Where do you get this?_________________________ Face of lamb on throne (Jesus comes in clouds Matt 24:30)
Rev 7: 1-3 ___________________________ Elect of God sealed
____________Rev 9:1-11 ______________ Trumpet 5 (1st woe. Apollyon & smoke harm non-god-sealed)
____________Rev 16:10 _______________ Bowl 5 (Darkness and sores)
____________Rev 9:12-21 _____________ Trumpet 6 (2nd woe. Euphrates Army. Witnesses killed after 1260 days)
___________ Rev 16:12 ________________Bowl 6 (Euphrates dries, armies)
____________Rev 10/11 _______________ Trumpet 7 (Kingdom come.God's sealed gathered (Matt 24:31))
____________Rev 16:17 _______________ Bowl 7 (3rd Woe, Quake, Hail, Babylon destroyed, Armageddon)
Rev 8 ______ 7th seal _________________ Silence, then angels give a detailed report of the trumpet events
Rev 20 ______________________________ 1000 years reign,
Rev 20 ______________________________ After 1000 years Gog-Magog war, Satan final defeat
Rev 21+ _____________________________ White Throne Judgement, Tares into fire, New Jerusalem
Their death marks the end of the second woe. The first woe is the fifth trumpet. The sting of the locust things lasts five months. Does it make sense that the sixth trumpet would be about three and a half years? To me, it doesn't. I think they start witnessing around the time the mark is enforced. Generally, three and half years are described several times in the Bible associated with the beast's reign (Daniel 12:7, Daniel 12:11, Revelation 12:14, Revelation 13:5).The fact that they don't get mentioned until then.Why do you think they have to start witnessing after trumpet 4?
I think this starts before the people begin to be martyred (before the fifth seal).
Where do you get this?
They go together. Some will fall away first, some during, some after. But the falling way and the revealing of the man of sin comes before the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).The falling away comes before the man of sin is revealed...
Ah. Okay. This is how I see Revelation 6:16-17. These people are hiding in the rocks (6th seal... before the trumpets even start) basically asking to be crushed to death because they don't want to meet the Lamb and His wrath. I think it's interesting that they know about "Him Who sits on the throne" and "the Lamb" and His wrath, even though they don't worship Him. I'm convinced they know about Him because the Christians worldwide have been providing the testimony of the Holy Spirit as they are brought before men to be slain (Luke 21:12-19, Matthew 10:16-22, etc.). I don't think He actually appears in the sky until the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52), the seventh trumpet, when the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of our Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 11:15-19). When He appears, they won't be able to hide in the rocks. The armies that surround Jerusalem will die while they stand on their feet (Zechariah 14:12) and the birds will come eat their flesh (Revelation 19:17-19, Revelation 19:21).Rev 6:16-17, which you cut off the quote block.
They go together. Some will fall away first, some during, some after. But the falling way and the revealing of the man of sin comes before the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).
Ah. Okay. This is how I see Revelation 6:16-17. These people are hiding in the rocks (6th seal... before the trumpets even start) basically asking to be crushed to death because they don't want to meet the Lamb and His wrath. I think it's interesting that they know about "Him Who sits on the throne" and "the Lamb" and His wrath, even though they don't worship Him. I'm convinced they know about Him because the Christians worldwide have been providing the testimony of the Holy Spirit as they are brought before men to be slain (Luke 21:12-19, Matthew 10:16-22, etc.). I don't think He actually appears in the sky until the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52), the seventh trumpet, when the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of our Lord Jesus Christ (Revelation 11:15-19). When He appears, they won't be able to hide in the rocks. The armies that surround Jerusalem will die while they stand on their feet (Zechariah 14:12) and the birds will come eat their flesh (Revelation 19:17-19, Revelation 19:21).
I think the seal of God is placed on some of the Israelite elect before the trumpets (before the earth is hurt with the plagues) but maybe even around the time when the mark of the beast starts being enforced, since the protected woman flees into the wilderness for a time, times, and a half a time (3.5 years, I believe) and the dragon isn't permitted to kill her. Only 144,000 of the Israelite elect get this mark for protection. I believe the rest of the elect (Gentile and Israelite) who are Christians at that point will be largely given into the hands of the beast to be slain. But then there will also be people coming to Christ in the plagues (e.g., Hosea 5:14-15 and Hosea 6:1-3) and some of them should also survive.My point is that they are hiding because he has been revealed in the clouds. That fits because it happens immediately before the seal of God is placed upon the elect in (Revelation 7:1-3). It is though possible that Jesus will come as part of the trumpet 7 events and not before.
Thanks, CSP, at least you have the courage of your belief to reply to me.
I think the seal of God is placed on some of the Israelite elect before the trumpets (before the earth is hurt with the plagues) but maybe even around the time when the mark of the beast starts being enforced, since the protected woman flees into the wilderness for a time, times, and a half a time (3.5 years, I believe) and the dragon isn't permitted to kill her.
Only 144,000 of the Israelite elect get this mark for protection. I believe the rest of the elect (Gentile and Israelite) who are Christians at that point will be largely given into the hands of the beast to be slain. But then there will also be people coming to Christ in the plagues (e.g., Hosea 6:1-3) and some of them should also survive
Revelation 7 is parenthetical. It isn't in a sequential timeline, so we don't know exactly when they are sealed. But we do know they are sealed before the earth is hurt by the plagues (for example, in the trumpets). And because they are sealed, they will be protected from the fifth trumpet (the scorpion-like sting that lasts five months).
If they are in the rocks hoping to be buried alive, how can they look up and see the Lamb in the sky? I think they just assume He will appear at any moment, and yet the seven trumpets remain! I don't think He's coming until the seventh trumpet. And at that time, they will be unable to protect themselves from His wrath. Technically, those with the mark will start to experience His wrath very soon with the first bowl (people with the mark get a festering sore), and it will just get worse until the Lamb is revealed in glory.
Yes, I'm increasingly wondering if Christians only get into heaven (during this period) if martyred by the beast, with only the sealed elect getting raptured. Thessaloniki was mostly Gentile though, so the rapture was preached to gentiles.
Edit: ah, but there are gentile elect, they just don't get the seal of God...so they would get raptured if they managed to survive the tribulation.
I agree that they are certainly sealed before trumpet 5, but what reference is there of the seal providing protection against earlier plagues?
Keras said:
Just post the verse that actually says that God will take living people up to heaven.
Until I see it stated and I sure can't see it in the quotes you give, then I will continue to refute it as a false theory.
Thanks, CSP, at least you have the courage of your belief to reply to me.
But that Bible passage isn't saying that God will rapture anyone up to heaven. In fact heaven is only mentioned there as the place Jesus will descend from.
@Inkfingers, it's been enjoyable talking with you today. I think your screen name is pretty cool, by the way. Are you an artist or a writer? I'm a writer who likes art. I mostly practice photography for fun and I love evangelistic film (especially the work of www.messengerfilms.com). My brother is a very talented visual artist. His fingers sometimes have ink and paint and stuff on them, but he's pretty neat, now, so mostly those things end up on his jeans from time to time.
I don't think the Gentile elect and non-sealed Israelites (to that point) can possibly survive, since the fifth trumpet afflicts everyone who doesn't have the seal of God and I just don't think God will let any Christian get this tormenting sting. I bet He will use the misery of it to turn Israelites to Christ, though. I don't think the sealed 144,000 elect get raptured, either until the seventh trumpet, although they at least have a vision of heaven as described in Revelation 14.
I've had a conviction of post-tribulation resurrection-gathering for years. I don't believe there will be a rapture (gathering) of anyone until the one when Jesus appears after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). 2 Thessalonians 1 describes how His coming will bring rest to the elect and punishment to the wicked, and then Paul goes on to say in chapter 2 how the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him hasn't happened and won't come until after the falling away (apostasia - the apostasy) and the revealing of the man of sin who demands to be worshipped as if he was God (cp. Revelation 13:8, Revelation 13:15).
Revelation 7:1–3 (NKJV)
7 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
(1st Trumpet)
Revelation 8:7 (NKJV)
7 The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.
(2nd Trumpet)
Revelation 8:8–9 (NKJV)
8 Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. 9 And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.
You get the idea... Since the angels aren't allowed to harm the earth until these 144,000 servants are sealed, it suggests that they are sealed for their supernatural protection from these plagues. The other believers might die from the plagues, or they will die from the sword. I believe God is able to keep each one of His servants alive until he or she has fulfilled the purpose God has for them, and if they are martyred subsequently, their blood is an offering of worship to the Lord. God is pleased with them (Revelation 14:12-13).
The reason I speak out is because I want the Church to be prepared to overcome in the Tribulation (Revelation 12:11). We can't be prepared to endure in faith through the trials described if we expect to be gone before any of these hard days start. Nobody knows if God may cut short their days and spare them from having to be on the earth during this time (Isaiah 57:1, Revelation 3:10), but it's best to be prepared in the event that these things come upon our generation.
The two witnesses also have the seal of God but are slain in the end as well. That might be my next puzzle; figuring out their identity (I'm not convinced that they are 2 people as they are also lampstands and that usually means churches). I don't believe that the sealed elect are protected from everything - indeed the whole events are cut short for their sake!
Yes, I am pretty much convinced that the rapture will be at the 7th trumpet; when God's mystery is completed, the temple opens and the kindgom comes - if that isn't rapture time I don't know what is!!
That's a good and interesting point, yes. It seems very likely then that the sealing is prior to trumpet 1 and seal 6.
That's why I'm trying to set out a timeline as well. If I can depict it clearly, in a visual form that lays the pattern out, it may help people.
There are several things we know, but some timeline details can only be theories, since the Bible doesn't tell us everything definitively.
Best wishes.
Great effort to hit me with all you've got!Philippians 3:20-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
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