Rapture will happen..does it matter when?

[mark kennedy]

You are really missing the point.

Yes, the Sixth Seal is paralleled by Joel 2 and many other graphic prophesies. Note that fire is the main component of it. Just as 2 Peter 3:7 and Hebrews 10:26 tells us.
The one thing that can and will literally fulfil all the cosmic and earthly things that will happen on that unexpected and shocking Day, is a Coronal mass ejection; an explosion of the sun's surface, a known phenomenon that scientists warn is likely to happen. So godless people will dismiss it as a natural event, because it will be.
I put in Ezekiel 34:11-31 because that is the destiny for us Christian people, the Israel of God, soon after the day of cloud and darkness.

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev. 6:15.17)
​

They know this is the wrath of the Lamb, how I do not know, but they know it for a fact. Nothing dismissive in their reaction, just a desperate need to escape.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[keras]

They know this is the wrath of the Lamb, how I do not know, but they know it for a fact. Nothing dismissive in their reaction, just a desperate need to escape.

Well, if you must take it that everybody, all 7 billion + of us humans will say those words, ok, but I don't see that as being feasible. Even if they all did and I certainly will say it, most will repudiate it later. We know this because they will go on to be members of the OWG and happily take the mark in order to survive.
What is far more important for all of us to know, is what it will be and what we should do, not if, but when it happens.

 

[mark kennedy]

Well, if you must take it that everybody, all 7 billion + of us humans will say those words, ok, but I don't see that as being feasible. Even if they all did and I certainly will say it, most will repudiate it later. We know this because they will go on to be members of the OWG and happily take the mark in order to survive.
What is far more important for all of us to know, is what it will be and what we should do, not if, but when it happens.

They know it's wrath not weather, they know it's the Lamb. I don't know how they know but they know. The seals happen early and probably run their course in months, if not weeks. It's years later before the trumpets start so they go from cowering in these caves to thinking they can win.

 

[Luke17:37]

They know it's wrath not weather, they know it's the Lamb. I don't know how they know but they know. The seals happen early and probably run their course in months, if not weeks. It's years later before the trumpets start so they go from cowering in these caves to thinking they can win.

I just explained that. In the sixth seal these things have become common knowledge: the wrath, the One who sits on the throne, and the Lamb. How do they become common knowledge? Through the testimony of the Christians whose blood they have been filling the earth with (in the fifth seal, and probably a little before).

Luke 21:12-18
12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.

Matthew 10:17-22
17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Revelation 17:5-6
5 And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

Revelation 18:24
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

 

[Graham Dull]

...they know who is doing this in fact it's as if they can see him because they are trying to hide from him.

I agree.
My comments below are regarding the structure of the narrative of the 'seals,' which needs to be kept in mind for correct interpretation.

SEVEN SEALS -- THE STRUCTURE OF THE NARRATIVE

The seven seals have a 4/3 division. The 'Four Horsemen' occupy the first section. The final three seals also form a set. The 5th, 6th, and 7th Seals have a unique literary relationship.

Fifth Seal -- God's people are crying out that judgement would come so they can be delivered.
Sixth Seal -- The wicked are crying out that judgement would not come upon them because they are unwilling to face God's wrath.
Seventh Seal -- There is silence in heaven. Everyone has been silenced by God's intervention.

God's people are silent, because they are in awe of his mighty deliverance. They are so overwhelmed initially, they cannot speak. (Awe = “an overwhelming feeling of reverence, admiration, fear, etc., produced by that which is grand, sublime, extremely powerful”) God has heard their cries (5th seal) and answered them. See Revelation 8:3 "the prayers of God’s people, went up before God." The climax of the Seventh Seal comes in Revelation 8:5.

The wicked do not speak, God has not acknowledged their cries (6th seal) to be spared from judgement, they face judgement and are destroyed. They are no more, therefore they cannot speak.

1 Corinthians 2:9 “As it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”
Amen.
.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[mark kennedy]

I agree.
My comments below are regarding the structure of the narrative of the 'seals,' which needs to be kept in mind for correct interpretation.

SEVEN SEALS -- THE STRUCTURE OF THE NARRATIVE

The seven seals have a 4/3 division. The 'Four Horsemen' occupy the first section. The final three seals also form a set. The 5th, 6th, and 7th Seals have a unique literary relationship.

World conqueror, World war, World famine, Works plague. Yes, a unique semetry considering all four riders are probable the same guy. The martyrs under the alter are his victims and the sixth seal is Gods vengeance. The silence is mercy, people are saved through out and the hush in heaven is like a wordless prayer, God's justice is prevailing on earth and heaven is next.

Fifth Seal -- God's people are crying out that judgement would come so they can be delivered.
Sixth Seal -- The wicked are crying out that judgement would not come upon them because they are unwilling to face God's wrath.
Seventh Seal -- There is silence in heaven. Everyone has been silenced by God's intervention.

The people under the altar were murdered in mass and the text is crystal clear.

God's people

are silent, because they are in awe of his mighty deliverance. They are so overwhelmed initially, they cannot speak. (Awe = “an overwhelming feeling of reverence, admiration, fear, etc., produced by that which is grand, sublime, extremely powerful”) God has heard their cries (5th seal) and answered them. See Revelation 8:3 "the prayers of God’s people, went up before God." The climax of the Seventh Seal comes in Revelation 8:5.

The wicked do not speak, God has not acknowledged their cries (6th seal) to be spared from judgement, they face judgement and are destroyed. They are no more, therefore they cannot speak.

1 Corinthians 2:9 “As it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.”
Amen.
.

The rest seems fine.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I just explained that. In the sixth seal these things have become common knowledge: the wrath, the One who sits on the throne, and the Lamb. How do they become common knowledge? Through the testimony of the Christians whose blood they have been filling the earth with (in the fifth seal, and probably a little before).

Luke 21:12-18
12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.

Matthew 10:17-22
17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Revelation 17:5-6
5 And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

Revelation 18:24
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

That's much better then God's wrath being passed off as natural phenomenon. There are also the144,000 who might be preaching themselves.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Graham Dull]

World conqueror, World war, World famine, Works plague.

HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE

Revelation 6:1-8, and Zechariah 6:1-8 are similar in content. (I've just now realized for the first time that both these 'chapter and verse references' are identical.)

Comparing these verses makes a lot of difference to the interpretation which may be applied to the 'Four horsemen of the Apocalypse.'

Zechariah 6:2-3 'The first chariot had red horses, the second black, the third white, and the fourth dappled—all of them powerful.'

Revelation 6:2 'I looked, and there before me was a white horse.' (And red, black, and pale. 6:1-8)

The horses in Zechariah pulled a chariot, whereas those in Revelation carried a rider. Thus, there are obvious differences between the narratives. But, none-the-less, both had four chariots/horses, and the horses were of different colours.

QUESTIONS
What are we to make of the similarities between these passages? And what should Zechariah 6 teach us about Revelation 6? In Zechariah, who was in control of the horses? In Revelation, who is in control of the horses?
.

 

[mark kennedy]

HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE

Revelation 6:1-8, and Zechariah 6:1-8 are similar in content. (I've just now realized for the first time that both these 'chapter and verse references' are identical.)

I've studied this comparison before, I've never found a good correlary between those two passages.

Comparing

these verses makes a lot of difference to the interpretation which may be applied to the 'Four horsemen of the Apocalypse.'

Zechariah 6:2-3 'The first chariot had red horses, the second black, the third white, and the fourth dappled—all of them powerful.'

Revelation 6:2 'I looked, and there before me was a white horse.' (And red, black, and pale. 6:1-8)

The horses in Zechariah pulled a chariot, whereas those in Revelation carried a rider. Thus, there are obvious differences between the narratives. But, none-the-less, both had four chariots/horses, and the horses were of different colours.

QUESTIONS
What are we to make of the similarities between these passages? And what should Zechariah 6 teach us about Revelation 6? In Zechariah, who was in control of the horses? In Revelation, who is in control of the horses?
.

Its more interesting that there are four then both have horses. What it makes me think of is the four corners of heaven. The forth one is kind of intriguing. The pale rider is actually a grayish green, the idea is decay. Drapple, I've heard, is associated with the prostitution and a polluted bed. Other then that they are war horses with little in common except that.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Graham Dull]

...four then both have horses. What it makes me think of is the four corners of heaven.

Similarities between Zechariah, Revelation

The horses/chariots ((Zechariah 6:3 ...were all powerful.)) They were God's horses. ((Zechariah 6:5 These are the four spirits of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world.)) They went to the north, west, and south, etc. Zechariah 6:6-8.

Zechariah 1:8-11 describes the situation in Judah at the time. It was not pleasant, his people were broken and downcast. God had called his people out of Babylon because it was time to come home. Those who followed God's instructions, left Babylon and returned to Jerusalem. But Jerusalem was in shambles. Zechariah's vision begins in ((Zechariah 1:8, I had a vision, and there before me was a man mounted on a red horse... Behind him were red, brown and white horses.))((Zechariah 1:10-11 They are the ones the Lord has sent to go throughout the earth... They reported back, "We have gone throughout the earth and found the whole world at rest and in peace."))

While the rest of the world was at peace, God's people weren't doing so well. ((Zechariah 1:12-16 Then the angel of the Lord said, “Lord Almighty, how long will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem and from the towns of Judah... So the Lord spoke kind and comforting words... This is what the Lord Almighty says: "I am very jealous for Jerusalem and Zion, and I am very angry with the nations that feel secure. I was only a little angry, but they went too far with the punishment... I will return to Jerusalem with mercy."))

Similarities to Revelation 6 are --

It is time for God to restore his people.​

• ((God said, "I am very jealous for Jerusalem and Zion." Zechariah 1:14)) Compare Revelation 6:10
  
• ((I am very angry with the nations that feel secure. Zechariah 1:15)) Compare Revelation 6:17

In Zechariah, when God eventually does send out his horses, they have multiplied greatly in strength. The horses have become teams of horses, and they pull chariots. ((Zechariah 6:3 All of them are powerful.))((Zechariah 6:8 And they have given my spirit rest in the land.))

The horses in Zechariah are clearly God's horses, and I believe they are God's horses in Revelation.

As God restored his downcast people in Zechariah; likewise in Revelation, God restores his persecuted people at the 'seventh seal.' ((Revelation 8:5 And there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.)) (This is often referred to as the Theophany.) The 'Theophany' is seen again at the 'seventh trumpet' Revelation 11:19, and again at the 'seventh plague' Revelation 16:21. It is first introduced in Revelation 4:5 'The throne of God.'
.

"the four corners of heaven."

The four corners of heaven (Similarities)--

((Zechariah 6:5 These are the four spirits (winds) of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world.))

((Revelation 7:1 I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth.)) Revelation 7:1 reveals God's restraint. God will not use his great power indiscriminately. He waits for the right time. Firstly he secures his people, which is accomplished in Revelation 7. The seventh seal follows immediately in chapter 8.

 

[Psalm3704]

We wait for righteousness, and that happens in Rev. 19 before
the marriage supper of the Lamb and the armies/us return
out of heaven.

Not possible vinsight. Your argument here just went over the cliff as it contradicts your own post-tribulation rapture view about Christians not going to heaven during the rapture.






.

 

[mark kennedy]

Similarities between Zechariah, Revelation

The horses/chariots ((Zechariah 6:3 ...were all powerful.)) They were God's horses. ((Zechariah 6:5 These are the four spirits of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world.)) They went to the north, west, and south, etc. Zechariah 6:6-8.

Zechariah 1:8-11 describes the situation in Judah at the time. It was not pleasant, his people were broken and downcast. God had called his people out of Babylon because it was time to come home. Those who followed God's instructions, left Babylon and returned to Jerusalem. But Jerusalem was in shambles. Zechariah's vision begins in ((Zechariah 1:8, I had a vision, and there before me was a man mounted on a red horse... Behind him were red, brown and white horses.))((Zechariah 1:10-11 They are the ones the Lord has sent to go throughout the earth... They reported back, "We have gone throughout the earth and found the whole world at rest and in peace."))

While the rest of the world was at peace, God's people weren't doing so well. ((Zechariah 1:12-16 Then the angel of the Lord said, “Lord Almighty, how long will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem and from the towns of Judah... So the Lord spoke kind and comforting words... This is what the Lord Almighty says: "I am very jealous for Jerusalem and Zion, and I am very angry with the nations that feel secure. I was only a little angry, but they went too far with the punishment... I will return to Jerusalem with mercy."))

Similarities to Revelation 6 are --

It is time for God to restore his people.​

• ((God said, "I am very jealous for Jerusalem and Zion." Zechariah 1:14)) Compare Revelation 6:10
  
• ((I am very angry with the nations that feel secure. Zechariah 1:15)) Compare Revelation 6:17

In Zechariah, when God eventually does send out his horses, they have multiplied greatly in strength. The horses have become teams of horses, and they pull chariots. ((Zechariah 6:3 All of them are powerful.))((Zechariah 6:8 And they have given my spirit rest in the land.))

The horses in Zechariah are clearly God's horses, and I believe they are God's horses in Revelation.

As God restored his downcast people in Zechariah; likewise in Revelation, God restores his persecuted people at the 'seventh seal.' ((Revelation 8:5 And there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.)) (This is often referred to as the Theophany.) The 'Theophany' is seen again at the 'seventh trumpet' Revelation 11:19, and again at the 'seventh plague' Revelation 16:21. It is first introduced in Revelation 4:5 'The throne of God.'
.


The four corners of heaven (Similarities)--

((Zechariah 6:5 These are the four spirits (winds) of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world.))

((Revelation 7:1 I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth.)) Revelation 7:1 reveals God's restraint. God will not use his great power indiscriminately. He waits for the right time. Firstly he secures his people, which is accomplished in Revelation 7. The seventh seal follows immediately in chapter 8.

A friend of mine, a new Christian was reading thru the Bible and encountered this passage, naturally thought of the four horsemen. There is one major problem, the chariots are angelic and the four horsemen are most likely the Antichrist. I understand the appeal but direct corelaries are elusive. The fact that they are global is interesting but the comparison starts breaking down after that. Like I said, the fact that there are four is more interesting then the fact that they are horsemen

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Graham Dull]

Where the horses went in Zechariah 6 is where
someone would have to be to get on them.

Where did the horses go?

One horse went north, one went west, one went south, and one went east. ((Zechariah 6:5-6 These are the four spirits of heaven… The chariot with the black horses going toward the north country… the white horses toward the west… the dappled horses toward the south.))

Does this agree with what you are saying?