Rapture will happen..does it matter when?

[Psalm3704]

No. I didn't dodge anything. Answer that question yourself by explaining why you wear clothes!

LOL! Just as I expected the answer to be......WRONG!!! Well least you tried.

God didn't cover them because they were naked. They already covered themselves in fig leafs. I even said they were clothe in fig leafs in the question. Wanna take another stab at it Eb or care to pass it by?

Here's the question again.

Why did God cover Adam and Eve in garments when He visited them when they were already covered with fig leaves?

I'll simply leave this with you Psalm3704 because you simply can't see the concept of the many ways scripture communicates salvation.

That being the case you'll never get it...at least not at this point.

Sorry old man, I don't think anyone else will either. Nobody except you thinks the first resurrection means born again. As Jesus said to Nicodemus “You are a teacher of Israel and you don't know these things?" John 3:10.






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[Psalm3704]

They always try to associate the gathering after the tribulation as the rapture but nowhere does the bible tells us the gathering is the rapture.

But the bible does reveal what the gathering after the tribulation is and nowhere does these scriptures mention anyone being caught up during the gathering.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
21 “I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them.22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward. 23 The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I have dealt with them, and hidden My face from them.”’

25 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name— 26 after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations,28 then they shall know that I am theLord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer.29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord God.”​

No rapture found here!

Isaiah 49:8-26 New Living Translation (NLT)
8 This is what the Lord says:
“At just the right time, I will respond to you.
On the day of salvation I will help you.
I will protect you and give you to the people
as my covenant with them.
Through you I will reestablish the land of Israel
and assign it to its own people again.
9 I will say to the prisoners, ‘Come out in freedom,’
and to those in darkness, ‘Come into the light.’
They will be my sheep, grazing in green pastures
and on hills that were previously bare.
10 They will neither hunger nor thirst.
The searing sun will not reach them anymore.
For the Lord in his mercy will lead them;
he will lead them beside cool waters.
11 And I will make my mountains into level paths for them.
The highways will be raised above the valleys.
12 See, my people will return from far away,
from lands to the north and west,
and from as far south as Egypt.
13 Sing for joy, O heavens!
Rejoice, O earth!
Burst into song, O mountains!
For the Lord has comforted his people
and will have compassion on them in their suffering.
14 Yet Jerusalem says, “The Lord has deserted us;
the Lord has forgotten us.”
15 “Never! Can a mother forget her nursing child?
Can she feel no love for the child she has borne?
But even if that were possible,
I would not forget you!
16 See, I have written your name on the palms of my hands.
Always in my mind is a picture of Jerusalem’s walls in ruins.
17 Soon your descendants will come back,
and all who are trying to destroy you will go away.
18 Look around you and see,
for all your children will come back to you.
As surely as I live,” says theLord,
“they will be like jewels or bridal ornaments for you to display.
19 “Even the most desolate parts of your abandoned land
will soon be crowded with your people.
Your enemies who enslaved you
will be far away.
20 The generations born in exile will return and say,
‘We need more room! It’s crowded here!’
21 Then you will think to yourself,
‘Who has given me all these descendants?
For most of my children were killed,
and the rest were carried away into exile.
I was left here all alone.
Where did all these people come from?
Who bore these children?
Who raised them for me?’”
22 This is what the Sovereign Lordsays:
“See, I will give a signal to the godless nations.
They will carry your little sons back to you in their arms;
they will bring your daughters on their shoulders.
23 Kings and queens will serve you
and care for all your needs.
They will bow to the earth before you
and lick the dust from your feet.
Then you will know that I am the Lord.
Those who trust in me will never be put to shame.”
24 Who can snatch the plunder of war from the hands of a warrior?
Who can demand that a tyrantlet his captives go?
25 But the Lord says,
“The captives of warriors will be released,
and the plunder of tyrants will be retrieved.
For I will fight those who fight you,
and I will save your children.
26 I will feed your enemies with their own flesh.
They will be drunk with rivers of their own blood.
All the world will know that I, the Lord,
am your Savior and your Redeemer,
the Mighty One of Israel.​

No rapture found here either!

Jeremiah 31:1-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 “At the same time,” says the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”
2 Thus says the Lord:
“The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness—
Israel, when I went to give him rest.”
3 The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying:
“Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.
4 Again I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt,
O virgin of Israel!
You shall again be adorned with your tambourines,
And shall go forth in the dances of those who rejoice.
5 You shall yet plant vines on the mountains of Samaria;
The planters shall plant and eat them as ordinary food.
6 For there shall be a day
When the watchmen will cry on Mount Ephraim,
‘Arise, and let us go up to Zion,
To the Lord our God.’”
7 For thus says the Lord:
“Sing with gladness for Jacob,
And shout among the chief of the nations;
Proclaim, give praise, and say,
‘O Lord, save Your people,
The remnant of Israel!’
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
And gather them from the ends of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child
And the one who labors with child, together;
A great throng shall return there.
9 They shall come with weeping,
And with supplications I will lead them.
I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters,
In a straight way in which they shall not stumble;
For I am a Father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.
10 “Hear the word of the Lord, O nations,
And declare it in the isles afar off, and say,
‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,
And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.’
11 For the Lord has redeemed Jacob,
And ransomed him from the hand of one stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion,
Streaming to the goodness of the Lord—
For wheat and new wine and oil,
For the young of the flock and the herd;
Their souls shall be like a well-watered garden,
And they shall sorrow no more at all.
13 “Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance,
And the young men and the old, together;
For I will turn their mourning to joy,
Will comfort them,
And make them rejoice rather than sorrow.
14 I will satiate the soul of the priests with abundance,
And My people shall be satisfied with My goodness, says the Lord.”​

And no rapture found here as well. In fact, nowhere in all the prophecies of the old testament does the bible reveal a rapture or even a resurrection after Daniel's 70th week.

But!!! Guess what? The bible does reveal the resurrection part of the rapture happening in Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1. And it reveals the resurrection happening BEFORE Christ comes to judge the world.

Well unless there's two raptures: One before the tribulation and one after the tribulation, I think Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 pretty much refutes any possibility of a post-tribulation rapture.

Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.​

The Jewish people have always been scattered and always gathered back to their homeland, whether if it's immediately after or after 70 years or after 2000 years, God always brings His people back to Israel, and none of those past gatherings involved a rapture, it won't be any different this time.

The only difference this time, it will be their last regathering and this time, Christ will be waiting for them when they return. This is why the final gathering is mentioned numerous ties in the new testament prophecies: Christ's presence makes this gathering unique over all others.

Matthew 23:37 New King James Version (NKJV)
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!​

This time, Jesus will get what He's always wanted at the end.








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[ebedmelech]

LOL! Just as I expected the answer to be......WRONG!!! Well least you tried.

God didn't cover them because they were naked. They already covered themselves in fig leafs. I even said they were clothe in fig leafs in the question. Wanna take another stab at it Eb or care to pass it by?

Actually I already knew you would give a wrong answer. It goes deeper than that but you're reading so shallow that you don't get it. Adam and Eve died spiritually in their sin against God. God did not cover them with fig leaves...they covered themselves because their eyes opened to their nakedness through their sin!

Now...the first sacrifice was an animal which God killed and used the skin to cover their nakedness. It' right there in Genesis 3:21! That sacrifice of that animal set the pattern of animal sacrifice for sin.

Here ended the lesson!

Sorry old man, I don't think anyone else will either. Nobody except you thinks the first resurrection means born again. As Jesus said to Nicodemus “You are a teacher of Israel and you don't know these things?" John 3:10.
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You still miss the boat! I hope you're not "a teacher" because your class would be wholly errant in understanding. Jesus told Nicodemus "you must be born again" because we're all dead spiritually in Adam because of his sin. In salvation through Christ...that spirtual death passed by Adam makes us alive to God through the Holy Spirit.

Once again try Ephesians 2:1-7...try reading it and see if it sinks in.

 

[mark kennedy]

This thread is to discuss what is important. does it truly matter when the rapture happens? Or does it matter more what we do until then seeing as how the bible states that we will never know the time, day, month, or year?

THIS IS ONLY FOR DEBATE NOT CONVERTING.

If it gets to wild and people start hating on others beliefs then I will ask that he thread be taken down.

The object is to have a good healthy discussion with the KINGDOM and not single denominations.

I like to style myself as the Pentecostal Lutheran, I was raised Lutheran but now attend and am a leader at a Church of God (TN) church

I don't think the rapture as far as when is essential doctrine. Dispensationalists will explain there view from the economy of God's redemption and Covenant theologians in terms the covenant with God and Israel. Proof texts are nearly impossible to nail down. For me its one of the more esoteric nonessential doctrine. The resurrection is essential, when it actually happens is the providence of God.

My first introduction was CS Lovett Latest Word on the Last Days. Its was covenant Theology which reads like a history lesson and I've always took for granted that the church will face the Antichrist. It was years before I encountered Hal Linsey and the Late Great pLanet Earth. His discussion of Dispensationalism was reasonable enough. After the Messiah is rejected at the end of the sixty ninth week God's prophetic stop watch is stopped with seven years to go.

What's more for years I would have told you I was mid trib. I couldn't imagine the church going through the vials but it did appear to be after the abomination that causes desolation.

There was always one thing about pre trib I liked. When the sixth seal is sounded everyone, at it specifically say everyone is hiding in cliffs and dens of the mountains saying hide us from the of God's wrath. Question, how do they know that and where are the believers, I certainly don't think we will be bidding in caves at his return. The Rapture could explain that.

Then we have a new and recurring problem. Who are the martyrs is the church was raptured? These questions go on and on, no amount of dogma or drama will fix this doctrinal rubrics cube.

To answer the quest, I think the question is more important then what conclusion you come to. It focuses us on blessed hope, the redemption of the purchase price, the translation of our body's into the perfect image of the Son of God. In that sense it's vital, healthy and very exciting for believers. Placing the actual time of the rapture on the other hand is elusive at best.

 

[Tull]

People die everyday....its their rapture if they are Christians.

 

[keras]

There was always one thing about pre trib I liked. When the sixth seal is sounded everyone, at it specifically say everyone is hiding in cliffs and dens of the mountains saying hide us from the of God's wrath. Question, how do they know that and where are the believers, I certainly don't think we will be bidding in caves at his return. The Rapture could explain that.

Careful reading of Revelation 6:15 proves that everyone alive at that time will experience the Lord's Day of wrath. Confirmed by Luke 21:35, also the context of Luke 23:30, Isaiah 2:21. We ARE told to take shelter on that terrible Day. Isaiah 26:20-21
The Sixth Seal is not the glorious Return of Jesus, they are years apart.

 

[mark kennedy]

Careful reading of Revelation 6:15 proves that everyone alive at that time will experience the Lord's Day of wrath. Confirmed by Luke 21:35, also the context of Luke 23:30, Isaiah 2:21. We ARE told to take shelter on that terrible Day. Isaiah 26:20-21
The Sixth Seal is not the glorious Return of Jesus, they are years apart.

Careful reading of Revelation 6:16 tells us they call the rock to fall and hide them from his face. His return isn't till the end but how do they know the cataclysm aren't just natural disasters?

 

[Psalm3704]

This was what I said:

They already covered themselves in fig leafs. I even said they were clothe in fig leafs in the question.​

They already covered themselves in fig leafs. I even said they were clothe in fig leafs in the question.

And this was your reply:

they covered themselves because their eyes opened to their nakedness through their sin!​

Actually I already knew you would give a wrong answer. It goes deeper than that but you're reading so shallow that you don't get it. Adam and Eve died spiritually in their sin against God. God did not cover them with fig leaves...they covered themselves because their eyes opened to their nakedness through their sin!

Why are you repeating the things I've said? Running out of creative rebuttals?

Now...the first sacrifice was an animal which God killed and used the skin to cover their nakedness. It' right there in Genesis 3:21! That sacrifice of that animal set the pattern of animal sacrifice for sin.

Here ended the lesson!

That's the popular answer but it's the wrong answer. It's a human reasoning answer. Check the bible for the biblical answer.

No such things as death in the supernatural realm. God is in the supernatural realm. They were still in the garden with God. Try again.

Jesus told Nicodemus "you must be born again" because we're all dead spiritually in Adam because of his sin. In salvation through Christ...that spirtual death passed by Adam makes us alive to God through the Holy Spirit.

And again, Jesus did not tell Nicodemus the first resurrection means born again. And don't deny it Eb, you did say that in a previous post.









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[keras]

Careful reading of Revelation 6:16 tells us they call the rock to fall and hide them from his face. His return isn't till the end but how do they know the cataclysm aren't just natural disasters?

They don't and that is why most people will continue on in their disbelief of God.
But we Christians do know God has instigated this disaster and we must call out to Him on that Day; Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, for His protection. Isaiah 43:2

 

[mark kennedy]

They don't and that is why most people will continue on in their disbelief of God.
But we Christians do know God has instigated this disaster and we must call out to Him on that Day; Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, for His protection. Isaiah 43:2

Your directly contradicting the text, they know who is doing this in fact it's as if they can see him because they are trying to hide from him. We know the 144,000 are protected from wrath so maybe they are preaching. There is a countless multitude that makes it through the tribulation, saved how if there's no one to tell them the gospel.

I don't think disbelief is the issue but hardness of heart. Even in the tribulation the promise is to who so ever will. Armaggedon is called the valley of decision which is a perfect description of the tribulation period. Time of decision, everybody off the fence.

 

[keras]

Your directly contradicting the text, they know who is doing this in fact it's as if they can see him because they are trying to hide from him.

But He is not seen at the Sixth Seal terrible Day of the Lord's wrath.
Obviously, from what happens after that Day, most of the survivors will treat the cosmic and earthly events as a natural disaster and form a One World Govt
We Christians won't, though as we look to the Lord for our redemption and restoration into the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-31

 

[ebedmelech]

This was what I said:

They already covered themselves in fig leafs. I even said they were clothe in fig leafs in the question.​

​

And this was your reply:

they covered themselves because their eyes opened to their nakedness through their sin!​

Why are you repeating the things I've said? Running out of creative rebuttals?

Thee only thing creative is the wrong way you asked the question...which was:

Psalm3704 said: ↑
Why did God cover Adam and Eve in garments when He visited them when they were already covered with fig leaves?

That was a "bait and switch"...which I never bought into.

That's the popular answer but it's the wrong answer. It's a human reasoning answer. Check the bible for the biblical answer.

No such things as death in the supernatural realm. God is in the supernatural realm. They were still in the garden with God. Try again.

And again, Jesus did not tell Nicodemus the first resurrection means born again. And don't deny it Eb, you did say that in a previous post.
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Like I said...you don't get it...but hopefully one day you will...meantime stay in you unbiblical wonderland.

 

[mark kennedy]

But He is not seen at the Sixth Seal terrible Day of the Lord's wrath.
Obviously, from what happens after that Day, most of the survivors will treat the cosmic and earthly events as a natural disaster and form a One World Govt
We Christians won't, though as we look to the Lord for our redemption and restoration into the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-31

Not according to the Revelation:

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev. 6:15.17)
​

There is no indication of a naturalistic conclusion. 'Hide us from the Lamb', is definitively saying that they will know exactly who is doing this and why. Ezekiel 35:11-31 seems almost entirely irrelevant. It is simply saying Israel will be gathered together in the land under God's protection, I see no connection what so ever.

The one world government is already in place, the four horsemen are key indicators of exactly that. The martyrs beneath the altar complain and the sixth seal follows. Its pretty straight forward.

“The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. (Joel 2:31)
​

This appears to fulfill the prophecy of Joel:

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned blacklike sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. (Rev. 6:12-14)
​

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Luke17:37]

There was always one thing about pre trib I liked. When the sixth seal is sounded everyone, at it specifically say everyone is hiding in cliffs and dens of the mountains saying hide us from the of God's wrath. Question, how do they know that and where are the believers, I certainly don't think we will be bidding in caves at his return. The Rapture could explain that.

What explains it better is that the Christians have been providing testimony as they are taken captive and slain for their faith. Matthew 10:16-39. We see the initial martyrs in the fifth seal. The false prophet requires people to take the mark of the beast or die (Revelation 13). Most Christians will die. It's the blood of the Church that Jesus comes back to avenge (Revelation 17:6, Revelation 18:24).

To answer the quest, I think the question is more important then what conclusion you come to. It focuses us on blessed hope, the redemption of the purchase price, the translation of our body's into the perfect image of the Son of God. In that sense it's vital, healthy and very exciting for believers. Placing the actual time of the rapture on the other hand is elusive at best.

You just need to look again and chuck the commentaries and footnotes. Many people are deceived about this topic.

 

[mark kennedy]

What explains it better is that the Christians have been providing testimony as they are taken captive and slain for their faith. Matthew 10:16-39. We see the initial martyrs in the fifth seal. The false prophet requires people to take the mark of the beast or die (Revelation 13). Most Christians will die. It's the blood of the Church that Jesus comes back to avenge (Revelation 17:6, Revelation 18:24).

Of course I wouldn't try to argue anything else.

You just need to look again and chuck the commentaries and footnotes. Many people are deceived about this topic.

I'm content to glean what I can from commentaries and the insights of scholars and laymen alike. While I always defer to the testimony of Scripture I'm not about to discard any viable source for study or insight. I personally spend more time on exposition and exegetical study then I do reading commentaries, I do my best to be discerning. In a discussion like this, like any commentary I look at on the subject, I will take it for what it's worth and return again to see what the Scriptures are saying.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[keras]

“The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. (Joel 2:31)
This appears to fulfill the prophecy of Joel:

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned blacklike sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. (Rev. 6:12-14)

Yes, the Sixth Seal is paralleled by Joel 2 and many other graphic prophesies. Note that fire is the main component of it. Just as 2 Peter 3:7 and Hebrews 10:26 tells us.
The one thing that can and will literally fulfil all the cosmic and earthly things that will happen on that unexpected and shocking Day, is a Coronal mass ejection; an explosion of the sun's surface, a known phenomenon that scientists warn is likely to happen. So godless people will dismiss it as a natural event, because it will be.
I put in Ezekiel 34:11-31 because that is the destiny for us Christian people, the Israel of God, soon after the day of cloud and darkness.

 

[Psalm3704]

Thee only thing creative is the wrong way you asked the question...which was:

That was a "bait and switch"...which I never bought into.

Like I said...you don't get it...but hopefully one day you will...meantime stay in you unbiblical wonderland.

Giving up so soon Eb?

Not that easy to find the "right" answer is it when you google Genesis 3:21 and all the websites think it's an animal skin. Now you've run out of rebuttals, except having repeatedly say you don't get it.

Here's your problem, you're looking at the wrong place. To find out what Adam and Eve looked like you have to find out what the bible say about what we'll look like when God lives among us after the millennium. Adam and Eve lived with God, so will we someday. The bible tells us what we'll look like someday. Here's two passages.

Daniel 12:2-3 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. "Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.​

And no Eb! Adam and Eve were not nude when their eyes opened after eating the fruit. Naked doesn't always mean nudity, perverted old man. They sewed themselves fig leaves and were already covered. Besides, how can you hide your body from God, He already knows what each of us looks like. And they were the only two people in the world at the time. Who are they gonna hide nudity from?

This was what happened. After the sin, they fell from grace and lost what covered them. Instead, they were instantly covered in extreme shame and disgrace which bear their sin to a point that they even hid themselves from God. That's how embarrassing it can get for those in the future. Read Daniel 12:2 again.

Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. ​

Need more passages? Get it yourself, you might learn something new and very important most Christian don't even know.










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