Rapture timing

[greenguzzi]

Why do you say that? nothing to do with end time prophecy
Are you thinking the time Jesus spoke of was as to 70 AD or
what?

It has nothing to do with any prophecy. Revelation is not prophecy at all. It might seem to be because it's a genre that most of us are not familiar with, so we assume that it's prophecy; but it isn't. Once you get past that hurdle it's a lot easier to understand.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[greenguzzi]

The end of Rev. 10 refers to how John must prophesy again.

The fact that the word "prophesy" occurs in Revelation doesn't make it a work of prophecy. No more that the fact that the word "scientific" occurring in the works of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle makes Sherlock Holmes a scientific fact.
John's Revelation isn't prophecy.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[greenguzzi]

Sherlock Holmes is not a thus, saith the Lord piece of written
stories. Revelation is Scripture. prophesy - means just what it
says - to tell us prophecy messages.
The OT prophets of God prophesied and so did NT ones.

You miss my point. Just like any literature, the Bible consists of manifold genres. Revelation IS scripture, but it isn't prophecy. Much of scripture isn't prophecy. QED

 

[Riberra]

The fact that the word "prophesy" occurs in Revelation doesn't make it a work of prophecy. No more that the fact that the word "scientific" occurring in the works of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle makes Sherlock Holmes a scientific fact.
John's Revelation isn't prophecy.

How do you interpret Revelation 1:1-3,19 ? That seem very clear that it is a work of prophecy coming from Jesus .

Revelation 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
-----
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 

[Luke17:37]

The scriptures show that the purpose of Daniel's seventieth week (the period that people commonly call "the tribulation) is to bring Israel to repentance. And they clearly state that this program will be successful. They do not even so much as imply that its purpose is to purify the church.

This theory that the tribulation is intended to purify the church has its roots in serious bad doctrine. For our purification was completed in the blood that our perfect sacrifice, our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, shed on the cross. And any doctrine that casts even a shadow on the perfect completion of His sacrifice, attacks the very foundation of "the faith once delivered to the saints."

Jesus' sacrifice is done, but disciples are to undergo sanctification, which is a lifelong process. And suffering is one of the ways God uses to spur this process along.

1 Peter 4:16-19
16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter. 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and sinner appear?" 19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.

 

[Hazrus]

Biblewriter, I believe you are making too many absolutes out of something which is at best highly disputed amongst lovers of the Lord... for the last 2000 years.

I must admit, I think your logic and reasoning about a pre-trib "rapture" is extremely flimsy. 1 Thess 4 is not clear enough to build a doctrine on or use as a cornerstone. Having said that, I don't believe that my beliefs (Amill, partial preterism, etc) are bulletproof either; it's just that I think they have less logical holes than the pre-trib/Mill beliefs.

Regarding Greenguzzi's statement that Revelation is not prophecy, I think this is reasonably true. It's apocalyptic literature. We must remember that apocalyptic does NOT mean "of the end times". It's just what it has come to mean in reasonably modern times. Also - - see that Greenguzzi is not from the USA. Neither am I. Notice that there are very few people on here who believe in the Pre-mill and "rapture" ideas who are not from the USA. Something to think about.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Any denial that the rapture will take place is a denial of explicitly stated scripture, and is therefore rank unbelief.

Those who are going in the rapture already have the power of God working in their life to prepare them for that day. Those who are not going are easy to identify because they do not believe in the rapture and they can tell you that they are not going to go in the rapture. All of this is designed to show who is a part of us and who does not belong. So this is all really pretty convent that we can know who is who. "According to your faith be it unto you."

1John2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Luke17:37]

Those who are going in the rapture already have the power of God working in their life to prepare them for that day. Those who are not going are easy to identify because they do not believe in the rapture and they can tell you that they are not going to go in the rapture. All of this is designed to show who is a part of us and who does not belong. So this is all really pretty convent that we can know who is who. "According to your faith be it unto you."

1John2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

1 John 2:19 is talking about people who fall away or denounce their faith in God. It has nothing to do with a pre/mid-Tribulation or pre-wrath rapture.

Most people believe that Jesus will come back and gather His Church (Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). But the Bible talks about that happening after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29) and the coming of Christ (Matthew 24:30, 1 Thessalonians 4:13). Just as most of us wouldn't want to be in ISIS territory right now, we would prefer not to be here for the Tribulation. God is the one who calls the shots, though, and sometimes following Him means following Him to the slaughtering block. Remember that Jesus asked Peter to follow Him even to a cross (John 22:18-19). I don't think pre-tribulation gathering, mid-tribulation gathering, or pre-wrath gathering theories are at all compelling from Scripture. But human nature being what it is, I can certainly understand why these are popular beliefs.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[joshua 1 9]

the Bible talks about that happening after the Tribulation

If that is what you believe then you must believe that you are going to through the Tribulation. Does that mean you are a survivalist who plans to get off the grid to get through the trib?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Hazrus]

If that is what you believe then you must believe that you are going to through the Tribulation. Does that mean you are a survivalist who plans to get off the grid to get through the trib?

Sorry Joshua, this is a terrible argument which has no scriptural basis.

 

[Luke17:37]

If that is what you believe then you must believe that you are going to through the Tribulation. Does that mean you are a survivalist who plans to get off the grid to get through the trib?

No; I believe I am going to be sharing the gospel until I'm killed.

 

[Biblewriter]

Biblewriter, I believe you are making too many absolutes out of something which is at best highly disputed amongst lovers of the Lord... for the last 2000 years.

I must admit, I think your logic and reasoning about a pre-trib "rapture" is extremely flimsy. 1 Thess 4 is not clear enough to build a doctrine on or use as a cornerstone. Having said that, I don't believe that my beliefs (Amill, partial preterism, etc) are bulletproof either; it's just that I think they have less logical holes than the pre-trib/Mill beliefs.

Regarding Greenguzzi's statement that Revelation is not prophecy, I think this is reasonably true. It's apocalyptic literature. We must remember that apocalyptic does NOT mean "of the end times". It's just what it has come to mean in reasonably modern times. Also - - see that Greenguzzi is not from the USA. Neither am I. Notice that there are very few people on here who believe in the Pre-mill and "rapture" ideas who are not from the USA. Something to think about.

I did not say, or even imply, that 1 Thessalonians 4 says anything about the timing of the rapture. I only said it clearly states the fact of the rapture.

SOme here seem to have the idea that the use of the word "rapture" means, or at least implies, the pre-trib rapture. It does not. The usual positions on the timing of this event are:

pre-trib
mid-trib
pre-wrath
post-trib

ALL of these positions are call this event "the rapture."

 

[greenguzzi]

The usual positions on the timing of this event are:

pre-trib
mid-trib
pre-wrath
post-trib

ALL of these positions are call this event "the rapture."

Not just those. I wouldn't even say they were the usual positions globally. There is also "no-trib". Not everyone is a pre-millennialist. I believe that scripture points to amillennialism.