Rapture timing

[Luke17:37]

I am a thorough and committed believer in the pre-tribulation rapture. I believe that the scriptures support this conclusion. And I also believe that a thorough knowledge of the overall scope of end time prophecy makes this view not only possible, but necessary.

This makes us pretty much opposites as I say the same things about post-tribulation resurrection-gathering.

 

[Biblewriter]

I am a thorough and committed believer in the pre-tribulation rapture. I believe that the scriptures support this conclusion. And I also believe that a thorough knowledge of the overall scope of end time prophecy makes this view not only possible, but necessary.

This makes us pretty much opposites as I say the same things about post-tribulation resurrection-gathering.

If you deal only with the prophecies in the New Testament, this can indeed seem to be correct.

But when the very many explicitly stated prophecies in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah, Nahum, and Zechariah are considered, it becomes obvious that the entire end time period is not about "purifying the church," as some imagine, but about bringing rebellious Israel to repentance, so they will be ready to turn to the Lord Jesus with their entire hearts and souls when He appears.

 

[Luke17:37]

If you deal only with the prophecies in the New Testament, this can indeed seem to be correct.

But when the very many explicitly stated prophecies in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah, Nahum, and Zechariah are considered, it becomes obvious that the entire end time period is not about "purifying the church," as some imagine, but about bringing rebellious Israel to repentance, so they will be ready to turn to the Lord Jesus with their entire hearts and souls when He appears.

No, I mean the Old Testament, too. Israel is being called to repentance in the Tribulation, though (e.g., Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:3).

 

[Biblewriter]

OK. But this makes me curious. How do you see this as indicating a post trib rapture?

 

[BadHabit]

Obviously, some people are incapable of reading the first line of my signature, or they simply don't understand.

All I have said so far in this thread is EXACTLY what I intended to say and EXACTLY what I meant. Anything any of you have read into what I have written is your problem to confront, not mine. I have no need to veil my words or to weave hidden agenda or hidden intention in the words I write. As such, telling me that because I think wasting a person's time worrying about the second advent is akin to saying that I think a major portion of the Bible is a waste of time is a pathetic argument, and all it does is clearly demonstrate 2-dimensional thinking - and I abhor 2-dimensional thinking.

 

[Biblewriter]

Obviously, some people are incapable of reading the first line of my signature, or they simply don't understand.

All I have said so far in this thread is EXACTLY what I intended to say and EXACTLY what I meant. Anything any of you have read into what I have written is your problem to confront, not mine. I have no need to veil my words or to weave hidden agenda or hidden intention in the words I write. As such, telling me that because I think wasting a person's time worrying about the second advent is akin to saying that I think a major portion of the Bible is a waste of time is a pathetic argument, and all it does is clearly demonstrate 2-dimensional thinking - and I abhor 2-dimensional thinking.

I am only pointing out the unavoidable result of saying that you think it is a waste of time to worry about the second advent. As about a third of the Bible is about this, the conclusion flows naturally from the statement.

 

[BadHabit]

I am only pointing out the unavoidable result of saying that you think it is a waste of time to worry about the second advent. As about a third of the Bible is about this, the conclusion flows naturally from the statement.

No sir, it does not. You reach that conclusion because you want to see that in my statement. Take a man's words at face value. If you want to know my views on the prophetic aspects of the Bible, have the courage to ask me directly instead of inferring a meaning from a simple statement.

 

[Riberra]

Even so, many scholars of our own day neglect similar differences in various unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming. Some of these prophecies speak of His coming as a wonderful thing, full of blessing. Others speak of it as a horrible thing, full of terror. Even as the ancient scholars missed the many differences between the prophecies about His suffering and those about His glory, many modern scholars miss many similar differences between prophecies about His coming in blessing for His own, and prophecies about His coming in judgment on the wicked. Even as the earlier prophecies spoke of the same Messiah, but at different times, these unfulfilled prophecies speak of the same coming Christ, but at different times.

Isaiah 13:9 describes “the day of the Lord” as “Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger.” Jeremiah 46:10 calls it “A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries.” Joel 2:11 says that “the day of the Lord is great and very terrible;” adding, “Who can endure it?” Malachi 3:2 expands this by saying “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap.” And Amos 5:18-20 says “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord! For what good is the day of the Lord to you? It will be darkness, and not light. It will be as though a man fled from a lion, And a bear met him! Or as though he went into the house, Leaned his hand on the wall, And a serpent bit him! Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” So we see that “the day of the Lord” is a “cruel” “day of vengeance,” a time so terrible that it can not be endured, that no one can stand when the Lord appears, and that there is “no brightness” in “the day of the Lord.” This is reinforced by Joel 2:1-2, where we read that “For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand: A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.”

This statement of “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord” (Amos 5:18) stands in stark contrast with the statement of 2 Timothy 4:8 that the Lord will give “the crown of righteousness” to all who “have loved His appearing.” One scripture very clearly states God’s displeasure with anyone desiring “the day of the Lord,” and another scripture just as clearly states his pleasure with those who “have loved His appearing.” This, in and by itself, should show any serious student of the scriptures that these scriptures are speaking of two different events.

The first question in Malachi 3:2, “who can endure the day of His coming?” is radically different from the exhortation in 1 John 2:28, where we read, “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” One scripture clearly shows that no one “can endure the day of His coming,” while another scripture just as clearly shows that it is possible to “have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” Again, these scriptures cannot be speaking of the same future day.

The second question in Malachi 3:2, “who can stand when He appears?” is radically different from the exhortation in Luke 21:36 to “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” As we noticed before, one scripture clearly shows that no one “can stand when He appears,” while another tells us to “pray that you may be counted worthy... to stand before the Son of Man.” Are we to imagine that our God exhorted us to pray for something that could not happen? Or do we realize that these two scriptures refer to two different future times.

Again, we have noticed that Joel 2:2 says that “the day of the Lord” is “A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,” and Amos 5:20 says, “ Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” These stand in stark contrast to the exhortation in Titus 2:13 that we should be “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” One scripture very clearly teaches that the gloominess of “the day of the Lord” will be so great that there will be “no brightness in it.” While another scripture says his “glorious appearing” is our “blessed hope.” These scriptures cannot be describing the same event.

Matthew 24:29-30 describe both the darkness upon the Earth and the Glory appearence of Jesus coming in the clouds, all of that happening during the same Day....fulfilling your quoted prophecies about the day of darkness and gloominess and the coming of Jesus in Glory .What you are showing is only your selective bias. You have not done a sound interpretation of the Scriptures, but you have colored your interpretation to try to fit it into your bias to separate the prophesied Day of wrath and fierce anger Isaiah 13:9 from the Day of the Coming of Jesus after the tribulation.When Jesus said in Revelation 13 that the believers will be -overcome by taking the mark or beheaded if they refuse- and that if those days shall not be shortened there should no flesh be saved (Salvation): but for the ELECT SAKE those days shall be shortened Matthew 24:22 ,you can be sure that this is what will happen... The appearing of Jesus in Glory will be our blessed hope!

Matthew 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[tranquil]

OK. But this makes me curious. How do you see this as indicating a post trib rapture?

- It is a ridiculous concept to even say, 'pre- trib', post trib, pre-wrath because it is all about your point of view. There is tribulation within the seals. There is tribulation in the 6th Seal, there is tribulation in the Trumpets. So the gathering of the great multitude in the 7th Seal is pre- Trumpets tribulation, but post Seals Tribulation.

- You willfully make the assumption that 'gathered' means 'vacuumed to heaven'. "Meeting the Lord in the 'air' " is a spiritual event - unless you die, and even then it is a spiritual event.

- Like Luke 17:37, I view the Seals occurring then the Trumpets and Bowls of Wrath occur simultaneously. (the wrath of God is announced at the 6th Seal)

The woman of Hosea is the woman of Revelation 12.

Matt 24

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels

****[this word means "messengers" - in other words these are the 144,000 sealed of Revelation 14 in addition to the 4 supernatural angels of the same chapter ]**** http://biblehub.com/greek/32.htm​

with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
​

When Satan and the 10 horns (Revelation 17:9-14) burn the harlot (remember that the Hosea woman/ Revelation 12 woman has been very unfaithful), she is receiving the wrath of God. Upon receiving her punishment, she goes into the wilderness - this is where she is gathered. This process starts to happen at the very beginning of the tribulation - immediately after the tribulation of those days. "Those days" start when the woman is punished.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the messengers gather the elect." Not vacuumed to heaven.

After 1260 days, the 2 witnesses are told to 'come up here' (the sealed 144,000 are saved). The tribulation is over (after the 1st half of the 7 year covenant). Then comes the False Prophet for one last push in the middle of the 7 years. Which is the Great tribulation, which is radically shortened for the elects sake.

​

 

[pat34lee]

One thing I find funny about those who believe in the pre-trib
rapture is they believe two opposite notions. They must believe
in a separate church from Israel, yet they claim there is no Jew
or gentile, male or female in the body. They also claim promises
made only to Israel, not to gentiles.

The disconnect is repaired when you accept that Israel and the
church are the same being. Churches are buildings. THE church
is all believers.

 

[ScottA]

There is a bit more to things than most understand. Both Israel and the Church make up the body of Christ, but both are not the church.

From the first Adam (of the garden of Eden) to the last Adam (Jesus)...these are Israel proper, the sons of the flesh, whom died in and with Christ - they are "the dead in Christ." This is what Jesus referred to when He said, "It is finished."

The "Church" proper, are those whom are born (again) of the spirit of God - those built upon "the rock" identified by Jesus speaking with Peter, as those whom receive their place within the Church via the spirit of God Matthew 16:18. Having been born (again) of the spirit of God, these are not dead in spirit, but alive - those who are "alive at His coming" 1 Corinthians 15:23. The Church age, then, is the time spoken of by Joel the prophet, saying, “And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh" Joel 2:28 (meaning, after the death of the flesh in Christ "is finished").

So, then, Israel are the dead in Christ, the sons of the flesh and of the first Adam. And the Church, is made up of those born (again) of the spirit of God (the living) - making Christ both the First and the Last.

The timing of the "rapture" then...is "each one (of those who make up the Church) in his own order (meaning, in his own time) 1 Corinthians 15:23.

 

[pat34lee]

The Church age, then, is the time spoken of by Joel the prophet, saying, “And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh" Joel 2:28 (meaning, after the death of the flesh in Christ "is finished").

I don't see many people in the streets prophesying, or hear
about the dreams of old men. In those days is after the tribulation
and during the millennial reign, not now. That is also when the new
covenant begins. And both concern Israel and those connected to
her, not a separate entity, or church.

 

[Biblewriter]

One thing I find funny about those who believe in the pre-trib
rapture is they believe two opposite notions. They must believe
in a separate church from Israel, yet they claim there is no Jew
or gentile, male or female in the body. They also claim promises
made only to Israel, not to gentiles.

The disconnect is repaired when you accept that Israel and the
church are the same being. Churches are buildings. THE church
is all believers.

The "contradiction" between these two notions exists entirely in the minds of people who reject Dispensationalism in its entirety.

The "resolution" to this imaginary "contradiction" is that the church is the body of Christ. And in the church, Jew and Gentile are joined together into a singly body. But that is only in the church.

On the other hand, Israel is a body entirely different from the church.

When, or shortly before, (depending on who has correctly interpreted the scriptures) the Lord returns, the church will be taken out of this world, and God will again take up Israel, bringing all the physical descendants of that ancient nation back to the land, and then purging out all the rebels from among them. All the surviving Israelites will then trust in Jesus as their Lord, and He will reign in Jerusalem for a thousand years. This is not doctrine concocted from strained interpretations of scriptures, but is explicitly spelled out in plain words, in the very many scriptures that describe in intense detail what will take place at that time.

 

[Job8]

My ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of these words leads me to the conclusion that the rapture takes place before the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week.

Agreed. The Rapture in fact is imminent according to Scripture.

 

[Luke17:37]

OK. But this makes me curious. How do you see this as indicating a post trib rapture?

Hi Biblewriter.

Gaining a correct understanding of Luke 17:37 and surrounding context was the catalyst for my questioning the concept of pre-tribulation rapture. Then I went on a search through the Scriptures looking for proof of a pre-tribulation rapture, if it existed. I kept reading until I concluded that, not only was there no clear pre-tribulation rapture anywhere in the Bible, there can't be a pre-tribulation rapture.

For example, when I read Matthew 13, parable of the wheat and the tares, I see that the wicked are gathered to destruction first, before the righteous are gathered. I think that violates a pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and pre-wrath rapture.

And when I read 2 Thessalonians 2, I read that the coming of Christ and our gathering together to Him won't happen until after the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin who claims to be God and demands worship as God (the beast of the sea does this in the Tribulation, Revelation 13:5-8).

When I read 1 Thessalonians 4, I see the coming of Christ, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the gathering of the surviving elect. When I read Revelation 20, I see that the first resurrection includes the beheaded who are killed in the Tribulation for their witness and the Word of God, and because they don't take the mark of the beast. If the Tribulation martyrs are in the first resurrection, and there is by definition no resurrection before the first resurrection, then the first resurrection has to be post-Tribulation.

When I read Luke 18:1-8, or Matthew 24-25, or 2 Peter 3, I see that people will perceive Jesus's coming as late but that He will be right on time as far as He is concerned - giving everyone a chance to repent and believe, until who will believe have believed.

When I read about the thief in the night, I see that this pertains to the wicked. Per 1 Thessalonians 5, the Day won't come upon the righteous as a thief. Hebrews 10:24-25 tells us that we'll be able to see the Day approaching. In Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, Jesus gives us lots of signs. It's not going to be a surprise to people who are spiritually awake.

When I read John 17, I see that Jesus' plan for the disciples was not to take them out of the world, but that they should be protected from the (deceptions of the) evil one, and that the world would know that the Father sent Him.

Those are just a few reasons why I can't believe in a pre-tribulation (or mid-tribulation/pre-wrath) rapture.

 

[ewq1938]

Agreed. The Rapture in fact is imminent according to Scripture.

No, Paul directly spoke against such a theory as soon as he heard about it. He said there are certain things that must occur first and those things take place during the tribulation, as well as the second coming which comes just after the tribs end.

 

[Job8]

"Rapture" always referred to the nutty false doctrine that Christ would first come secretly before His second coming
to remove Christians so they would not go through the tribulation.

It is only nutty to the nuts. For those who are clear-headed, it is the Blessed Hope of the believer. The worst thing a person can do is pay attention to the propaganda being spouted against a *secret Rapture*. Why would it not be secret from the unbelieving and the ungodly? They will have their turn for UNIVERSAL MOURNING at the Second Coming of Christ.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30).

 

[Job8]

No, Paul directly spoke against such a theory as soon as he heard about it. He said there are certain things that must occur first and those things take place during the tribulation, as well as the second coming which comes just after the tribs end.

Actually 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 has been greatly misinterpreted and misunderstood. A proper exegesis of that chapter will show that those who were misleading Christians by claiming that the Day of the LORD had already come were forgetting that the Day of the LORD has nothing in common with the Rapture.

 

[Luke17:37]

- It is a ridiculous concept to even say, 'pre- trib', post trib, pre-wrath because it is all about your point of view. There is tribulation within the seals. There is tribulation in the 6th Seal, there is tribulation in the Trumpets. So the gathering of the great multitude in the 7th Seal is pre- Trumpets tribulation, but post Seals Tribulation.

- You willfully make the assumption that 'gathered' means 'vacuumed to heaven'. "Meeting the Lord in the 'air' " is a spiritual event - unless you die, and even then it is a spiritual event.

- Like Luke 17:37, I view the Seals occurring then the Trumpets and Bowls of Wrath occur simultaneously. (the wrath of God is announced at the 6th Seal)

The woman of Hosea is the woman of Revelation 12.

Matt 24

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels

****[this word means "messengers" - in other words these are the 144,000 sealed of Revelation 14 in addition to the 4 supernatural angels of the same chapter ]**** http://biblehub.com/greek/32.htm​

with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

When Satan and the 10 horns (Revelation 17:9-14) burn the harlot (remember that the Hosea woman/ Revelation 12 woman has been very unfaithful), she is receiving the wrath of God. Upon receiving her punishment, she goes into the wilderness - this is where she is gathered. This process starts to happen at the very beginning of the tribulation - immediately after the tribulation of those days. "Those days" start when the woman is punished.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the messengers gather the elect." Not vacuumed to heaven.

After 1260 days, the 2 witnesses are told to 'come up here' (the sealed 144,000 are saved). The tribulation is over (after the 1st half of the 7 year covenant). Then comes the False Prophet for one last push in the middle of the 7 years. Which is the Great tribulation, which is radically shortened for the elects sake.

​

I would call the entire seven years the Tribulation, although the last half is the hardest time. I believe the 144,000 sealed in Revelation stay on the earth (that's the point of the seal) and most likely survive the Tribulation, becoming among the elect who are gathered in the sky upon Jesus' return. I believe the False Prophet (beast of the earth) comes halfway through and that he is instrumental in slaughtering most of the Church.

 

[AlasBabylon]

It is only nutty to the nuts. For those who are clear-headed, it is the Blessed Hope of the believer. The worst thing a person can do is pay attention to the propaganda being spouted against a *secret Rapture*. Why would it not be secret from the unbelieving and the ungodly? They will have their turn for UNIVERSAL MOURNING at the Second Coming of Christ.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30).

I have my own theory about a "sign" that either precedes or accompanies Christ's second coming.
Many people think it is a sign of the cross. Sort of like St Constantine saw before his decisive battle,
"in this sign conquer." My theory is similar... it is an ancient sign used by the early Christians...
but not the cross as we know it. Just the sight of it would certainly shake the world big time.

.