Rapture timing

[Hazrus]

Biblewriter, you are obviously an extremely bible-literate person. Much more so than I. If I may, can I ask when you believe the "Rapture" will take place, and what verses you base your belief on? Maybe I have missed it above but I can't find it.

 

[Jipsah]

Any denial that the rapture will take place is a denial of explicitly stated scripture, and is therefore rank unbelief.

If you're talking about the glorious return of our Lord, say so. If not, then your "rapture" is a contrivance found nowhere in Scripture.

My ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of these words leads me to the conclusion that the rapture takes place before the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week.

Sacrifice and oblation ceased during the 70th week. That was a long time ago.

 

[Jipsah]

If I believe that we will be taken to the Lord on the Day of Judgement, is that a "rapture"? Here in Australia we don't use the term rapture much.

"Rapture" used for the idea that Christians will be airlifted out X years before our Lord's return, and thus doesn't refer to His actual homecoming. So whereas Christians have longed for the return of our Savior for a couple of thousand years, American Evangelicals have turned their gaze toward "The Rapture" instead.

 

[Hazrus]

Jipsah, I understand the USA "Left Behind" style rapture (read the books as a teenager!). I would like Mr. Biblewriter to clarify exactly what he means by "Rapture". Could he also be defining "Rapture" as what happens when Jesus returns and gathers believers to Himself?

Over to you, Mr. Biblewriter.

 

[Biblewriter]

Several have missed the definition of the term "rapture" that I posted early in this thread.

The rapture is a term for the event in which the Lord takes His people to Himself, to be with Him forever.

This is the event described in this scripture:

"the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

This scripture is what I was referring to when I said that anyone who denies the fact of the rapture is denying explicitly stated scripture. It is legitimate to debate the timing of this event. But any denial that it will take place is rank unbelief. For it is explicitly stated in the Bible.

 

[Biblewriter]

Some incorrectly imagine that it is a relatively new concept that all true Christians will be suddenly caught up a significant time before the Lord returns in power and glory to punish the wicked. But this is incorrect. It was clearly stated in the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to the present day. This is the last twelve chapters of the very famous five volume work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heresies," which is believed to have been written between 186 and 188 A.D.

In this work, Irenaeus said:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXIX, section 1)

An analysis of the rest of what Irenaeus said shows that he timed this event at after the Antichrist rose to power, but before his three and a half year reign.

I say this because in his account of this period, there was a distinct change in the nouns and pronouns Irenaeus used in speaking of the people who would experience the events he was discussing. Up to this point in his account, he always said things such as "the church" or "we." But after this point he always used words like "they," "them," or "those." This proves that he really meant what he appeared to have been saying in the statement I quoted, that "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." after the church is "suddenly caught up."

 

[greenguzzi]

But the timing of the rapture is a legitimate subject for discussion.

No it isn't. (see below.)

There is simply no scripture that explicitly states the timing of this event.

Yes there is:
Mark 13:32
But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

So stop wasting your time speculating on something that the Bible itself says is impossible to know. To do so is folly, a sign of rank unbelief.

Christ doesn't want His followers wasting their time with this nonsense. He wants us to follow true religion.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Biblewriter]

No it isn't. (see below.)

Yes there is:
Mark 13:32
But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

So stop wasting your time speculating on something that the Bible itself says is impossible to know. To do so is folly, a sign of rank unbelief.

Christ doesn't want His followers wasting their time with this nonsense. He wants us to follow true religion.

The "timing" I was speaking of, is not "the day or hour," but before, during, or after Daniel's seventieth week. Debate on this issue is most certainly not a matter of trying to set "the day or the hour."

As to date setting, I have personally condemned this practice in many other threads.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Biblewriter]

Prophecy should be simple.
Check what events Jesus Christ told come after the tribulation,
See how the 6th seal has even the part as to the stars
fall from heaven.

So the 5th seal is the great tribulation.

When is the rapture? - Jesus told that He comes after the
tribulation. The sky has rolled back and the face of the One
on the throne is seen with Jesus sitting on the right hand of
power. This is the time of the sign of the Son of man in heaven
that is an event after the tribulation. The time of trouble is over
against Israel and the church - as God hides His face when He
lets her enemy take her.

The 7th seal is not when the trumpets sound, but is when
that same set of angels shows up again -for the vials.
They are the used to be trumpets angels. the seven angels
Just as in Rev. 21 one of the former vials angels shows up
to talk to John. It is not then because a vial is about to be
poured out. Just that John is letting us know what type of
angel has come again to do something.

Actually, the timeline of end time events does not come from the Revelation, whose Greek title is Apocalypse, which means that it is presented in symbols which must be interpreted. The problem with all interpretations is that we can never be absolutely certain that we have interpreted correctly. Instead, the timeline comes from a vary large number of explicitly stated prophecies, given in plain words, found throughout the Bible, including many Old Testament books. When God has explicitly said something in plain words, our job is not to interpret it, but to believe it.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Kenny'sID]

Well seeing as you haven't defined "rapture" then I guess it's hard to disagree because the statement is meaningless. However if you mean the popular "left behind" notion, then no - it's not scriptural.
As you probably know "rapture" simply means "to be caught up".
As for when; we know from 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that it will be when the "Lord Himself [descends] from heaven".

But you can't say that...the OP has already set things up so that you will indeed be an unbeliever if you disagree, in hoping (in vain) to ward off the critics.

Anyway, just thought that a bit funny. On the Rapture, where do I get my ticket and what time is departure?
I'd much rather avoid the unpleasantness of sticking it out till the end too, but I don't think there is a flight scheduled for that.

 

[greenguzzi]

There is no reason to connect Daniel's prophecies with 1Thess.

The timing is really simple: Christ will one day return. When He does His people - alive and dead - will see Him coming, get "caught up", and rush ahead "in the air" to meet up with him. (Because that's what we do when we see a loved-one finally returning to us; we rush ahead to meet with them.)

In 1Thess4 is Paul assuring them that their loved ones - who have already passed - will be there with them when Christ returns.
It's that simple.
No need for complicated timelines; Christ returns, His people get to be there when He does. That's it!

 

[vinsight4u]

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[greenguzzi]

Revelation /should be made simple/easy to follow and clear
to the point. End-time prophecy should not be hard to under-
stand as to a general timeline and order of events.

True. Except The Book of Revelations has nothing to do with "End Time Prophecy".

 

[farout]

We have seen that comparing John 14:2-3 and 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 makes it clear that there is a delay between these two events, but does not indicate how long that delay will be. Other scriptures give an indication of how long this will be. The most significant of these is “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Revelation 3:10) The Greek word translated from in this passage is ek (word number 1537 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary.) Strong defines this word as follows: “A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote)” Thayer defines it as “out of, from, by, away from.” Other Greek references give similar definitions. In addition to the NKJV version of the Bible, which we are using, we find the same rendering of this Greek word in the KJV, the ASV, the CEV, the ESV, the HCSB, the NASB, the NLT, the NRSV, the RSV, and the TEV versions of the Bible and the ISVNT version of the New Testament. Some pretend that in this passage, ek actually means through, in, or during, but in the face of such strong evidence, such a claim is hard to defend.

In addition, we need to take into account what we were promised to be kept from. The promise was, “I... will keep you from the hour of trial.” There is a coming “hour of trial.” But these who “have kept” our Lord’s “command to persevere”will be kept “from,” that is, out of, that “hour.” We are not promised that we will be kept out of the trial, but out of the “hour,” that is, the time, in which this trial will take place.

This “hour of trial” “shall come upon the whole world.” the Greek word translated whole here is holos (word number 3650 in Strong’s Greek dictionary.) Strong defines this word as follows: “A primary word; ‘whole; or ‘all’, that is, complete (in extent, amount, time or degree), especially (neuter) as noun or adverb.” Thayer defines it simply as “all, whole, completely.” There can be no question that in this passage, this Greek word means the entire world, all of it, not just part of it. This “hour of trial”, that is, this time of testing, “shall come upon the whole world.” But the Lord’s own are promised to be kept out of it. This shows us that the delay between the Lord’s coming for his own and his coming with them is at least as long as this “hour of trial,” for if it “shall come upon the whole world” but we are kept out of it, our removal from the world has to before that “hour of trial.”

Again, in the order of events in Revelation 19, we see the marriage of the lamb in verses 7-8, “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.” Then, after that, we see the Lord going forth out of heaven as the mighty conqueror, followed by the armies of heaven in verses 11-16 “Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.” This sequence of events clearly shows the church, the bride of Christ, already in heaven before the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the world. But it does not just show that. It clearly shows the armies proceeding out of heaven with the Lord “clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” But it had just told us, only six verses earlier, that “the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.” This is conclusive proof that the saints will already be in heaven before the Lord comes to judge the world.

Now many produce various arguments to prove that this conclusion is incorrect. But essentially every argument they produce is one that fails to take into account the marked differences between the scriptures about our Lord’s coming in vengeance to judge the world and his coming in blessing to receive His own to Himself. Many insist that there is no such distinction. But as we have seen, there are numerous such distinctions, and that in some cases they are very extreme. There is no logical conclusion except that these distinctions indicate that the unfulfilled prophecies about the future coming of Christ follow the precedent established in the Old Testament scriptures of showing, even though not stating, that there would be more than one such future coming.

Dear Brother, your looking forward to the Lords return is very admirable, and I clearly understand how you think and feel, so compassionate! It is very sad that some people were taught the wrong way about Premillennialism, in particular that teaching about Pre tribulation or mid tribulation. Teaching that is not taught correctly is just as bad as scripture twisting. Remember James 3:1-2 warns us that not many should become teachers because they come under stricter judgment. Once I really did not pay too much attention to this, and I wish I had, as we mature so does our understanding of what FOLLOWING Jesus really is and more of how sin can destroy our testimony.

In one thread we both were in one person there was so deeply angry that he was sure he had been lied to about pre trib teaching, he rejected all verses that very easily could have been clearly understood as pre trib teaching. I honestly am so grateful for the more accurate translations of the Scriptures we have today. Today we have excellent translations that better use words that are almost completely opposite of their original meaning. The last major revision of the KJV was 1779, perhaps some do not believe that words meanings do change over nearly 3 centuries! The NASB and the ESV the HCSB are truly on the top of the list as far as I am concerned.

I mentioned to one person that how we relate to other Christians is how the world looks at us and is either drawn to our faith in Christ or rejects Christ. You present your points very well, God bless.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Biblewriter]

But you can't say that...the OP has already set things up so that you will indeed be an unbeliever if you disagree, in hoping (in vain) to ward off the critics.

Anyway, just thought that a bit funny. On the Rapture, where do I get my ticket and what time is departure?
I'd much rather avoid the unpleasantness of sticking it out till the end too, but I don't think there is a flight scheduled for that.

You are simply reacting emotionally, rather than actually considering what has been said in this thread. I most certainly neither said, or even implied, that it is simple unbelief to doubt that the rapture will take place before the great tribulation. I only said it was simply unbelief to deny that it will take place. And I did ndeed, very clearly, what I meant by the term "rapture."