Rapture timing

[BadHabit]

I'm going to kick this hornet's nest again.

As a person who is on the outside of this conversation (meaning I have no views on the end times to defend), I have to say that although there have been points brought up by quite a few people in defense of their own beliefs, when those statements are distilled down to their essence, it looks like a bunch of people telling each other to read their Bibles and accusing the others of not being able to read properly.

I have to kind of just shake my head in disbelief though that people put so much time and effort into trying to figure out what is going to happen tomorrow or a hundred years from now instead of concentrating on today. No judgment from me though - I have my own distractions that others might not find useful, so it's just a matter of opinion I suppose.

This conversation is interesting to follow along with even though I'm not learning a single thing from it.

 

[ewq1938]

Any denial that the rapture will take place is a denial of explicitly stated scripture, and is therefore rank unbelief.

But the timing of the rapture is a legitimate subject for discussion. For ALL positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of various scriptures. There is simply no scripture that explicitly states the timing of this event.

That's incorrect. Paul had heard some people thought the Lord could come at any moment, misunderstanding the coming as a thief in the night, so he specifically teaches in 2 thess against an any moment return which is also against a pre-trib rapture because he teaches the trib must come first before the return of Christ and then the rapture happens:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul!

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30

Paul teaching against a pre-second coming and pre-trib rapture:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!

Look at his words:

1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

That is the second coming!

2. and by our gathering together unto him

That is the rapture!

3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen right away instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospels.



2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.

So Paul has just said don't be worried that the second coming and rapture can happen before the tribulation and the Apostasy led by the Antichrist! IE: a pre-trib rapture is not true, right from the mouth of Paul himself.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


Now he has to remind them...but some will never let go of this "any moment" doctrine that Christ can return suddenly to "rapture the Church away".

 

[greenguzzi]

I have to kind of just shake my head in disbelief though that people put so much time and effort into trying to figure out what is going to happen tomorrow or a hundred years from now instead of concentrating on today.

Yep, I agree. Which is why I only dip into these conversations now and then.

I do sometimes hope I can convince others to become amillennialist though. It's so much simpler than all this timeline nonsense. Leaves much more time for real ministry.

I'm going to kick this hornet's nest again.

This conversation is interesting to follow along with even though I'm not learning a single thing from it.

If you want to learn something about eschatology this isn't the place for it. Just get some decent scholarly books on the subject and you'll soon settle on amillennialism, and then you'll be done.

 

[ewq1938]

From my point of view... the interesting thing is... until recently I never heard of the term "rapture" being used
for the resurrection of the dead and translation of the living that happens when Christ returns.

The rapture is neither of those events. The resurrection happens first, then the living are changed/translated then the living who were changed are raptured which means to lift up into the air. That's three different events which happen almost at the same time but never should we confuse them.

 

[greenguzzi]

...raptured which means to lift up into the air.

No, that's not what "rapture" means. Look it up.

 

[ScottA]

Any denial that the rapture will take place is a denial of explicitly stated scripture, and is therefore rank unbelief.

But the timing of the rapture is a legitimate subject for discussion. For ALL positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of various scriptures. There is simply no scripture that explicitly states the timing of this event.

And MOST differences of opinion on this subject have their roots, not in the scriptures under consideration, but in ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of the words these scriptures use to describe associated topics.

My ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of these words leads me to the conclusion that the rapture takes place before the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week.

Other people make different ASSUMPTIONS about the meaning of these same words. And these ASSUMPTIONS lead them to the conclusion that the rapture takes place at the time the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the wicked.

From another thread:


The error here is an unfounded conclusion that the Lord is only returning one time. There is no scripture anywhere that says this. This conclusion is unfounded because it is based on rank ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of various words used to describe our Lord's return.

15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

[Born Again2004]

It will happen when God says it will!

 

[Luke17:37]

I'm going to kick this hornet's nest again.

As a person who is on the outside of this conversation (meaning I have no views on the end times to defend), I have to say that although there have been points brought up by quite a few people in defense of their own beliefs, when those statements are distilled down to their essence, it looks like a bunch of people telling each other to read their Bibles and accusing the others of not being able to read properly.

I have to kind of just shake my head in disbelief though that people put so much time and effort into trying to figure out what is going to happen tomorrow or a hundred years from now instead of concentrating on today. No judgment from me though - I have my own distractions that others might not find useful, so it's just a matter of opinion I suppose.

This conversation is interesting to follow along with even though I'm not learning a single thing from it.

Hey there.

Why do you think the conversation is interesting to you? You have a end times view, too. It might be, "Don't know; don't care," but that's a view.

Have you studied end times? If not, do you want to? Or is this just entertainment? If you are interested but don't know where to start, I suggest, at minimum, Matthew 13, 24, 25; Mark 13; Luke 17, 18, 21; 1 Corinthians 15; 1 Thessalonians 4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2; 2 Peter 3; and Revelation.

I write lots of posts in general. I haven't written as many in this thread. Feel free to check them out (my earlier posts) if you want to get an idea what I believe (post-tribulation resurrection gathering). If you have any specific questions, let me know.

 

[ewq1938]

No, that's not what "rapture" means. Look it up.

That is what rapture means:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G138
Citing in TDNT: 1:472, 80


3 is the definition Paul is using it as. Same as here:

2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Those who are going in the rapture already have the power of God working in their life to prepare them for that day. Those who are not going are easy to identify because they do not believe in the rapture and they can tell you that they are not going to go in the rapture. All of this is designed to show who is a part of us and who does not belong. So this is all really pretty convent that we can know who is who. "According to your faith be it unto you."

1John2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Josh, just wanted to try to point something out to you that I feel is important because a lot of people have the same mindset.

Let's take the verse you quoted as a for instance, can you see how you tried to make it say what you wanted it to say, when it didn't say that at all? As Luke mentioned right here....

1 John 2:19 is talking about people who fall away or denounce their faith in God. It has nothing to do with a pre/mid-Tribulation or pre-wrath rapture.

....the verse simply doesn't fit here nor was it intended to. IOW, by taking what's real (it's real meaning) and turning it into something that isn't real, you are able to substantiate something else that isn't real. Or, that's the type of thing you have to do to make the unreal real in your mind and this is something that actually did happen just now, evidence you can see with your own eyes if you want to.. I go into detail here just in case you or others want to see these facts in action, and maybe, God willing, question how we draw our conclusions and the reasons why we draw them. It's not just you, nor is this the only popular area where people tend to do that. As to why? Seems to me it's just the easiest thing to accept so we let ourselves be taught that but it's just not reality.

Reality, as it is in life, is sometimes not the easiest way and face it, there are distinctively different types of people out there, those that choose to pretend other realities into existence because it's easier to accept, and those who choose to face up to actual reality. The latter there somehow just makes me feel more in control, confident, and with peace of mind, and I have tried both. The benefit of reality far overrides the false comfort from choosing not to face things because deep down inside that keeps me disturbed because I know it isn't real. Reality also keeps us ready for what's real so we aren't caught with our pants down.

Briefly, the tendency to slip from reality is in actuality a God given natural defense, but it's only for extreme cases when we cannot accept something traumatic, so it's easy to see how people tend in that direction even when it isn't necessary. In normal life there are things we don't like but not so extreme we aren't expected by God to handle them.

So necessary? preachy? or or not, I've just seen so many people slip into their own realities, and especially because of some of the mass slippage by Christians in different areas, that I thought I should mention it.

 

[pat34lee]

http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2...terpretation-or-simply-not-there-2456968.html

 

[dougangel]

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather....................
At the 2nd coming of Christ (not the 3rd coming) after the elect go through a great time of distress. vs 27 states it will be visible to everybody (paraphrasing)
....................30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
From the clouds Jesus will gather his elect at the second coming at the end of the age.
There are not 2 raptures and 2 comings of Christ.
There is not a silent rapture or a secret coming of Christ.

 

[Biblewriter]

Not just those. I wouldn't even say they were the usual positions globally. There is also "no-trib". Not everyone is a pre-millennialist. I believe that scripture points to amillennialism.

If you are "no-trib because you are amillennial, then you do not even believe in a rapture at all.

 

[Biblewriter]

In a general answer to the several individuals here that have disparaged the study of prophecy, I will simply point out that prophecy occupies a full third of everything God has told us in the Bible. So claiming that studying it is a waste of time is claiming that a full third of everything God has told us is simply not important.

 

[Kenny'sID]

In a general answer to the several individuals here that have disparaged the study of prophecy, I will simply point out that prophecy occupies a full third of everything God has told us in the Bible. So claiming that studying it is a waste of time is claiming that a full third of everything God has told us is simply not important.

Who disparaged the study of prophecy?

If that happened, fine, but if you can't or will not answer, or it turns out not to be true, I'm going to take the comment as another one of those like I was speaking to Josh about. Meaning you are bending reality around by claiming things that aren't true, in order to make it easier for you to accept you're own created reality.

 

[Hazrus]

Biblewriter, Amillennialists love prophecy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Think about all the promises God has made. Not one has failed. What a great promise we have in the New Creation; now THAT is what a lot of Amillennialists look forward to.

 

[Hazrus]

Who disparaged the study of prophecy?

If that happened, fine, but if you can't or will not answer, or it turns out not to be true, I'm going to take the comment as another one of those like I was speaking to Josh about. Meaning you are bending reality around by claiming things that aren't true, in order to make it easier for you to accept you're own created reality.

I've disagreed (in a good way I hope!) with you before Kenny, however I think this is spot on.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I've disagreed (in a good way I hope!) with you before Kenny, however I think this is spot on.

Thanks Haz. Just hope Biblewriter takes it well and not too personally.

We do fine. I can handle disagreement from someone like yourself quite well, and that is due mostly to your good and patient attitude, not mine.

 

[Biblewriter]

Who disparaged the study of prophecy?

If that happened, fine, but if you can't or will not answer, or it turns out not to be true, I'm going to take the comment as another one of those like I was speaking to Josh about. Meaning you are bending reality around by claiming things that aren't true, in order to make it easier for you to accept you're own created reality.

I was pressed for time when I posted an answer to those who were disparaging the study of prophecy, so I did not go back and locate the posts I was referring, so I could quote them, but here they are:

I'm going to kick this hornet's nest again.

As a person who is on the outside of this conversation (meaning I have no views on the end times to defend), I have to say that although there have been points brought up by quite a few people in defense of their own beliefs, when those statements are distilled down to their essence, it looks like a bunch of people telling each other to read their Bibles and accusing the others of not being able to read properly.

I have to kind of just shake my head in disbelief though that people put so much time and effort into trying to figure out what is going to happen tomorrow or a hundred years from now instead of concentrating on today. No judgment from me though - I have my own distractions that others might not find useful, so it's just a matter of opinion I suppose.

This conversation is interesting to follow along with even though I'm not learning a single thing from it.

Yep, I agree. Which is why I only dip into these conversations now and then.

I do sometimes hope I can convince others to become amillennialist though. It's so much simpler than all this timeline nonsense. Leaves much more time for real ministry.



If you want to learn something about eschatology this isn't the place for it. Just get some decent scholarly books on the subject and you'll soon settle on amillennialism, and then you'll be done.

I am fully aware that most scholars say that prophecy is a fourth of the Bible. But in saying this, they neglect the book of Psalms, which our Lord Jesus himself clearly identified as prophetic. And when the Psalms are counted as prophetic, the prophetic books of the Bible are:

Psalms
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi
Revelation

These, along with the prophetic parts of the gospels and the epistles of Paul, bulk a full third of the Bible. And as The Revelation itself calls itself prophecy, there is zero merit in the claim that it is not prophecy because it is apocalyptic.

So it is indeed correct that anyone who claims that the study of prophecy is a waste of time is claiming that a full third of everything God has said to us has no value, at least to us.

This is contrary to passages such as 2 Peter 1:19:

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:"

 

[Biblewriter]

I am a thorough and committed believer in the pre-tribulation rapture. I believe that the scriptures support this conclusion. And I also believe that a thorough knowledge of the overall scope of end time prophecy makes this view not only possible, but necessary.

But I have no problem with those that do not accept this view. Neither their salvation nor their godliness is dependent on understanding the details of scriptural truth. And there are indeed very few that have deeply studied the full range of Bible prophecy.

The only ones with whom I have a problem are those who claim that this view is evil, and particularly those that make the false claim that this view originated with a demonically inspired vision in the 1800's. I have personally traced this view throughout history, and have found it in the writings of both early and late ancient times, in early and mid medieval times, in the time of the enlightenment, and in the time of the industrial revolution, as well as in the 1700s and in the early 1800s (before 1829, the year the alleged vision was first published.) And as a side note, I am not referring to articles I have read which claim that these statements exist. I am referring to statements I have personally read from historic documents, many of which have been posted online.