Rapture Before Wrath

[TPeterY]

Still waiting for it...

Grasshopper!

How can you say that there is two more coming of Jesus yet to come ?
One coming of Jesus who will be visible only to those waiting in faith -to be rapture pre-tribulation-....and another coming of Jesus visible by everyone on Earth after the tribulation?
Hebrew 9:28 clearly say that there is only ONE more coming of Jesus yet to come not two.

Riberra,

First, I want you to know, I'm not debating with you on this one. I written out all this information hopefully you can understand what the correct picture looks like because not all passages of Christ's coming looks the same as you will find out below. (Matthew 16:27, 25:31, 1 Thess 3:13). So I hope you appreciate what I just did for you. You might have to put on your thinking cap as well to figure out all this information.

*Now imagine this, you're in New York and I'm in Los Angeles.

~ You leave NY, traveling west bound and end up in Philadelphia.

~ You leave NY again traveling west bound and end up in Cleveland.

~ You leave NY again traveling west bound. This time you finally reached Los Angeles.

1) How many times did you leave NY? 3 times!

2) How many times did you come Los Anegles? Once!

This is important to know because there are passage that describes different types of comings Christ makes before His comes to earth.

___________________________________________​

Now imagine this, Christ is in heaven and the church is on earth. Look at the different types of coming described by each scriptures below.

~ Christ leaves heaven and descend to the 2nd heaven to greet the Church.

This coming is for the Rapture of the Church. He never comes to earth.

The first time He leaves heaven, He is accompany by His angels to greet the Church in the rapture.

Matthew 16:27 (NKJV)
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

From here, He returns back to heaven with the church.

John 14:2-3 (NKJV)
2) In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Notice He comes with reward and in the glory of His Father. God appointed the Son to judge during the tribulation. The Son will come in power and great glory, not The Father.

Notice also the passage say He comes with His angels? Whenever that's mention, He never comes to earth. He only comes to earth when he comes with his saints.

It's because the angels are not assign to be on earth with Him as He returns to reign, only the saints.

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~ Christ leaves heaven again and descend to the 1st heaven to judge the earth. (Luke 21:25-28).

This coming is where He comes in power and great glory to punish all unbelieving sinners on earth. This happens in the second of the tribulation. There are "tons" of scriptures throughout the old and new testament about God's judgment and wrath upon the world. This is it. Christ is He who will administer them in the tribulation.

John 5:22-27 (NKJV)
22) For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23) that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24) “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25) Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26) For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27) and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.


Matthew 25:31 (NKJV)
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

Notice it say in His glory, nothing about the Father's? Christ judges the earth. And He comes with His angels and never comes to earth.

Right before He comes in power and great glory, is Isaiah 26:20. (just throwing in a little trivia).

Isaiah 26:20 (NKJV)
Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

If anyone can understand this part, they will also have figured out when is the destruction of Mystery Babylon in Rev 18, all of Rev 19 "AND" the timing of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

At the end of this point, Christ never ascends back up to heaven. Here is where Mathew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 begins.

Note: Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 are about to begin here but they are not the same as Luke 21: 25-28.

Luke's version is a little earlier time-wise in the tribulation. This is why Luke never wrote about the gathering of Christ's elects at the end as Mathew 24:31 and Mark 13:27. It's also why Luke never mentions "immediately after the tribulation" in his Discourse.

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~ Christ finally comes to earth, and His saints with Him. He never goes back up to the 3rd heaven. Now we are at Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. While He's still in the 1st heaven, this is where He sends His angels to the four corners of earth and heaven to gather His elects to be with Him.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 (NKJV)
so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Summary: Three different descriptions of His comings (Matt 16:27, 25:31 and 1 Thess 3:13) but He comes to earth once in 1 Thess 3:13.

Notice in each of those verses, they say He comes but He only comes to earth once. So when you see the bible say come, it doesn't mean He'll be on earth in THE actual second coming.

When He comes with His angels, He never comes to earth. When he comes with his saints, He comes to earth.


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[Bible2]

TPeterY said in post 562:

This coming is for the Rapture of the Church. He never comes to earth.

Note that nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4 says or requires that Jesus won't at that same coming subsequently descend to the earth on a white horse, as in Revelation 19. And there is no explicit descent to the earth, or a white horse, in Matthew 24:30 either, but it is still the same 2nd coming as Revelation 19:7-21. And even in Revelation 19:7-21, there is no explicit descent to the earth, even though it is the same 2nd coming as Zechariah 14:3-5, which has no explicit white horse.

TPeterY said in post 562:

From here, He returns back to heaven with the church.

John 14:2-3 (NKJV)
2) In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Note that there is no pre-tribulation idea in John 14:3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation rapture view can't claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons that Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

 

[TPeterY]

Note that nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4 says or requires that Jesus won't at that same coming subsequently descend to the earth on a white horse, as in Revelation 19. And there is no explicit descent to the earth, or a white horse, in Matthew 24:30 either, but it is still the same 2nd coming as Revelation 19:7-21. And even in Revelation 19:7-21, there is no explicit descent to the earth, even though it is the same 2nd coming as Zechariah 14:3-5, which has no explicit white horse.

Do you see 1 Thess 4 written anywhere in post #562?

Copy and paste didn't work this time.

Note that there is no pre-tribulation idea in John 14:3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation rapture view can't claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons that Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

Not convincing enough to refute John 14:2-3. Nowhere in John 14:2-3 say we come back to earth.

It means what it said, we go to where He is after He receive us unto Him.

John 14:2-3 (NKJV)
2) In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.



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[iamlamad]

Then you should have no difficulty to find a verse where Jesus say that he will come again and again..... because without it ,the only thing you have so far are assumptions.

By two more times you mean two more coming of Jesus yet to come.Your theory fails because Jesus say that he will come only one more time. That is why the next return of Jesus is called Jesus' Second Coming (Advent)


That is the Second Coming (Advent)...Jesus First Coming was about 2,000 thousand years ago....For your pre-tribulation rapture theory to work you need to add a third coming of Jesus ....who is not written in the scriptures .Thus you are preaching another Gospel.

Just as the Jews missed TWO comings written in the Old Testament, you are missing TWO [more] comings written in the NEW. OF COURSE it is written in the scriptures, but Paul is the ONLY author of it. Always remember, preconceived glasses are can only be blamed on the wearer. One day soon the Bride of Christ will be departed and "taken out of the way.l"

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Revelation 16 is about the 7 VIALS of the WRATH of God being poured out.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+16&version=KJV

At revelation 16:12-16 the 6 th VIAL is poured out starting the gathering of the world armies for the battle of Armageddon

Revelation 16:15 Jesus come as a thief....
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

....the end is near

In Revelation 16:17 the 7 th Vial is poured out...
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

In Rev 19 Jesus wins the battle of Armageddon and start His Millennium Kingdom with His Saints as rulers with Him (Rev 20:6)
Rev 19:15-21
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What is REALLY near is Jesus coming FOR His Bride. No trumpet has been sounded, no vial has been poured out. BEfore any of these can happen, something has to happen FIRST. Did you forget about a departing that must come FIRST - the bride of Christ will be "taken out of the way" FIRST.

LAMAD

LAMAD

 

[TPeterY]

It says the "generation of Jesus Christ, son of … " LOL!

Depending on the translation you use, it also says,
~ genealogy of Jesus Christ
~ ancestors of Jesus Christ
~ historical record of Jesus Christ
~ the family history of Jesus Christ
~ The family tree of Jesus Christ

Matthew 1:1 A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the - Online Bible Study Tools

And guess what, have you read the following verse beyond verse one to see what else it says?

Matthew 1:1-5 (KJV)
1) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
2) Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
3) And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
4) And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
5) And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;

So much for trying to prove the word generation means all prophecies happened at 70 AD.

Love your logic thinking David and Abraham also live during the time of Christ based on the word generation. LOL!!!


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That is really funny, coming from a futurist. How about this:

-- Matt 10:1-40

Is that enough context? All of those instructions were to His disciples for their mission to gather the lost sheep. Your claim of a "verse 16 split" has no biblical foundation (NONE!) I surmise someone manufactured that "split" (e.g., added their own words to the scripture, such as in the NKJV) because the passage, as written and in context, contradicts their futurist agenda. I have heard all this misinterpretation before, and it sounds just as silly now as I did the first time I heard it.

Unless you understand the translation you're reading, anyone without knowledge of what they're reading can commingle verses from different parts of the chapter and say the first verse in the chapter is the same subject as the last verse in the same chapter.

Other translations breaks down Matthew 10 into 7 subjects.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2010&version=KJV;NKJV

By your logic, does that also mean all 7 vials in Rev 16 are the same because there's nothing separating the verses to help readers know when there's a change in subject? LOL!!!

Nothing wrong with the KJV, but if you can't understand the translation you're reading, why use it?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+16&version=KJV;NKJV


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Two witnesses? Why do you have to add your words to the Holy Scripture? What is your purpose? There is not a whisper about the identity of the two witnesses anywhere in the Holy Scripture?

Your notion that Christ came in his kingdom at the transfiguration is another gross misinterpretation, again manufactured by adding words to the scripture. These are those consecutive passages from Young's Literal Translation:

"`For, the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of his Father, with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work. Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'" -- Matt 16:27-28 YLT​

"And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, and James, and John his brother, and doth bring them up to a high mount by themselves, and he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his garments did become white as the light, and lo, appear to them did Moses and Elijah, talking together with him." -- Matt 17:1-3 YLT​

Think about it: you are claiming that Christ came in his kingdom, to reign, during the transfiguration. That is one of the best examples of the extreme measures futurists must take to make their agenda fit the Holy Scriptures.

Why not simply read them as if they are normal English? That was the purpose of the translation. That is what the English versions of the New Testament are: the Word of God--the Gospel--the New Covenant-- translated into the English Language from the Greek.

You haven't been very honest. All the translations in the link below uses the word Kingdom, not Reign. The only one translation that used the word reign is the YLT. And that's the translation you quoted trying to mislead readers into thinking Christ is currently reigning on earth.

Matthew 16:28 KJV
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing - Online Bible Study Tools


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I don't believe I mentioned Rev 6:16; but you certainly don't know what Revelation 6:16 means, nor does anyone else. That explains why there are a zillion, brightly illustrated books on the Revelation, cluttering the shelves of "Christian" book stores everywhere, each book claiming it contains the key to the interpretation of the Revelation. Vivid imaginations are BIG Business, but they are not scripture.

One thing we do know: Luke 23:28-30 was fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem, and the children of those women bore the brunt of the wrath of the Lamb of God. That is history.

That was during the crucifixion. It's history, not prophecy. Nothing about that incident proves prophecies was fulfilled during that time. Why the need to bring up this subject?


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Your post proved nothing, except you have an agenda. Jesus spent most of his ministry warning Jerusalem about its pending doom, beginning with John the Baptist:

"But when [John] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" -- Matt 3:7​

The post proved everything. And here it is again.

~From Matthew 23:1-36, Jesus condemns the religious leaders of His generation with 8 woes and told them they will die and go to hell for their sins.

~From Matthew 23:37-39, He wept and revealed His passion to someday gather His flock when he returns.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2023&version=NKJV;NLT;CEV;ERV

Now read this from Matthew 23:36 to Matthew 24:2.

Jesus said all the condemnation He mentioned from Matthew 23:1-36 will come upon this generation. And how long is a generation? 70 years. (Psalms 90:10).

Now when was the temple and Jerusalem destroyed? 70 AD just as Jesus predicted a generation - 70 years.

His generation He spoke of living in His time is the one in Matthew 23:36.

The generation mentioned in Matthew 24:34 is the 70 years of Israel today starting from the time it became a nation again.

Matthew 23:36-24:2 (KJV)
36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2) And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Post #519 http://www.christianforums.com/t7835469-52/

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I will trust what you write when you quit adding words to the scripture.

Well that's because when I copy and paste an actual scripture the way it's written in the bible, you don't understand, thus forces me to elaborate what it means.

Would you be able to understand this?

Mark 9:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
1) And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2) And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3) And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4) And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.


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I hope you realize that there is not a single verse in the New Testament that states that Christ will ever walk on the earth again.

LOL!!! Are you sure about that?

Revelation 14:1 (NKJV)
Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.




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[BABerean2]

There is one word in the famous rapture passage that is avoided by pretrib promoters.

It is the word "descend'.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


G2597
καταβαίνω
katabainō
kat-ab-ah'ee-no
From G2596 and the base of G939; to descend (literally or figuratively): - come (get, go, step) down, descend, fall (down).


They claim he does not come down to the earth.


They then claim Christ takes the Church back to heaven for a period of seven years.


However, there is nothing in the text of 1st Thess. chapters four or five that indicate these claims are the truth.


Pretrib promoters must jump to verses in the books of John or Daniel to make their doctrine work. They then claim they use the most "literal" reading of scripture.


Before Darby brought his doctrine to America, it was understood that Christ would come down to the clouds and gather his Church and then come down to the Mount of Olives at his Second Coming. This matches up with the description of his Second Coming in Matthew chapter 24.


The Greek word for "coming" is parousia.

G3952
παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.


In ancient times a watchman on the wall would blow the trumpet when he saw the king returning to the city. Often times people would rush out to meet the king and accompany him back to the city. The Greek word used to describe this event is "parousia".


This describes perfectly the rapture/resurrection/Second Coming of God's Word, when taken in context.

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[shturt678s]

There is one word in the famous rapture passage that is avoided by pretrib promoters.

It is the word "descend'.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


G2597
καταβαίνω
katabainō
kat-ab-ah'ee-no
From G2596 and the base of G939; to descend (literally or figuratively): - come (get, go, step) down, descend, fall (down).


They claim he does not come down to the earth.


They then claim Christ takes the Church back to heaven for a period of seven years.


However, there is nothing in the text of 1st Thess. chapters four or five that indicate these claims are the truth.


Pretrib promoters must jump to verses in the books of John or Daniel to make their doctrine work. They then claim they use the most "literal" reading of scripture.


Before Darby brought his doctrine to America, it was understood that Christ would come down to the clouds and gather his Church and then come down to the Mount of Olives at his Second Coming. This matches up with the description of his Second Coming in Matthew chapter 24.

The Greek word for "coming" is parousia.

No refute intended.

G3952
παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.

Only nit picking, ie, Parousia = the latter "presence" in the narrow contextual sense....not "coming."

In ancient times a watchman on the wall would blow the trumpet when he saw the king returning to the city. Often times people would rush out to meet the king and accompany him back to the city. The Greek word used to describe this event is "parousia".


This describes perfectly the rapture/resurrection/Second Coming of God's Word, when taken in context.

.

Perfect!

Only old Jack's opinion from the least of the pecking order,

 

[BABerean2]

Jack,

You can nit pick or correct me anytime. I know it is, the truth in love.

 

[Riberra]

Double post. See below.

 

[Riberra]

Originally Posted by Riberra

Revelation 16 is about the 7 VIALS of the WRATH of God being poured out.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...16&version=KJV

At revelation 16:12-16 the 6 th VIAL is poured out starting the gathering of the world armies for the battle of Armageddon

Revelation 16:15 Jesus come as a thief....
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

....the end is near

In Revelation 16:17 the 7 th Vial is poured out...
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

In Rev 19 Jesus wins the battle of Armageddon and start His Millennium Kingdom with His Saints as rulers with Him (Rev 20:6)
Rev 19:15-21
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
​

What is REALLY near is Jesus coming FOR His Bride.
No trumpet has been sounded, no vial has been poured out.

My reply was in the context of your saying that Jesus will come 2 times as a thief.I am not saying that any vials have actually been poured out.I just pointed out that Jesus say -i come as a thief-in Revelation 16:15 when the 6 th vial will be poured out... so when that will happen the end will be near....contrary to your claim that Jesus will come as a thief before the tribulation to rapture his Bride (The Church)

BEfore any of these can happen, something has to happen FIRST. Did you forget about a departing that must come FIRST - the bride of Christ will be "taken out of the way" FIRST.

Departing in the context refers to a departure from faith -the Apostasy-The King James Bible refer it as a -falling away- who must come first.
I remember discussions about who the restrainer is.I think that the restrainer is God Himself.Only when God decide that the time is come then the Great Tribulation will start suddenly.The Church (bride of Christ) is not the restrainer.

 

[Rev20]

Depending on the translation you use, it also says,
~ genealogy of Jesus Christ
~ ancestors of Jesus Christ
~ historical record of Jesus Christ
~ the family history of Jesus Christ
~ The family tree of Jesus Christ

Matthew 1:1 A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the - Online Bible Study Tools

I understand that the flood of translations in the past century has muddied the waters. Therefore, I rely primarily on Strong's for my understanding on that word:

(1078) genesis; from the same as Greek (1074) (genea); nativity; figurative nature: — generation, nature (-ral).

But, in all fairness, Young's translates it to "birth," so I concede that point, but not my original point.

My original point was, and is, that the words "this generation" in the gospels always means the generation of Jesus Christ and his disciples.

I will be certain not to use the Matt 1:1 example again when trying to reason with a futurist.
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And guess what, have you read the following verse beyond verse one to see what else it says?

Matthew 1:1-5 (KJV)

So much for trying to prove the word generation means all prophecies happened at 70 AD.

Love your logic thinking David and Abraham also live during the time of Christ based on the word generation. LOL!!!

Don't be silly! You know I never so much as hinted at that interpretation. Why do you keep insisting that I did? You are not illiterate, are you?
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Unless you understand the translation you're reading, anyone without knowledge of what they're reading can commingle verses from different parts of the chapter and say the first verse in the chapter is the same subject as the last verse in the same chapter.

Other translations breaks down Matthew 10 into 7 subjects.

I try not to add words to the scripture. I see it doesn't seem to matter to you. I guess we will have to disagree on that one.
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Nothing wrong with the KJV, but if you can't understand the translation you're reading, why use it?

I agree.
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You haven't been very honest.

I was thinking the same thing about you; but I was trying to be polite.
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All the translations in the link below uses the word Kingdom, not Reign. The only one translation that used the word reign is the YLT. And that's the translation you quoted trying to mislead readers into thinking Christ is currently reigning on earth.

Matthew 16:28 KJV
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

[url=http://www.biblestudytools.com/matthew/16-28-compare.html]Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing - Online Bible Study Tools

Why would Christ be "coming in his kingdom," except to reign? Young's provides an honest translation of that verse. This is Strongs' for "kingdom":

(932) basileia, bas-il-i’-ah; from (935) (basileu>v); properly royalty, i.e. (abstract) rule, or (concrete) a realm (literal or figurative): — kingdom, + reign.

For your information, I have no problem whatsoever with the word "kingdom", nor with the phrase "coming in His kingdom." I do have a problem with the pretense that it has anything to do with the transfiguration.
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Matthew 16:28 KJV
That was during the crucifixion. It's history, not prophecy. Nothing about that incident proves prophecies was fulfilled during that time. Why the need to bring up this subject?

I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you be more specific?
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Matthew 16:28 KJV
The post proved everything. And here it is again.

~From Matthew 23:1-36, Jesus condemns the religious leaders of His generation with 8 woes and told them they will die and go to hell for their sins.

~From Matthew 23:37-39, He wept and revealed His passion to someday gather His flock when he returns.

Did you even bother to read your own reference? And where does it say that Jesus will return in the future to gather his flock? You will not find it in either of those passages.

When Jesus returns, it will be to judge the quick and the dead, of all peoples, and of all nations.
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Now read this from Matthew 23:36 to Matthew 24:2.

Jesus said all the condemnation He mentioned from Matthew 23:1-36 will come upon this generation. And how long is a generation? 70 years. (Psalms 90:10).
Now when was the temple and Jerusalem destroyed? 70 AD just as Jesus predicted a generation - 70 years.

His generation He spoke of living in His time is the one in Matthew 23:36.

The generation mentioned in Matthew 24:34 is the 70 years of Israel today starting from the time it became a nation again.

Let me try to put this matter to rest. The word generation, as used in the Gospel, in only mentioned in the context (or framework) of Jesus and his disciples. That is, when Jesus speaks of "this generation", he is referring to his generation. Therefore, when Jesus said, "the blood of all the prophets shall be required of this generation," he was speaking to those of his generation. And that is exactly what happened. About 40 years later, vengeance was extracted on that generation, which was his generation.

I am at a loss why so many futurists have a difficult time understanding such a simple concept.
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Well that's because when I copy and paste an actual scripture the way it's written in the bible, you don't understand, thus forces me to elaborate what it means.

Would you be able to understand this?

Mark 9:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
1) And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2) And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3) And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4) And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Are you referring to the ridiculous interpretation that the transfiguration was what Jesus meant when he said he would be coming in his kingdom? If so, they who died in those six days? Jesus said only some would not taste of death, so who died?

Futurism . . . LOL!

If you were referring to the equally ridiculous notion that Moses and Elias are the two witnesses, then where does it say that Elias and Moses are the two witnesses? I missed that part, and I have been reading the King James Version of the New Testament for over 50 years, and the Old Testament for nearly as long as the New. I have also read many other versions over the years. One would think I would have stumbled across it at least once.

Admit it. You made up the part about Elias and Moses being the two witnesses.
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LOL!!! Are you sure about that?

Revelation 14:1 (NKJV)
Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.

LOL! I am absolutely, positively, certain that there is not a single verse in the New Testament that states Christ will ever physically walk on the earth again.

Regarding Rev 14:1, you do know that mount Sion is the heavenly home of the city of God, New Jerusalem, don't you? Let me explain, beginning with Isaiah:

"Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste." -- Isa 28:16​

Peter stated that was fulfilled (so did Christ):

"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded." -- 1Pet 2:6​

So, the corner stone has been laid in Sion. And where is Sion? Where is the corner stone?

The corner stone is part of the foundation of the Holy Temple, of which we as Christians are also a part of:

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." -- Eph 2:19-22​

So, the Holy Temple is on mount Sion. And where is mount Sion?

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." -- Heb 12:22-24​

So, on mount Sion we find the Holy Temple and the City of God, populated by, among other spirits: the Saints, the Apostles, the Prophets, and Jesus Christ.


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[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 565:

Just as the Jews missed TWO comings written in the Old Testament, you are missing TWO [more] comings written in the NEW.

There was a contrast between the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's coming, with some of them showing him coming to be meekly crucified for our sins (Isaiah 53, Psalms 22), and others showing him literally descending from heaven to wage war and to physically reign on the earth (Zechariah 14, Micah 4:1-4). But nothing in the Old or New Testament requires a future (to us), pre-tribulation coming of Christ versus only a post-tribulation coming of Christ. For all the as-yet-unfulfilled Old and New Testament prophecies regarding Christ's coming will be fulfilled at or sometime after his post-tribulation coming.

iamlamad said in post 565:

Paul is the ONLY author of it.

Are you thinking of 1 Corinthians 15:51? If so, note that Paul didn't call the rapture itself a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51, for Jesus had already taught the rapture in the Gospels (John 14:3b, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1). Instead, the mystery shown in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (cf. John 11:26) was the instantaneous changing of living believers into immortal physical bodies at the time that dead believers will be resurrected into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). It is only after this occurs that the rapture (the catching up together/gathering together) of all believers will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3b).

iamlamad said in post 565:

One day soon the Bride of Christ will be departed and "taken out of the way.l"

Regarding "the Bride of Christ will be departed", are you thinking of the "departure", or the "falling away" (Greek: apostasia), in 2 Thessalonians 2:3? If so, that isn't the rapture, but the apostasy, when some in the church will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and begins a worldwide persecution against the church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it is derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the 1st century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

iamlamad said in post 565:

One day soon the Bride of Christ will be departed and "taken out of the way.l"

Regarding being "taken out of the way", are you thinking of the restrainer being taken out of the way in 2 Thessalonians 2:7b? If so, note that the restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit (as is often claimed), because in the future, the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), while the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he is always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church or the Holy Spirit in the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10).

 

[TPeterY]

I try not to add words to the scripture. I see it doesn't seem to matter to you. I guess we will have to disagree on that one.

What I'm trying to tell you is when you use a translation that doesn't structure verses into paragraph form or spearate each new topic with a title, you can't always identify whenever the subject changes in a chapter like the KJV.

Using translations like those, it's up to the reader to try to find out where the beginning is and the end is of a particular subject within the chapter. In almost all the bible, the first word in the chapter never pertains to the same subject as the last word in that chapter.

A good majority of chapters in the bible is written about numerous topics. Look at Matthew 24 for example in the NKJV with the ESV compared to the KJV. In the NKJV, it's written in paragraph and broken down into 7 topics, 6 topics for the ESV, but with the KJV, it's up to the reader to figure out where the subject end and where a new one begins. Plus the wording has been obsolete for 300 years and it's one of the hardest translation to understand.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%2024&version=NKJV;ESV;KJV

But it's still one of the best translation today and there's nothing wrong with the KJV but it's up to the reader to understand what he's reading if he chooses to use that translation. People are basically more prone to errors when reading a book with everything written like a wall of text, nothing to identify where something begins and where it ends.

Get what I'm trying to tell you?


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Why would Christ be "coming in his kingdom," except to reign? Young's provides an honest translation of that verse. This is Strongs' for "kingdom":

(932) basileia, bas-il-i’-ah; from (935) (basileu>v); properly royalty, i.e. (abstract) rule, or (concrete) a realm (literal or figurative): — kingdom, + reign.

YLT should never use the word reign. Christ never reigned on earth during His first coming. Even if people believe Christ's second coming happened at 70 AD, Christ would be reigning the last 2K years, but we don't see that. So that word "Reign" in the YLT is misleading.

And again, if every translation uses Kingdom while the YLT is the only translation using Reign, that should trigger a red flag to readers.

Matthew 16:28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing - Online Bible Study Tools

The YLT is a poor translation. I see the wordings it uses with the two bible tool I use regularly and it's not translation I would recommend. It's just a poor choice of words. Prophecy is probably the hardest to understand for most people, best to use multiple translations for confirmation, it's what I do.

Example:

Matthew 12:28 (NKJV)
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

For your information, I have no problem whatsoever with the word "kingdom", nor with the phrase "coming in His kingdom." I do have a problem with the pretense that it has anything to do with the transfiguration.

It's also a prophetic sign of what He'll look like during His second coming. He revealed to Peter, James and John the glory of His appearing. and when the world see Christ coming in His kingdom with power and great glory near the end, this is how He'll look --- shining brightly like the sun and His clothes white and bright as light. It's why He transfigured before them and documented in the bible.

Matthew 17:2 (NKJV)
and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.

People will know it's Christ during the second coming as He'll be the light of the world when the Middle East is pitch black covered in utter darkness.

Amos 5:20 (NKJV)
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light?
Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?

Zephaniah 1:15 (NKJV)
That day is a day of wrath,
A day of trouble and distress,
A day of devastation and desolation,
A day of darkness and gloominess,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,

Zechariah 14:5-7 (NKJV)
5) Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
6) It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7) It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.


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One thing we do know: Luke 23:28-30 was fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem, and the children of those women bore the brunt of the wrath of the Lamb of God. That is history.

That was during the crucifixion. It's history, not prophecy. Nothing about that incident proves prophecies was fulfilled during that time. Why the need to bring up this subject?

I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you be more specific?

I was referring to Luke 23:28-30. I dunno how you got the words "Matthew 16:28 KJV" in there. I never wrote Matthew 16:28 KJV in there.

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Did you even bother to read your own reference? And where does it say that Jesus will return in the future to gather his flock? You will not find it in either of those passages.

When Jesus returns, it will be to judge the quick and the dead, of all peoples, and of all nations.

You're not following me. Here look at this way.

After He condemned the Pharisees mentioned in Matthew 23:1-36. He wept and revealed how much He dearly wanted to gather His people as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. He's the shepherd, and wants dearly to someday shepherd His flock. Read how passionately He is in Matthew 23.

Also see in verse 39, He said they will not see Him till Israel recognizes Him as their Lord? This is important too for prophecy.

Matthew 23:37-39 (NKJV)
37) “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38) See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39) for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

First thing He does when he returns to earth in His second coming is this. He gathers His own as a hen gather her chicks.

Matthew 24:31 (NKJV)
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:31 is a 2000 year fulfillment of Christ's desire (Matthew 23:37-39) to be with us and shepherd us --- His flock.

Joel 3:16 (NKJV)
The Lord also will roar from Zion,
And utter His voice from Jerusalem;
The heavens and earth will shake;
But the Lord will be a shelter for His people,
And the strength of the children of Israel.

Ezekiel 34:12-13 (NKJV)
12) As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13) And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country.

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Let me try to put this matter to rest. The word generation, as used in the Gospel, in only mentioned in the context (or framework) of Jesus and his disciples. That is, when Jesus speaks of "this generation", he is referring to his generation. Therefore, when Jesus said, "the blood of all the prophets shall be required of this generation," he was speaking to those of his generation. And that is exactly what happened. About 40 years later, vengeance was extracted on that generation, which was his generation.

I am at a loss why so many futurists have a difficult time understanding such a simple concept.

You're kinda on the right track but you're taking everything written too literal. If His second coming already came, all the prophecies would have been fulfilled and documented by already.

The only prophecy He foretold in the NT that was to occur to the people living in His time is in Matthew 23:1-36 & 24:1-2.

This is it all there is, nothing else, and by 70 AD it was fulfilled. This ended and fulfilled Daniel's 69th week plus a generation (70 years) - Matthew 23:36. If you can understand this, you can figure out the year of His Second Coming. No, I'm not kidding, there's biblical confirmation of the year.

The 70th week absolutely in no way could not had continued during His time because the Gospel (new Covenant) He brought to us had to be preached throughout the world first before the 70th week came resume.

Among His last words and command was "preach the gospel to all the world and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14.

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Are you referring to the ridiculous interpretation that the transfiguration was what Jesus meant when he said he would be coming in his kingdom? If so, they who died in those six days? Jesus said only some would not taste of death, so who died?

Futurism . . . LOL!

You're not getting this. It's not entirely literal. There's at least 3 prophetic messages in it for people in the tribulation.

Mark 9:1-4 New King James Version (NKJV)
1) And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”
2) Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. 3) His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them.
4) And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.

1) Moses and Elijah will appear during the tribulation as the 2 witnesses.
2) Majority of Jews in Israel will not die during the tribulation until they see Moses and Elijah. It's because the tribulation is broken down into two halves. The first half is judgement and most people in the world will escape death and will be given a chance to decide if they'll repent and come to Christ, if not they will parish in the second half during His wrath. Not many will die in the first half.
3) Some will see Christ coming in the glory of His kingdom.

This is what He meant when He said Matthew 16:28. You need to understand Jesus spoke many many times in parables and metaphors. There's tons of prophecies in His words.

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If you were referring to the equally ridiculous notion that Moses and Elias are the two witnesses, then where does it say that Elias and Moses are the two witnesses? I missed that part, and I have been reading the King James Version of the New Testament for over 50 years, and the Old Testament for nearly as long as the New. I have also read many other versions over the years. One would think I would have stumbled across it at least once.

Admit it. You made up the part about Elias and Moses being the two witnesses.

No dude, are you crazy? I don't kid around with this stuff. This has turned into my life the last three years as I'm doing everything I can to prepare myself and others to be ready and prepare for His return.

First off, I already figured out you use the KJV so I quoted Mark 9:1-4 in the KJV in my last thread. I did noticed the KJV address Elijah as Elias. I have no idea why it does that when almost all other translation use Elijah, even the NKJV.

Okay now, yes I'm dead serious. The two witnesses will be Elijah and Moses. Not only does the bible hinted with scriptures, but look from a logical perspective.

1) What is the purpose of these two prophecies: Daniel's 70th Week and a Time of Jacob's Trouble? To forget the law and get as much of Israel to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior (John 3:16).

2) Israel didn't listen to John the Baptist, they didn't even listen to Christ to accept John 3:16.

3) They only listened to the words of the Prophet and the Law. Okay, during the tribulation, God will give them the Prophet and the Law to persuade them to turn from the law and accept John 3:16.

4) Moses will perform those pledges upon them as mentioned in Rev 11:6 just as he did in Egypt till they believe.

5) If Israel don't listen to the Law (Moses) turn to John 3:16 by the middle of the tribulation, they will die during Jacob's Trouble.

6) This is not about Hebrews 9:27 where everyone is appointed once to die thinking it'll be Enoch and Elijah. If Christ couldn't convince Israel to accept Grace, Enoch won't be able to get to 1st base with Israel.

7) Many will never taste death after the rapture either. It has nothing to do with Hebrews 9:27. It's all about John 3:16.

Malachi 4:4-5 (NKJV)
4) “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgments.
5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Revelation 11:6 (NKJV)
These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

Mark 9:4 (NKJV)
And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.


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[TPeterY]

LOL! I am absolutely, positively, certain that there is not a single verse in the New Testament that states Christ will ever physically walk on the earth again.

LOL well guess what!!! The word Zion is mentioned in the bible 176 times, Sion once and almost all reference of Zion is on earth.

Regarding Rev 14:1, you do know that mount Sion is the heavenly home of the city of God, New Jerusalem, don't you? Let me explain, beginning with Isaiah:

"Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste." -- Isa 28:16​

Here, let's have a look at Isaiah 28 beyond verse 16.

Isaiah 28:16-21 (ERV)
16) Because of these things, the Lord God says, “I will put a rock—a cornerstone—in the ground in Zion. This will be a very precious stone. Everything will be built on this very important rock. Anyone who trusts in that rock will not be disappointed.
17) “Workers use a string and weight to show their work is straight and true. I will use justice as the string and goodness as the weight when I lay that foundation. But your safe places were built on lies. So they will be destroyed and washed away when the troubles come against you like hail storms and floods. 18) Your agreement with death will be erased. Your contract with Sheol will not help you.
“Someone will come and punish you. He will make you like the dirt he walks on. 19) He will come and take you away. Your punishment will be terrible. Your punishment will come early in the morning, and it will continue late into the night.
“Then you will understand this story: 20) A man tried to sleep on a bed that was too short for him. He had a blanket that was not wide enough to cover him. The bed and blanket were useless, and so were your agreements.”
21) The Lord will fight as he did at Mount Perazim. He will be angry as he was in Gibeon Valley. He will do what he must do. It will be what some stranger should do, but he will finish his work. Yes, this is a stranger’s job.


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If Zion in Isaiah 28:16 is in heaven, where in heaven can you find these things?

1) Workers
2) Hailstorm and floods
3) Someone will come and punish you
4) the dirt he walks on
5) punishment
6) morning
7) the night
8) A man tried to sleep on a bed that was too short for him
9) Gibeon Valley
10) a stranger’s job

Where in heaven can you find any of those, none! Isaiah 26:18 is referring to Zion on earth.

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Peter stated that was fulfilled (so did Christ):

"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded." -- 1Pet 2:6​

So, the corner stone has been laid in Sion. And where is Sion? Where is the corner stone?

Look at the passages before and after verse 6. It reveals what is being built up. Zion is not a place in heaven and the living stones being built up are each of us who believes.

1 Peter 2:5-7 English Standard Version (ESV)
5) you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6) For it stands in Scripture:

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
7) So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”

Now look at the rest of the scripture in the link, nothing about a heavenly Zion. This a spiritual temple in each of us being built based on our faith.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+peter+2%3A5-10&version=ESV;CEV;NIV


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The corner stone is part of the foundation of the Holy Temple, of which we as Christians are also a part of:

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." -- Eph 2:19-22​

LOL Rev20, you gotta be kidding me. Look at the other translations that's easier to understand. Eph 2:19-22 is talking about the body of Christ being built, and we that believe are part of this with Christ as our cornerstone. This is nothing about being in heaven. LOL!!!

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph+2%3A19-22&version=ESV;CEV;NIV


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So, the Holy Temple is on mount Sion. And where is mount Sion?

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." -- Heb 12:22-24​

So, on mount Sion we find the Holy Temple and the City of God, populated by, among other spirits: the Saints, the Apostles, the Prophets, and Jesus Christ.


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Rev20, only problem, the heavenly Jerusalem has not come down upon us yet and won't until the end of the millennium.

Revelation 21:1-2 (NKJV)
1) Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2) Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


* Now look at the many other verses showing Zion on earth.

2 Samuel 5:7 New King James Version (NKJV)
Nevertheless David took the stronghold of Zion (that is, the City of David).

1 Kings 8:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Now Solomon assembled the elders of Israel and all the heads of the tribes, the chief fathers of the children of Israel, to King Solomon in Jerusalem, that they might bring up the ark of the covenant of the Lord from the City of David, which is Zion.

2 Kings 19:30-32 New King James Version (NKJV)
30) And the remnant who have escaped of the house of Judah
Shall again take root downward,
And bear fruit upward.
31) For out of Jerusalem shall go a remnant,
And those who escape from Mount Zion.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.’
32) “Therefore thus says the Lord concerning the king of Assyria:
‘He shall not come into this city,
Nor shoot an arrow there,
Nor come before it with shield,
Nor build a siege mound against it.

1 Chronicles 11:5 New King James Version (NKJV)
But the inhabitants of Jebus said to David, “You shall not come in here!” Nevertheless David took the stronghold of Zion (that is, the City of David).

2 Chronicles 5:2 New King James Version (NKJV)
Now Solomon assembled the elders of Israel and all the heads of the tribes, the chief fathers of the children of Israel, in Jerusalem, that they might bring the ark of the covenant of the Lord up from the City of David, which is Zion.

And below is still to come.

Micah 4:6-7 New King James Version (NKJV)
6) “In that day,” says the Lord,
“I will assemble the lame,
I will gather the outcast
And those whom I have afflicted;
7) I will make the lame a remnant,
And the outcast a strong nation;
So the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion
From now on, even forever.




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[Danoh]

Its fascinating; the difference in views between people on here despite the same pasaages cited . Some years back, I read these two books back to back. One asserting tracing its Seventh Day Adventist position, another its Baptist. Felt like their respective authors just copied each other as to the passages of Scripture; each slanted to his own view.

That's why we should more explore the differing views than to get so serious about them, let alone, allow ourselves to so easily be offended by another's supposed "heresy."

"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin," Rom. 14.

In other words, within the context of that chapter, if its not your full persuasion, okay; so don't hold to it.

As for you, Rev20, well, you're just too much fun - you noted "I try not to add words to the scripture. I see it doesn't seem to matter to you. I guess we will have to disagree on that one."

Yeah, okay sure..

 

[shturt678s]

Jack,

You can nit pick or correct me anytime. I know it is, the truth in love.

"the truthful direction in agape."

Unfortuanately the concept of "love" lacks the "forever higher divine purpose part" in all the diverse various shades of meanings in English regarding the concept of "love."

Even in German misses it.

Old Jack head's up opinion

btw not asserting the inconvenient and uncomfortable non-modern Lutheran position.

 

[Rev20]

What I'm trying to tell you is when you use a translation that doesn't structure verses into paragraph form or spearate each new topic with a title, you can't always identify whenever the subject changes in a chapter like the.

Why would you want another man's opinion about when the subject changes? Shouldn't you be learning that for yourself?
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A good majority of chapters in the bible is written about numerous topics. Look at Matthew 24 for example in the N with the ESV compared to the. In the N, it's written in paragraph and broken down into 7 topics, 6 topics for the ESV, but with the, it's up to the reader to figure out where the subject end and where a new one begins. Plus the wording has been obsolete for 300 years and it's one of the hardest translation to understand.

I find the King James Version by far the easiest to read and understand.
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Get what I'm trying to tell you?

Yes. You don't trust the Word (the Spirit) to guide you; but prefer to rely on man's opinions.
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YLT should never use the word reign. Christ never reigned on earth during His first coming. Even if people believe Christ's second coming happened at 70 AD, Christ would be reigning the last 2K years, but we don't see that. So that word "Reign" in the YLT is misleading.

I believe your understanding has been weakened by all the man-inserted chapter breaks and opinions. It is a biblical fact that Christ reigns on earth (as well as in heaven) at this time, and for ever:

"Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." -- 1Pet 3:22​

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool." -- Heb 10:12-13​

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." -- Heb 12:2​

The throne of David is in heaven. If you don't believe me, maybe you will believe David:

"The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven: " -- Ps 11:4​

"The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." -- Ps 103:19​

Or Isaiah:

"Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?" -- Isa 66:1​

Or Peter:

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool." -- Acts 2:33-35​

Or the martyr, Stephen:

"Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?" -- Acts 7:48-49​

Or Paul:

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." -- 1Cor 15:25-26​

Or, maybe the Lord, himself:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." -- John 18:36​

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There is not a single verse in the New Testament that states the Lord will ever sit on an earthly throne; nor is there a single verse that states the Lord will ever physically walk on the earth again. I don't know why you keep insisting that he will?
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And again, if every translation uses Kingdom while the YLT is the only translation using Reign, that should trigger a red flag to readers.

The word "reign" is an appropriate translation of the Greek in that verse. You are the first to question it, that I am aware of.
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The YLT is a poor translation. I see the wordings it uses with the two bible tool I use regularly and it's not translation I would recommend. It's just a poor choice of words. Prophecy is probably the hardest to understand for most people, best to use multiple translations for confirmation, it's what I do.

Young's Literal Translation is considered a very valuable translation by a vast number of scholars in that the goal of Robert Young was to present a literal and accurate "tense" to the verses. The fact that you attempt to degrade it makes me question your scholarship.
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Matthew 12:28 (N)
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

You have to do better than that. The kingdom of God existed in the days of John the Baptist, or earlier:

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." -- Matt 11:12​

The kingdom was controlled by the Jews (actually, Satan.) When Jesus cast out demons, he was pulling those people away from Satan's (the Jews') leadership, to His own leadership. But when Jesus came in his kingdom with his angels, in the glory of his father, he sat down on the throne of that kingdom. That is when he took complete control of the kingdom. You may recall this verse:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." -- Matt 21:43​

That happened when Jerusalem and the old guard were destroyed in AD70.
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It's also a prophetic sign of what He'll look like during His second coming. He revealed to Peter, James and John the glory of His appearing. and when the world see Christ coming in His kingdom with power and great glory near the end, this is how He'll look --- shining brightly like the sun and His clothes white and bright as light. It's why He transfigured before them and documented in the bible.

I guess John was not paying attention, because he implied he had no idea what Christ would look like in the future:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." -- 1Joh 3:2​

You are making all this up. Next subject . . .
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You're not following me. Here look at this way.

After He condemned the Pharisees mentioned in Matthew 23:1-36. He wept and revealed how much He dearly wanted to gather His people as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. He's the shepherd, and wants dearly to someday shepherd His flock. Read how passionately He is in Matthew 23.

Also see in verse 39, He said they will not see Him till Israel recognizes Him as their Lord? This is important too for prophecy.

Those are meaningless dispensational talking points, all made-up to fit an agenda. Jesus never said he would, in the future, gather Israel "under his wings". Not once. He was weeping because the city and all its people were to suffer the greatest tribulation, ever, and within his own generation (in about 40 years, to be more precise.)

Verse 39 is considered the Dispensational "Gotcha" verse. No one has a clue what it means, so its meaning is limited only by one's imagination. If you don't believe dispensationalist have vivid imaginations, check out the myriad of scary books that litter the shelves of "Christian" bookstores. LOL!
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First thing He does when he returns to earth in His second coming is this. He gathers His own as a hen gather her chicks.

Matthew 24:31 (N)
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Chicks? No, he gathered his Elect, which were the remnant of Israel. They serve him forever in his holy city on heavenly mount Sion. Some of their names are Paul, Peter, John, James, Stephen . . . the Chosen Generation of Israel--the Royal Priesthood.
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Matthew 24:31 is a 2000 year fulfillment of Christ's desire (Matthew 23:37-39) to be with us and shepherd us --- His flock.

Joel 3:16 (N)
The Lord also will roar from Zion,
And utter His voice from Jerusalem;
The heavens and earth will shake;
But the Lord will be a shelter for His people,
And the strength of the children of Israel.

Ezekiel 34:12-13 (N)
12) As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13) And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country.

The gathering of the lost sheep occurred during the ministries of Christ and his disciples:

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." -- Matt 10:5-6​

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." -- Matt 15:24​

That seven years of "covenant confirmation" fulfilled the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. The 70th week ended when the Gentiles (Cornelius) were invited into the kingdom around Acts 10.
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You're kinda on the right track but you're taking everything written too literal. If His second coming already came, all the prophecies would have been fulfilled and documented by already.

Kinda, huh? LOL! You are too much, Peter.


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[Rev20]

The only prophecy He foretold in the NT that was to occur to the people living in His time is in Matthew 23:1-36 & 24:1-2. This is it all there is, nothing else, and by 70 AD it was fulfilled.

Add all of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, plus most of the Revelation (thru chapter 19) and you will be getting closer to the truth.
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This ended and fulfilled Daniel's 69th week plus a generation (70 years) - Matthew 23:36. If you can understand this, you can figure out the year of His Second Coming. No, I'm not kidding, there's biblical confirmation of the year.

LOL! Peter, you are joking, right? I, personally, have no clue when Christ will come to judge the quick and the dead; I only know it will occur after Satan is destroyed.
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The 70th week absolutely in no way could not had continued during His time because the Gospel (new Covenant) He brought to us had to be preached throughout the world first before the 70th week came resume.

Peter, Jesus did not become the Messiah until the beginning of the 70th week. He ministered on earth for a half-week until he was "cut-off" (killed). So 69 1/2 weeks were completed at the time of his crucifixion. His disciples fulfilled the last half-week of the required covenant confirmation.

I think where you might be confused is the reference to the destruction and desolation. The time allotted for the desolations were determined (decreed) separately from the other events. See the last clauses in verses 26 and 27 for those decrees.

I recommend you throw away all that dispensational literature and start reading Daniel 9, afresh.
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Among His last words and command was "preach the gospel to all the world and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14.

That was fulfilled before Paul wrote the book of Colossians. But first, let me provide some background. The term "all the world" was considered the Roman empire:

"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed." -- Luke 2:1​

On the day of Pentecost this occurred:

"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven." -- Acts 2:5​

These were the instructions of Christ to his disciples:

"And the gospel must first be published among all nations." -- Mark 13:10​

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." -- Mark 16:15​

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." -- Matt 24:14​

Don't be misled by the last clause. The "end" Jesus was reffering to was in response to a question asked by his disciples about when the "end of the age" would occur. Jesus said it would occur when the gospel was preached to all nations (and to every creature.)

This is Paul writing of both fulfilments:

"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:" -- Col 1:5-6​

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" -- Col 1:23​

I know that is a hard thing to fathom if you have been led to believe that Jesus meant the world as we know it today.
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You're not getting this. It's not entirely literal. There's at least 3 prophetic messages in it for people in the tribulation.

Mark 9:1-4 New King James Version (N)
1) And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”
2) Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. 3) His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them.
4) And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.

1) Moses and Elijah will appear during the tribulation as the 2 witnesses.

That is 100% Grade-A Baloney. LOL!
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2) Majority of Jews in Israel will not die during the tribulation until they see Moses and Elijah. It's because the tribulation is broken down into two halves. The first half is judgement and most people in the world will escape death and will be given a chance to decide if they'll repent and come to Christ, if not they will parish in the second half during His wrath. Not many will die in the first half.
3) Some will see Christ coming in the glory of His kingdom.

This is what He meant when He said Matthew 16:28. You need to understand Jesus spoke many many times in parables and metaphors. There's tons of prophecies in His words.

When you add the imaginations of futurists, there are tons of them, for certain. LOL!
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No dude, are you crazy? I don't kid around with this stuff. This has turned into my life the last three years as I'm doing everything I can to prepare myself and others to be ready and prepare for His return.

Please count me out of your preparation. If you believe you know the names of the two witnesses, then you are absolutely not believable, in any way shape or form.

For the record, and not that it means anything, I have been studying the scriptures for over half-century.
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First off, I already figured out you use the so I quoted Mark 9:1-4 in the in my last thread. I did noticed the address Elijah as Elias. I have no idea why it does that when almost all other translation use Elijah, even the N.

Once you get a little experience under you belt, you will find that the Greek translation of the Old Testament, called the Septuagint (or LXX), uses names such as Elias (Elijah,) Esaias (Isaiah,) Jeremias (Jeremiah,) Osee (Hosea,) Zecharias (Zechariah,) and Jonas (Jonah.) Christ and the apostles routinely quoted from the Septuagint translation, which was commonly used in the Greek-speaking parts of the Roman empire, including Judaea. I quote from the LXX on a regular basis.
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Okay now, yes I'm dead serious. The two witnesses will be Elijah and Moses. Not only does the bible hinted with scriptures, but look from a logical perspective.

1) What is the purpose of these two prophecies: Daniel's 70th Week and a Time of Jacob's Trouble? To forget the law and get as much of Israel to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior (John 3:16).

2) Israel didn't listen to John the Baptist, they didn't even listen to Christ to accept John 3:16.

3) They only listened to the words of the Prophet and the Law. Okay, during the tribulation, God will give them the Prophet and the Law to persuade them to turn from the law and accept John 3:16.

4) Moses will perform those pledges upon them as mentioned in Rev 11:6 just as he did in Egypt till they believe.

5) If Israel don't listen to the Law (Moses) turn to John 3:16 by the middle of the tribulation, they will die during Jacob's Trouble.

6) This is not about Hebrews 9:27 where everyone is appointed once to die thinking it'll be Enoch and Elijah. If Christ couldn't convince Israel to accept Grace, Enoch won't be able to get to 1st base with Israel.

7) Many will never taste death after the rapture either. It has nothing to do with Hebrews 9:27. It's all about John 3:16.

You do have a vivid imagination, Peter. But these were mostly from the imaginations of others. They are talking points from the modern doctrine of dispensationalism, of which I believe barely a word, and for good reason. It had no biblical foundation.
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Malachi 4:4-5 (N)
4) “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgments.
5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Revelation 11:6 (N)
These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

Mark 9:4 (N)
And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.

Jesus said that John the Baptist fulfilled the Malachi prophecy of the coming of Elijah. Don't you believe Jesus?


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[Danoh]

No, Rev20, Christ said that John came "in the spirit of" Elijah "and IF YE WILL receive it" the Kingdom..."

In short, that was just one more of Israel's testings...