Rapture Before Wrath

[BABerean2]

Sure it does, BAB, as many do with Romans 11:25

http://www.christianforums.com/t7844208/

Brother Danoh,

Your interpretation of Romans 11:26 comes from the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Manuel Lacunza. It is the original source of Dispensational Theology. The one who always comments about others using "books based" knowledge has no idea how his interpretation started with a Jesuit book.

Below is the perversion from page 349 of Lacunza's book.

"Jerusalem, saith Christ, shall be trodden down of the nations until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled; that is, until the end of the world, or some short while before. When? When Antichrist, king and Messiah of the Jews, and universal monarch of the whole world, shall build anew that city, and plant in it the court of his universal empire. The blindness of Israel, saith the apostle, must endure until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. When this fulness hath entered in, or the time of the nations are concluded, then all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, that is, (continue the interpreters) Israel shall be saved, a little while before the end of the world, after the death of their false Messiah. Oh that it were possible entirely to close this door or aperture, and take away for ever this ordinary escape! What good fruits might not thence result to the true and plain understanding of so many and such weighty prophecies."

Stam had the same thing in his book by using the word "then" instead of "so".

It is taking the word "so" which is an adverb of manner and changing it to "then" which is an adverb of time.

Paul had just finished explaining that all of the descendants of Jacob were not to be part of Israel of the promise.


Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(All of Jacob's descendants are not included in Israel of the Promise.)

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(Being a descendant of Jacob does not make one a child of God.)


Below is the verse found in God's Word.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

("so" is an adverb of manner indicated by the Greek. It is not an adverb of time.)

G3779
οὕτω
houtō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.


You are then interpreting verse 11:25 to match up with Lacunza's perversion of 11:26.

It is an excellent example of changing and also taking out of context God's Word.

 

[shturt678s]

Brother Danoh,

Your interpretation of Romans 11:26 comes from the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Manuel Lacunza. It is the original source of Dispensational Theology. The one who always comments about others using "books based" knowledge has no idea how his interpretation started with a Jesuit book.

Below is the perversion from page 349 of Lacunza's book.

"Jerusalem, saith Christ, shall be trodden down of the nations until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled; that is, until the end of the world, or some short while before. When? When Antichrist, king and Messiah of the Jews, and universal monarch of the whole world, shall build anew that city, and plant in it the court of his universal empire. The blindness of Israel, saith the apostle, must endure until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. When this fulness hath entered in, or the time of the nations are concluded, then all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, that is, (continue the interpreters) Israel shall be saved, a little while before the end of the world, after the death of their false Messiah. Oh that it were possible entirely to close this door or aperture, and take away for ever this ordinary escape! What good fruits might not thence result to the true and plain understanding of so many and such weighty prophecies."

Stam had the same thing in his book by using the word "then" instead of "so".

It is taking the word "so" which is an adverb of manner and changing it to "then" which is an adverb of time.

Paul had just finished explaining that all of the descendants of Jacob were not to be part of Israel of the promise.


Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(All of Jacob's descendants are not included in Israel of the Promise.)

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(Being a descendant of Jacob does not make one a child of God.)


Below is the verse found in God's Word.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

("so" is an adverb of manner indicated by the Greek. It is not an adverb of time.)

G3779
οὕτω
houtō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

I prefer the "thus" rendering.

You are then interpreting verse 11:25 to match up with Lacunza's perversion of 11:26.

It is an excellent example of changing and also taking out of context God's Word.

Old Jack

 

[iamlamad]

Did you just show up here without reading these 50 pages? OF COURSE there is proof of the pretrib rapture. You just don't believe it. That is not a problem on the side of pretrib, that is your problem. Try studying 1 Thes. chapter 5, where Paul shows us that his rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord......NOT THE day of the Lord, but the trigger for it......meaning the rapture comes FIRST, before the Day of the Lord. While the sinners gets the "sudden destruction," those worthy to be caught up get "salvation" or get raptured, and get to "live together with Him." (So shall they ever be with the Lord.)

This "sudden destruction" that begins the Day of the Lord is the great earthquake at the 6th seal, where John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come." And Paul wrote that God will set no appointment with His wrath.

Next, just notice that the great crowd too large to number, Rev. 7, is seen in heaven BEFORE the 70th week or "trib" ever starts.

Next, notice that the marriage and supper are IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends to earth for the battle of Armageddon. Ask yourself, "how am I to get to the marriage and supper?" In YOUR theory, you won't.

LAMAD



this is all too simple, IF you had an explicit statement from scripture for your first premise then you'd be posting it........peat and repeat , everything you're making reference to in this response is once again based on your first assumption, you can't prove there are little green men on Mars but you're happy to discuss what they wear, ie, you can't prove point A but you still go on to points b,c,d ,etc as if point A is truth.......it's called begging the question.......................you can harp all you want that there is proof that Christ returns before tribulation but you certainly are unable to prove your first assumption with ONE SINGLE verse from scripture, without all your rhetoric just post the one verse that says Christ returns before tribulation to gather his saints ?

Neither can anyone prove WITH ONE SINGLE VERSE that the rapture will come AFTER the days of tribulation.

HOWEVER: we don't NEED "one single verse." NO verse in scripture stands alone. God has given us enough. Our theory of each verse we read MUST agree with all other verses. A posttrib doctrine CANNOT and WILL NOT stand up to this test. Why? Because God is pretrib and the bible is pretrib. No other theory will pass the test of fitting will all end times scriptures.

You cannot find ONE SCRIPTURE anywhere that will show how a posttrib rapture theory will allow believers to get to heaven for the marriage and supper.

I stand by what I previously wrote: "You just don't believe it. That is not a problem on the side of pretrib, that is your problem." I showed you scriptural PROOF that Jesus comes first FOR His bride. You just did not believe it. Your preconceived glasses are TOO thick. Try removing them, and approaching the end times again with NO preconceptions. Determine to know nothing unless the Holy Spirit teaches you.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad,you effectively get the wrong timing about when Jesus will come as a thief.
The Bible prove you wrong again.
Revelation 16:15 is when Jesus come as a thief and that will not be during a time of peace and safety...
Revelation 16:12-16

12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

*Note that i am not saying that the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the gathering of those alive and in Christ to meet them with Jesus in the air have happened yet (per Rev 16:12-16 )... but the timing is close...

Revelation 16 KJV

I guess you have forgotten what Solomon wrote, about nothing ever new comes, but history repeats itself - what was will be again. The TRUTH is, Jesus comes as a thief TWICE MORE; first FOR His bride, and then WITH His bride. NO ONE will know the day nor the hour of EITHER coming.

Solomon was right on! There will be TWO more times there will be signs in the sun and moon: the first as the sign for the Day of the Lord, the next time as a sign for the coming of Jesus for the Battle of Armageddon.

LAMAD

 

[Bro in Christ]

Brother Danoh,

Your interpretation of Romans 11:26 comes from the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Manuel Lacunza. It is the original source of Dispensational Theology. The one who always comments about others using "books based" knowledge has no idea how his interpretation started with a Jesuit book.

Below is the perversion from page 349 of Lacunza's book.

"Jerusalem, saith Christ, shall be trodden down of the nations until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled; that is, until the end of the world, or some short while before. When? When Antichrist, king and Messiah of the Jews, and universal monarch of the whole world, shall build anew that city, and plant in it the court of his universal empire. The blindness of Israel, saith the apostle, must endure until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. When this fulness hath entered in, or the time of the nations are concluded, then all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, that is, (continue the interpreters) Israel shall be saved, a little while before the end of the world, after the death of their false Messiah. Oh that it were possible entirely to close this door or aperture, and take away for ever this ordinary escape! What good fruits might not thence result to the true and plain understanding of so many and such weighty prophecies."

Stam had the same thing in his book by using the word "then" instead of "so".

It is taking the word "so" which is an adverb of manner and changing it to "then" which is an adverb of time.

Paul had just finished explaining that all of the descendants of Jacob were not to be part of Israel of the promise.


Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(All of Jacob's descendants are not included in Israel of the Promise.)

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(Being a descendant of Jacob does not make one a child of God.)


Below is the verse found in God's Word.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

("so" is an adverb of manner indicated by the Greek. It is not an adverb of time.)

G3779
οὕτω
houtō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.


You are then interpreting verse 11:25 to match up with Lacunza's perversion of 11:26.

It is an excellent example of changing and also taking out of context God's Word.

Agree that by faith the same but different promises given

Rev 2:9 & 3:9 gives warning of Gentiles taking Jewish promises

 

[shturt678s]

Agree that by faith the same but different promises given

Rev 2:9 & 3:9 gives warning of Gentiles taking Jewish promises

Not picking on you my brother, ie, same promise!

Old Jack's opinion

 

[Bro in Christ]

Not picking on you my brother, ie, same promise!

Old Jack's opinion

It was a warning... ???? What promise

 

[Manasseh_]

Neither can anyone prove WITH ONE SINGLE VERSE that the rapture will come AFTER the days of tribulation.

HOWEVER: we don't NEED "one single verse." NO verse in scripture stands alone. God has given us enough. Our theory of each verse we read MUST agree with all other verses. A posttrib doctrine CANNOT and WILL NOT stand up to this test. Why? Because God is pretrib and the bible is pretrib. No other theory will pass the test of fitting will all end times scriptures.

You cannot find ONE SCRIPTURE anywhere that will show how a posttrib rapture theory will allow believers to get to heaven for the marriage and supper.

I stand by what I previously wrote: "You just don't believe it. That is not a problem on the side of pretrib, that is your problem." I showed you scriptural PROOF that Jesus comes first FOR His bride. You just did not believe it. Your preconceived glasses are TOO thick. Try removing them, and approaching the end times again with NO preconceptions. Determine to know nothing unless the Holy Spirit teaches you.

LAMAD

this is sad.......first you do admit there is no verse(s) that explicitly state the fact that Christ returns before tribulation and then you contradict yourself by saying that you showed proof..........???, if you have no evidence to begin with then you certainly can't produce proof about any part of this false doctrine whether it's the first assumption or all the assumptions built from the first

'Begging the question'--- or assuming the answer, is a logical fallacy that occurs when the conclusion of an argument is used as a premise of that same argument; i.e., the premises would not work if the conclusion wasn't already assumed to be true.

your false doctrine is nothing more than a fallacy built from your first assumption

fal·la·cy--a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound argument
a failure in reasoning that renders an argument invalid.
faulty reasoning; misleading or unsound argument.

 

[Rev20]

You're on the right track but that's not the same generation Christ was referring to. First note, a generation in the bible can have two meanings. 1) It can refers to a group, 2) It also implies a length in time.

A generation in the bible is 70 years. Christ's usage of the word generation often refers to a length in time, not always people.

There is not a single instance in the gospels where Christ was prophesying of any generation, but his own. The book of Matthew even begins by explaining it is about the generation of Christ:

"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." -- Matt 1:1​

Jesus told his disciples that he would come before their ministries were finished:

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. . . . And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." -- Matt 10:5-6, 22-23​

Jesus said some of his disciples would still be alive:

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Matt 16:27-28​

Jesus warned the daughters of Jerusalem that the vengeance would be on them and their children:

"But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us." -- Luke 23:28-30​

He warned the people of Jerusalem that the blood of ALL the prophets would be on their heads, including His:

"That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." -- Luke 11:50-51​

"Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" -- Luke 13:33-34​

And he told his disciples that his coming to destroy Jerusalem and gather his Elect would be within their generation:

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." -- Luke 21:20-22​

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." -- Luke 21:27-32​

The following are the parallel passages in Mark and Matthew. Note the similar warnings to flee Judaea, similar fig tree parables, and similar timing to his generation and the generation of his disciples. Also keep in mind that the elect are not you and me, but the faithful remnant of children of Israel that were chosen to serve Christ, as prophesied Isaiah 45:4. This is Mark:

"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:" -- Mark 13:14​

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." -- Mark 13:26-30​

And Matthew:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" -- Matt 24:15-16​

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." -- Matt 24:30-34​

The fig tree parable has sufferered much literary violence. Jesus explained the parable in the next verse when he said to his disciples, "likewise, when ye shall see these things come to pass. . ."

There is a debate among postmilliennial and preterist types on when the millennium began: some believe at his resurrection (as did the Nicene Fathers,) and others at his coming around 70 AD. Jesus said he would sit down in his throne at his coming:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" -- Matt 25:31​

Paul implied Christ was already reigning before his coming, and would continue reigning until the final judgement when death is destroyed:

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." -- 1Cor 15:25-26​

Peter said the same thing, shortly after Christ ascended:

"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool." -- Acts 2:29-35​

Maybe this is explained in Revelation 3:21 when Jesus speaks of two thrones: his throne; and his Fathers.

Peter finished his sermon with another warning to his generation:

"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." -- Acts 2:40​

That generation was Israel's last as God's chosen people. Christ divorced them and married the Church.


.

 

[Rev20]

Rev 2:9 & 3:9 gives warning of Gentiles taking Jewish promises

What would Gentiles be doing in a synagogue? Please explain your comment?


.

 

[Bro in Christ]

What would Gentiles be doing in a synagogue? Please explain your comment?


.

If your not a Jew and they say that they are... They would be a gentile stating they are taking Jewish promises for themselves rev 2:9 & 3:9

 

[bibletruth469]

Brother Bibletruth469, I agree with you completely, as long as there is no link between some aspect of salvation and belief in the pretrib doctrine. Unfortunately, some on this forum have openly stated that those who do not believe in the pretrib doctrine will be "left behind" and have our heads removed by the antichrist system because we did not share their view of the pretrib doctrine. Others have claimed those of another viewpoint will be punished for leading people astray. In my humble opinion, those who make those claims are turning the doctrine into a cult. If you believe it is not a salvation issue, then that is another matter.

I believe that everyone who is saved at the time of the rapture will be part of it. I know that there are Christians who believe in a partial rapture, but I do not believe it because the text in 1 thess 4 mentions ALL.dead and alive in Christ.

I also believe that just because a person has a different view(pre, post, pre wrath) doesn't cause them to not be included in the rapture . All true believers will be included, not professing ones. They will be very surprised when it happens pre trib!!

 

[shturt678s]

It was a warning... ???? What promise

'The Jews had 'faith' in the promise to come where we have 'faith' in the promise that came loosely speaking my brother.

Old Jack that agapes that 'faith' and those promises.

 

[shturt678s]

If your not a Jew and they say that they are... They would be a gentile stating they are taking Jewish promises for themselves rev 2:9 & 3:9

Only a head's up, Rev..2:9 The Jews here by birth and by religion they were outwardly Jews but not inwardly my brother.

Old inwardly Jack's opinion

 

[Rev20]

If your not a Jew and they say that they are... They would be a gentile stating they are taking Jewish promises for themselves rev 2:9 & 3:9

I believe the answer is found in statements by John the Baptist, Christ and Paul:

"But when [John] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." -- Matt 3:7-10​

"[The Jews] answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. . . Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." -- John 8:39-44​

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." -- Rom 2:28-29​

After the day of Pentecost those who rejected Christ began to persecute the early Church. This is allegorized in Revelation 12 as Satan going after the children of the woman who brought forth Christ:

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." -- Rev 12:17​

The Revelation mentions the instigators of some of that persecution, using terms similar to those by Christ in John 8, above:

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." -- Rev 2:9-10​

Thus, those who say they are Jews, and are not, are the natural descendants of Abraham who lost their right to be called Jews by rejecting Christ.


.

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 524:

God is pretrib and the bible is pretrib.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

iamlamad said in post 524:

God is pretrib and the bible is pretrib.

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

iamlamad said in post 524:

You cannot find ONE SCRIPTURE anywhere that will show how a posttrib rapture theory will allow believers to get to heaven for the marriage and supper.

Note that the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

iamlamad said in post 524:

You cannot find ONE SCRIPTURE anywhere that will show how a posttrib rapture theory will allow believers to get to heaven for the marriage and supper.

Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

iamlamad said in post 524:

Jesus comes first FOR His bride.

Note that Jesus' coming FOR his bride and WITH his bride will occur at the same 2nd coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

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iamlamad said in post 525:

NO ONE will know the day nor the hour . . .

Note that Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36); he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and preterist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the first verse means that no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the second verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

--

Coming to know at a certain point in our future the date of Jesus' 2nd coming will help believers to endure patiently during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers. As an analogy, imagine that during a persecution of believers you are thrown naked into a walk-in freezer. The door is locked and the lights are turned off and you are just left in there to slowly suffer the freezing cold. You could freak out at this if you have no idea how long you are going to have to be in there. But what if right after they turn the lights off, you see a little light in the corner, and you walk over and see a note on the wall: "You will be let out and set free in 13.35 minutes" (cf. the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-12). This would greatly help you to remain calm and hang in there patiently for the whole time, even though you might suffer terribly from the cold. In the same way, knowing exactly when Jesus' 2nd coming will occur (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15) will help believers, during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers, to endure patiently to the end (Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10b).

 

[Bible2]

Bro in Christ said in post 526:

Rev 2:9 & 3:9 gives warning of Gentiles taking Jewish promises . . .

Actually, Revelation 2:9b and Revelation 3:9 were referring to unbelieving, genetic Jews living in the literal, 1st century AD cities of Smyrna and Philadelphia (Revelation 2:8, Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b). Unbelieving, genetic Jews aren't truly Jews in the sense that even though they are physically circumcised, they are spiritually uncircumcised (Acts 7:51), and so spiritually they aren't Jews (Romans 2:28-29, Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9). But all believers, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Revelation 3:9b could have been fulfilled in the 1st century AD, in the local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7), in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b). For Revelation 3:8's "open door" meant that Jesus had made it so that congregation could preach the gospel to the people living in that city (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:12, Colossians 4:3; 1 Corinthians 16:9), which evangelism could have eventually resulted in the salvation of the formerly-unbelieving genetic Jews living there (Revelation 3:9b).

Bro in Christ said in post 526:

Rev 2:9 & 3:9 gives warning of Gentiles taking Jewish promises . . .

Regarding Gentiles being given Jewish promises, note that all those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7,8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

Similarly, just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

 

[Riberra]

I guess you have forgotten what Solomon wrote, about nothing ever new comes, but history repeats itself - what was will be again. The TRUTH is, Jesus comes as a thief TWICE MORE; first FOR His bride, and then WITH His bride. NO ONE will know the day nor the hour of EITHER coming.

Then you should have no difficulty to find a verse where Jesus say that he will come again and again..... because without it ,the only thing you have so far are assumptions.

Solomon was right on! There will be TWO more times there will be signs in the sun and moon: the first as the sign for the Day of the Lord,

By two more times you mean two more coming of Jesus yet to come.Your theory fails because Jesus say that he will come only one more time. That is why the next return of Jesus is called Jesus' Second Coming (Advent)

the next time as a sign for the coming of Jesus for the Battle of Armageddon.
LAMAD

That is the Second Coming (Advent)...Jesus First Coming was about 2,000 thousand years ago....For your pre-tribulation rapture theory to work you need to add a third coming of Jesus ....who is not written in the scriptures .Thus you are preaching another Gospel.

 

[Riberra]

Originally Posted by Riberra

Revelation 16:15 is when Jesus come as a thief and that will not be during a time of peace and safety...
Revelation 16:12-16

12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

*Note that i am not saying that the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the gathering of those alive and in Christ to meet them with Jesus in the air have happened yet (per Rev 16:12-16 )... but the timing is close...

Revelation 16 KJV
​

How can we be close to the rapture if you think it'll happen at Rev 16:12-16?

We're not even in the tribulation yet (snip)...

How can you say that were not even in the Tribulation when the sixth angel poured out his VIAL? Are you preaching another Gospel?
Revelation 16:12
And the sixth angel poured out his VIAL

Revelation 16:12-21

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

...and Rev 16:12-16 is just before the start of Armageddon.

Good observation.

 

[TPeterY]

How can you say that were not even in the Tribulation when the sixth angel poured out his VIAL? Are you preaching another Gospel?
Revelation 16:12
And the sixth angel poured out his VIAL

What!? Riberra, are you actually telling me you believe we're already in the second half of the tribulation after the 6th vial?

Did you pull this information info off some website?

_______________________________________

Grrr! Embarrassed to say this but apparently you know something I don't. How did you manage to quote me quoting you?

If you'll be so kind to explain, I'll rewrite what I wrote for you 2 nights ago that was deleted. Valuable information you'll want to know too.


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