Rapture Before Wrath

[Riberra]

What!? Riberra, are you actually telling me you believe we're already in the second half of the tribulation after the 6th vial?

Did you pull this information info off some website?

In fact we are near the end of the Tribulation....
I get it from the Bible.

Grrr! Embarrassed to say this but apparently you know something I don't. How did you manage to quote me quoting you?

If you'll be so kind to explain, I'll rewrite what I wrote for you 2 nights ago that was deleted. Valuable information you'll want to know too.

Here the method:

quote=TPeterY;66396028 (in brackets [ ]
quote=Riberra (in brackets [ ]
My text
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Your text
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[Bible2]

Riberra said in post 542:

In fact we are near the end of the Tribulation....

Actually, the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), hasn't started yet. It will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. After this war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

After that, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say that they are YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind utterly desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when this army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on humanity. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

(And all of this will be part of only the first half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.)

It is at this point that Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal 7-headed, red dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH God's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of the 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[Riberra]

Riberra said in post 542:
-At revelation 16:12-16
In fact we are near the end of the Tribulation....

Actually, the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), hasn't started yet.

Revelation 16 is about the 7 VIALS of the WRATH of God being poured out.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+16&version=KJV

At revelation 16:12-16 the 6 th VIAL is poured out starting the gathering of the world armies for the battle of Armageddon

Revelation 16:15 Jesus come as a thief....
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

....the end is near

In Revelation 16:17 the 7 th Vial is poured out...
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

In Rev 19 Jesus wins the battle of Armageddon and start His Millennium Kingdom with His Saints as rulers with Him (Rev 20:6)
Rev 19:15-21
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[TPeterY]

There is not a single instance in the gospels where Christ was prophesying of any generation, but his own. The book of Matthew even begins by explaining it is about the generation of Christ:

"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." -- Matt 1:1​

Sure there is. There's many but you won't see it if you commingling passages from different scriptures to form one conclusion. I'll show you below what you're doing.

And Matthew 1:1 does not mean only the generation that Christ lived in. If so, are you telling me Abraham and David also lives during the time of Christ? Matthew chapter 1 is about the genealogy from the time of Abraham down to Christ.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?st=1&utm_expid=13466113-11.5w1LoPJgSfySJpp2u36etw.1&search=matt%201%3A1&version=NKJV;ERV;ESV;CEV&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.biblegateway.com%2Fpassage%2F%3Fst%3D1%26search%3Dmatt%25201%253A1%26version%3DNCV%3BERV%3BESV

Jesus told his disciples that he would come before their ministries were finished:

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. . . . And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." -- Matt 10:5-6, 22-23​

Here's an example. Why are you combining verses 5-6 with verse 22-23. They are two different subjects. From verse 5 to 15 is one subject. At verse 16, see how some translations starts with a new title to separate one subject from another?

You can't takes one scripture and commingle it with another and think that's what the bible meant.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?st=1&utm_expid=13466113-11.5w1LoPJgSfySJpp2u36etw.1&search=matt+10%3A5-23&version=NKJV;CEB;ESV;CEV&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.biblegateway.com%2Fpassage%2F%3Fst%3D1%26search%3Dmatt%25201%253A1%26version%3DNKJV%3BERV%3BESV%3BCEV

Jesus said some of his disciples would still be alive:

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Matt 16:27-28​

I know this scripture pretty well. What you did here was place a comma between verse 27 and 28 making it appear they are as one. They are two different topics and separated by a period. Look at the end verse 27, there's a period at the end of every translations below. NO comma!

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come - Online Bible Study Tools

And this is what verse 28 is about. right there at verse 2-3 is what Christ meant "till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." They saw the glory of Christ with Moses and Elijah appearing before them.

This is an important scripture for the Jews in Israel during the tribulation after they witnessed the 2 witnesses. Some or all will not die till they see Moses and Elijah preaching the Gospel of Grace. If they reject the words from the prophet and the law and continue to deny Christ they will be judged and condemn in the 2nd half of the tribulation. Most of Israel will not die till they witness Moses and Elijah during the tribulation is what this is about.

Matthew 16:28-17:3 (KJV)
28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
1) And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2) And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3) And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Jesus warned the daughters of Jerusalem that the vengeance would be on them and their children:

"But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us." -- Luke 23:28-30​

This scripture is totally irrelevant of what we're talking about. If you're trying to tell me Luke 23:28-30 is your idea of Rev 6:16, now I would start questioning your understanding of prophecy because they are clearly not the same event.

He warned the people of Jerusalem that the blood of ALL the prophets would be on their heads, including His:

"That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." -- Luke 11:50-51​

"Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" -- Luke 13:33-34​

And he told his disciples that his coming to destroy Jerusalem and gather his Elect would be within their generation:

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." -- Luke 21:20-22​

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." -- Luke 21:27-32​

We already went through this yesterday with Matthew 23 & 24. I explained and showed you the two passages on the generation for the people living during the time of Christ time and the generation for those of us today. Two different generations of 70 years before tribulation.

You're doing the same thing again but with Luke's version of woe to the Pharisees before 70 AD and the Olivet Discourse reflecting the our current time.

Post #519 http://www.christianforums.com/t7835469-52/

The following are the parallel passages in Mark and Matthew. Note the similar warnings to flee Judaea, similar fig tree parables, and similar timing to his generation and the generation of his disciples. Also keep in mind that the elect are not you and me, but the faithful remnant of children of Israel that were chosen to serve Christ, as prophesied Isaiah 45:4. This is Mark:

"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:" -- Mark 13:14​

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." -- Mark 13:26-30​

And Matthew:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" -- Matt 24:15-16​

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." -- Matt 24:30-34​

It doesn't matter who's version of the Olivet Discourse you use, we already proved yesterday the difference with the generation in Christ's time in Matthew 23 compared to the generation of our time in Matthew 24. Both scriptures above are of current time, not 2000 years ago.

Post #519 http://www.christianforums.com/t7835469-52/

The fig tree parable has sufferered much literary violence. Jesus explained the parable in the next verse when he said to his disciples, "likewise, when ye shall see these things come to pass. . ."

There is a debate among postmilliennial and preterist types on when the millennium began: some believe at his resurrection (as did the Nicene Fathers,) and others at his coming around 70 AD. Jesus said he would sit down in his throne at his coming:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" -- Matt 25:31​

I'm familiar with Matthew 25:31 also. It's not exactly as it sounds like because He has not returned to earth yet in that verse. I just ask you trust me on this, I'll explain it another time because I'm not a postmilliennialist or a preterist so i won't comment too much here.

Will just say it's at the time when He's coming in power and great glory judging the world. He sits in heaven, He will sit on earth too, He has more than one throne. He's King and a king always sits on his throne. He will sit on His throne as He judges too when He comes with power and great glory.

But out of respect, He will be standing when He raptures the church (bride) as He accepts us unto Him.

Paul implied Christ was already reigning before his coming, and would continue reigning until the final judgement when death is destroyed:

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." -- 1Cor 15:25-26​

That is clearly not what Paul said in all of 1 Cor 15. If Christ already came, you will have to prove the rapture of the Church already happen because before Christ reigns on earth till all enemies are destroy, He will rapture us first as mentioned in verse 23.

1 Corinthians 15:23-26 (ERV)
23) But everyone will be raised to life in the right order. Christ was first to be raised. Then, when Christ comes again, those who belong to him will be raised to life. 24) Then the end will come. Christ will destroy all rulers, authorities, and powers. Then he will give the kingdom to God the Father.
25) Christ must rule until God puts all enemies under his control. 26) The last enemy to be destroyed will be death.

If you really believe this, feel free to show in scripture where there was a rapture of the church 2000 years ago. Otherwise, all the prophecies has not happened yet until the rapture happens first.





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[TPeterY]

So leave me out of that conversation because the rapture will NOT happen before Sept 18, 2015.

You know that when Sept 18 2015 come and pass without the pre-tribulation rapture happening you will have put an end to your self appointment as a new age prophet.
Those with eyes to see and ears to hear will fully comprehend that Matthew 24:29-30-31
is the time frame ...for the gathering together (rapture)at Jesus second coming after the tribulation

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24&version=KJV

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.
Well it doesn't look as organize as how I like it to appear but at least it worked. So Riberra, thank you. I'll write up a new post of what I wrote to you tomorrow but first look at what I wrote above and you even underlined a portion of what I wrote.

Now here's my question to you. "Are you certain you're reading what I wrote correctly?"

Read it several times if you have to.

This is from the bottom of Post #55 on this thread http://www.christianforums.com/t7842211-6/



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[BABerean2]

The following parody was done by skydiver626, who has several excellent videos on YouTube exposing the false pretrib doctrine. His name is Steven Straub.

Straub is a former pretribber, who has written a book by the title of "Changed" that is available online.

The video is only a few minutes long. It will be worth your time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=949q5fnTh4A

 

[iamlamad]

Ever wonder why, if "the Spirit is leading," Believers nevertheless so often end up at differing conclusions?

This is a very astute observation and is proven by so many different denominations, each thinking THEY have the truth and other denominations do not.

When it comes to "God told me," what really is TRUTH? The truth is, most believers really have NO IDEA how to get the Holy Spirit to teach them. It is written that He is the teacher, but HOW do we get Him to teach us? Most have no idea.

It is also true that most of the Christian world has BYPASSED Acts 1 & 2, as if these chapters were not even there. In Acts 1 the believers were COMMANDED to wait and receive the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit. Most believers today ignore this command. It is as true today as it was for those first believers. Next, most believers today have NO IDEA the difference between the Holy Spirit "within" and the Holy Spirit "upon." Yet, Luke made this distinction over and over again in the book of Acts.

Now back to our topic. The best way to activate the Holy Spirit as our teacher is to read a passage of scripture over maybe 50 times, NOT TRYING to understand it - just reading it over and over, then meditate on it day and night, while AT THE SAME TIME praying in the Holy Spirit. There is the catch: most believers cannot pray in the Holy Spirit [in tongues] because they have BYPASSED Acts 1 & 2. Praying in the spirit is the MISSING LINK in activating the Holy Spirit as the personal teacher.

There is a reason Paul received more revelation knowledge that the rest of the apostles of the first generation of the church: it is written that Paul praying in tongues "more than you all." Praying in tongues, in a person's individual prayer language is truly a "revelation" gift. It is the doorway through which God reveals knowledge to us. Of course some people receive true revelations from God without praying in tongues, but God designed our prayer language as a revelation gift. The more anyone prays in the Spirit, the more they will hear the voice of God.

Did you notice how SURE Paul was of his revelations? He did not at first go up to Jerusalem and confer with those who were "somewhat" there among the brethren; no, he went straight out and began to teach his revelations. Neither did he "test the spirit." He KNEW it was God speaking to Him.

99 percent of the time [or 100%], when God speaks to us, He speaks to our SPIRIT man. There is a connection from our spirit to our mind that He uses. The truth is, it is this VERY SAME connection that the Holy Spirit uses to give the utterance in tongues. People can learn to listen at that very place for the still small voice or even a loud voice of God. NO DEVIL or demon can speak from our spirit, if we are born again. If a demon speaks, it comes from outside. The bible says very clearly "my sheep know my voice." We CAN know His voice. But this is VERY DIFFICULT for those that do not pray in tongues.

I'm just saying........anyone can either believe this or deny it. I have experienced it over and over again. I know it is truth.

LAMAD

 

[shturt678s]

The following parody was done by skydiver626, who has several excellent videos on YouTube exposing the false pretrib doctrine. His name is Steven Straub.

Straub is a former pretribber, who has written a book by the title of "Changed" that is available online.

The video is only a few minutes long. It will be worth your time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=949q5fnTh4A

Kickstarted an old man's day, ie, thank you again

Old Jack

 

[Danoh]

Brother Danoh,

Your interpretation of Romans 11:26 comes from the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Manuel Lacunza. It is the original source of Dispensational Theology. The one who always comments about others using "books based" knowledge has no idea how his interpretation started with a Jesuit book.

Below is the perversion from page 349 of Lacunza's book.

"Jerusalem, saith Christ, shall be trodden down of the nations until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled; that is, until the end of the world, or some short while before. When? When Antichrist, king and Messiah of the Jews, and universal monarch of the whole world, shall build anew that city, and plant in it the court of his universal empire. The blindness of Israel, saith the apostle, must endure until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. When this fulness hath entered in, or the time of the nations are concluded, then all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, that is, (continue the interpreters) Israel shall be saved, a little while before the end of the world, after the death of their false Messiah. Oh that it were possible entirely to close this door or aperture, and take away for ever this ordinary escape! What good fruits might not thence result to the true and plain understanding of so many and such weighty prophecies."

Stam had the same thing in his book by using the word "then" instead of "so".

It is taking the word "so" which is an adverb of manner and changing it to "then" which is an adverb of time.

Paul had just finished explaining that all of the descendants of Jacob were not to be part of Israel of the promise.


Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(All of Jacob's descendants are not included in Israel of the Promise.)

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(Being a descendant of Jacob does not make one a child of God.)


Below is the verse found in God's Word.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

("so" is an adverb of manner indicated by the Greek. It is not an adverb of time.)

G3779
οὕτω
houtō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.


You are then interpreting verse 11:25 to match up with Lacunza's perversion of 11:26.

It is an excellent example of changing and also taking out of context God's Word.

How exactly is it that we are "brothers," BAB?

According to you, we are involved in "a cult," in perversions," in "a false doctrine," and so on.

FACT IS I hold to the passage's word as to manner or means, and not as to time, for we DON'T base it on verse 25.

That link of mine you posted spells this out. It is found on the Dispensational Forum on this site, is titled "Israel's Promised Fulness," and lays out what I base the sense of verse 26's "And so..." on.

But you and yours are out to prove yourselves right. Towards that YOU, ignore,twist, pervert our words.

That link in the Dispensational forum I just mentioned is how I understand the sense of the passage. Anyone else can read Stam's "Things That Differ" - the entire book, not sound bytes taken out of the whole ala BAB's obvious one sided agenda.

I know, time for you to cry foul, on your part, BAB..

 

[BABerean2]

How exactly is it that we are "brothers," BAB?

According to you, we are involved in "a cult," in perversions," in "a false doctrine," and so on.

FACT IS I hold to the passage's word as to manner or means, and not as to time, for we DON'T base it on verse 25.

That link of mine you posted spells this out. It is found on the Dispensational Forum on this site, is titled "Israel's Promised Fulness," and lays out what I base the sense of verse 26's "And so..." on.

But you and yours are out to prove yourselves right. Towards that YOU, ignore,twist, pervert our words.

That link in the Dispensational forum I just mentioned is how I understand the sense of the passage. Anyone else can read Stam's "Things That Differ" - the entire book, not sound bytes taken out of the whole ala BAB's obvious one sided agenda.

I know, time for you to cry foul, on your part, BAB..

It is sad when a debate gets to the point that we cannot speak as Brothers in Christ.

There are some who have used ridicule, and personal attacks on a regular basis on this forum.

I have attempted to speak against the doctrine, but not the person.

I apologize, if I have crossed the line and hurt your feelings.

It looks like we have come to the point when our direct conversation is finished on this forum.

Thank you for the part of our conversation that has come before this point.

I wish you well in the future, however you will not have to worry about me calling you Brother again on this forum.

 

[Danoh]

You seriously need to examine how you approach understanding other's words. Once again, you completely distorted another's words. I did not say don't call me brother - you read that into my words. I asked how you can use the word "brother" towards those whose words you distort, and you turn around and distort the sense of my question. You really have no business attempting to save anyone from what you distort as our peversion, as you obviously do not know how to get at the sense of another's words.

You accuse others of tooting their own horn and then turn around and post about some event where you prayed such and so.

Go ahead and distort that now - but my point is you need to learn to give other's words the benefit of grace you expect yours be received in.

Your problem has a very simple solution; study out in Scripture how not to take other's words neither out of their intended sense, nor personally.

Again, until you learn how to study these issues objectively - which you DID NOT DO WITH MY SHORT, "Israel's Promise" post - you have no business using the labels you hurl at those you would call "brother."

Til then, you can address me as "brother" all you want, as that is what we are if you have believed Romans 5:8 as sufficient. No problem there - so quit distorting my words on this "brother" issue now, also, just as you did Stam, just as you did my short post.

I'm sure you can do that much if you'll try. In the meantime, take two of these one chill pill, give yourself another hug on me, but most of all, grow up already; emotions have no place in these issues, little brother..

Are we clear now?

 

[shturt678s]

How exactly is it that we are "brothers," BAB?

According to you, we are involved in "a cult," in perversions," in "a false doctrine," and so on.

I even agree to disagree with BAB regarding things even in the essentials of the faith effected through repentance that are more difficult to understand, yet we are brothers in Christ.

The same applies to you my brother although regarding the OP, it's not so damnable as easy to see the error....no sarcasm intended this time. This doesn't mean we're not brothers in Christ for sure. I view my non-modern older Lutheran view as a cult yet unable to find error till today.

FACT IS I hold to the passage's word as to manner or means, and not as to time, for we DON'T base it on verse 25.

That link of mine you posted spells this out. It is found on the Dispensational Forum on this site, is titled "Israel's Promised Fulness," and lays out what I base the sense of verse 26's "And so..." on.

But you and yours are out to prove yourselves right. Towards that YOU, ignore,twist, pervert our words.

That link in the Dispensational forum I just mentioned is how I understand the sense of the passage. Anyone else can read Stam's "Things That Differ" - the entire book, not sound bytes taken out of the whole ala BAB's obvious one sided agenda.

I know, time for you to cry foul, on your part, BAB..

Old Jack that has an intense agape for the remnant spiritual Israel and the forthcoming "rapture" = "wrath" + "preliminary judgments of wrath pouring out today."

Old Jack trying not to 'foul' things up anymore...repentance

 

[shturt678s]

You seriously need to examine how you approach understanding other's words. Once again, you completely distorted another's words. I did not say don't call me brother - you read that into my words. I asked how you can use the word "brother" towards those whose words you distort, and you turn around and distort the sense of my question. You really have no business attempting to save anyone from what you distort as our peversion, as you obviously do not know how to get at the sense of another's words.

You accuse others of tooting their own horn and then turn around and post about some event where you prayed such and so.

Go ahead and distort that now - but my point is you need to learn to give other's words the benefit of grace you expect yours be received in.

Your problem has a very simple solution; study out in Scripture how not to take other's words neither out of their intended sense, nor personally.

Again, until you learn how to study these issues objectively - which you DID NOT DO WITH MY SHORT, "Israel's Promise" post - you have no business using the labels you hurl at those you would call "brother."

Til then, you can address me as "brother" all you want, as that is what we are if you have believed Romans 5:8 as sufficient. No problem there - so quit distorting my words on this "brother" issue now, also, just as you did Stam, just as you did my short post.

I'm sure you can do that much if you'll try. In the meantime, take two of these one chill pill, give yourself another hug on me, but most of all, grow up already; emotions have no place in these issues, little brother..

Are we clear now?

Although BAB needs no defense, all I could see his posts doing is uncomfortably and inconveniently executing Jn.8:51. Emotions my brother?

I would agape to pick up the ball where BAB left off and receive the same blessings, ie, I've been coming up short lately.

Old Jack's opinion

Not clear at all?

You're o.k. brother Donoh in my book for sure as worked with you previously of course and you're still o.k.

 

[Rev20]

Sure there is. There's many but you won't see it if you commingling passages from different scriptures to form one conclusion. I'll show you below what you're doing.

And Matthew 1:1 does not mean only the generation that Christ lived in. If so, are you telling me Abraham and David also lives during the time of Christ? Matthew chapter 1 is about the genealogy from the time of Abraham down to Christ.

It says the "generation of Jesus Christ, son of … " LOL!
.

Why are you combining verses 5-6 with verse 22-23. They are two different subjects. From verse 5 to 15 is one subject. At verse 16, see how some translations starts with a new title to separate one subject from another?

You can't takes one scripture and commingle it with another and think that's what the bible meant.

That is really funny, coming from a futurist. How about this:

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. And when ye come into an house, salute it. And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me." -- Matt 10:1-40​

Is that enough context? All of those instructions were to His disciples for their mission to gather the lost sheep. Your claim of a "verse 16 split" has no biblical foundation (NONE!) I surmise someone manufactured that "split" (e.g., added their own words to the scripture, such as in the NKJV) because the passage, as written and in context, contradicts their futurist agenda. I have heard all this misinterpretation before, and it sounds just as silly now as I did the first time I heard it.
.

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Matt 16:27-28​

I know this scripture pretty well. What you did here was place a comma between verse 27 and 28 making it appear they are as one. They are two different topics and separated by a period. Look at the end verse 27, there's a period at the end of every translations below. NO comma!

That is my quote above, in italics, exactly AS I posted it, with a period at the end of verse 27. Maybe you are confused about where the verses begin and end. For clarity I will repost in this manner:

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.​

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.​

And this is what verse 28 is about. right there at verse 2-3 is what Christ meant "till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." They saw the glory of Christ with Moses and Elijah appearing before them.

This is an important scripture for the Jews in Israel during the tribulation after they witnessed the 2 witnesses. Some or all will not die till they see Moses and Elijah preaching the Gospel of Grace. If they reject the words from the prophet and the law and continue to deny Christ they will be judged and condemn in the 2nd half of the tribulation. Most of Israel will not die till they witness Moses and Elijah during the tribulation is what this is about.

Matthew 16:28-17:3 ()
28) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
1) And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2) And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3) And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Two witnesses? Why do you have to add your words to the Holy Scripture? What is your purpose? There is not a whisper about the identity of the two witnesses anywhere in the Holy Scripture?

Your notion that Christ came in his kingdom at the transfiguration is another gross misinterpretation, again manufactured by adding words to the scripture. These are those consecutive passages from Young's Literal Translation:

"`For, the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of his Father, with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work. Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'" -- Matt 16:27-28 YLT​

"And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, and James, and John his brother, and doth bring them up to a high mount by themselves, and he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his garments did become white as the light, and lo, appear to them did Moses and Elijah, talking together with him." -- Matt 17:1-3 YLT​

Think about it: you are claiming that Christ came in his kingdom, to reign, during the transfiguration. That is one of the best examples of the extreme measures futurists must take to make their agenda fit the Holy Scriptures.

Why not simply read them as if they are normal English? That was the purpose of the translation. That is what the English versions of the New Testament are: the Word of God--the Gospel--the New Covenant-- translated into the English Language from the Greek.
.

This scripture is totally irrelevant of what we're talking about. If you're trying to tell me Luke 23:28-30 is your idea of Rev 6:16, now I would start questioning your understanding of prophecy because they are clearly not the same event.

I don't believe I mentioned Rev 6:16; but you certainly don't know what Revelation 6:16 means, nor does anyone else. That explains why there are a zillion, brightly illustrated books on the Revelation, cluttering the shelves of "Christian" book stores everywhere, each book claiming it contains the key to the interpretation of the Revelation. Vivid imaginations are BIG Business, but they are not scripture.


One thing we do know: Luke 23:28-30 was fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem, and the children of those women bore the brunt of the wrath of the Lamb of God. That is history.
.

We already went through this yesterday with Matthew 23 & 24. I explained and showed you the two passages on the generation for the people living during the time of Christ time and the generation for those of us today. Two different generations of 70 years before tribulation.

You're doing the same thing again but with Luke's version of woe to the Pharisees before 70 AD and the Olivet Discourse reflecting the our current time.

It doesn't matter who's version of the Olivet Discourse you use, we already proved yesterday the difference with the generation in Christ's time in Matthew 23 compared to the generation of our time in Matthew 24. Both scriptures above are of current time, not 2000 years ago.

Your post proved nothing, except you have an agenda. Jesus spent most of his ministry warning Jerusalem about its pending doom, beginning with John the Baptist:

"But when [John] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" -- Matt 3:7​

There is that nasty word "wrath" again. Was John warning them to flee the wrath that is to come 2000 years later, or was John warning them to flee the horrific wrath of the Lord that was coming within their generation upon the cities of Jerusalem and Judaea?

There are many good books that detail the horrors of the destruction of Jerusalem. Some good background can be found in the "Wars of the Jews" by Flavius Josephus. The works of Tacitus are also good.
.

I'm familiar with Matthew 25:31 also. It's not exactly as it sounds like because He has not returned to earth yet in that verse. I just ask you trust me on this, I'll explain it another time because I'm not a postmilliennialist or a preterist so i won't comment too much here.

I will trust what you write when you quit adding words to the scripture.
.

Will just say it's at the time when He's coming in power and great glory judging the world. He sits in heaven, He will sit on earth too, He has more than one throne. He's King and a king always sits on his throne. He will sit on His throne as He judges too when He comes with power and great glory.

But out of respect, He will be standing when He raptures the church (bride) as He accepts us unto Him.

I hope you realize that there is not a single verse in the New Testament that states that Christ will ever walk on the earth again.


.

 

[Rev20]

That is clearly not what Paul said in all of 1 Cor 15. If Christ already came, you will have to prove the rapture of the Church already happen because before Christ reigns on earth till all enemies are destroy, He will rapture us first as mentioned in verse 23.

There is no such thing as the "rapture of the church". There was a gathering of Christ's Elect about the time of the destruction of Jerusalem, during the generation of the disciples, as prophesied by Jesus Christ.

"And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." -- Mark 1:15​

"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." -- Luke 16:16​

"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily." -- Luke 18:7-8​

We also know it happened in that generation because of the plain words of his servants and apostles. For example, John the Baptist:

"And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." -- Matt 3:2​

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" -- Matt 3:7​

"And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." -- Luke 3:9​

This is Peter:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." -- Acts 2:38-40 KJ​

"Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," -- 1Pet 1:20​

"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer." -- 1Pet 4:7​

This is Paul:

"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light." -- Rom 13:11-12​

"But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not; And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away." -- 1Cor 7:29-31​

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." -- 1Cor 15:51-52​

"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light." -- Rom 13:11-12​

"For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." -- 1Th 1:9-10​

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." -- 1Th 4:17​

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." -- 2Th 2:1-2​

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" -- Heb 1:1-2​

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." -- Heb 9:26​

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." -- Heb 10:25​

"For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry." -- Heb 10:36-37​

James:

"Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door." -- Jas 5:8-9​

John:

"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." -- 1Joh 2:17-18​

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:" -- Rev 1:1​

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." -- Rev 1:3​

"And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand." -- Rev 22:10​

Notice the present and near tense in all those verses. They were all expecting Christ to come within their generation.

There will not be another coming of the Lord until the final judgement. We know this because of what David and Peter said:

"This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool." -- Acts 2:32-35 KJV​

Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father until all his enemies are destroyed. The last enemy destroyed is death:

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." -- 1Cor 15:25-26 KJV​

And that occurs at the final judgement.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." -- Rev 20:14 KJV​

.

 

[Riberra]

Well it doesn't look as organize as how I like it to appear but at least it worked. So Riberra, thank you.

You're welcome.

I'll write up a new post of what I wrote to you tomorrow

Still waiting for it...

but first look at what I wrote above and you even underlined a portion of what I wrote.

Now here's my question to you. "Are you certain you're reading what I wrote correctly?"

Read it several times if you have to.

This is from the bottom of Post #55 on this thread http://www.christianforums.com/t7842211-6/

So leave me out of that conversation because the rapture will NOT happen before Sept 18, 2015.

I have mistakenly taken your reference of Sept 18 2015 as being the date of the last tetrad red Moon.....

Obviously, you are referring to the time period of the last tetrad red moon of Sept. 28, 2015
and you are associating a prophetic
pre-tribulation rapture event to it. Right?

You are not the only one making that kind of connection
see:
Link
Red Moon Rapture
http://redmoonrapture.com/

So let me slightly rewording my reply in that context:

You know that when the last tetrad red moon come and pass without the pre-tribulation rapture happening you will have put an end to your self appointment as a new age prophet.
Those with eyes to see and ears to hear will fully comprehend that Matthew 24:29-30-31
is the time frame ...for the gathering together (rapture)at Jesus second coming after the tribulation

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...24&version=KJV

 

[Danoh]

Rev20, your post 556 is one heck of a tangled twisting of passages. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand" refers to Daniel 2:44, which Peter in Acts 3 aserted was yet future, as did Paul in 2 Thess. 2.

I swear, you guys are like children playing under a sink. Who: finding themselves thirsty, but yet unable to DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THINGS THAT DIFFER as to liquids, assume "I am thirsty, water quenches thirst, water is a liquid, this bottle has liquid in it".... gulp, gulp, gulp.

That is exactly what you do with passages EVERYTIME you quote all those passages... gulp, gulp, gulp...

Spiritual food poisoning is what that is...

 

[ebedmelech]

Looks like a lot of folks in here will waste their money going to see the "Left Behind" movie.

 

[Danoh]

Looks like a lot of folks in here will waste their money going to see the "Left Behind" movie.

That's exactly what that sensationalist Tom foolery is - a waste of money...

 

[Rev20]

Rev20, your post 556 is one heck of a tangled twisting of passages. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand" refers to Daniel 2:44, which Peter in Acts 3 aserted was yet future, as did Paul in 2 Thess. 2.

Why is it that you rarely quote scripture, Danoh? Is it because you don’t understand it, or you simply don't believe it?

John the Baptist said this:

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." -- Mark 1:15​

I believe him. I believe every word he said. I certainly hope you do, too, Danoh.


These are other quotes on the Kingdom of God/Heaven (which is the same thing) in the time period near the beginning of Christ's ministry:

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight." -- Matt 3:1-3​

"Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee . . . From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." -- Matt 4:17​

"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." -- Mark 1:14-15​

What does it mean that the "time is fulfilled?" I doubt it means 2000 years. But whatever it means, I believe we have established that the kingdom of God and of heaven are the same. Still unconvinced? This is from the Sermon on the Mount:

"And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." -- Matt 5:1-3​

"And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God." -- Luke 6:20​

Later, Jesus sent out his disciples:

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." -- Matt 10:5-8​

What does "at hand" mean?

In the next chapter Jesus stated that the kingdom of heaven existed in the days of John the Baptist:

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." -- Matt 11:12​

But probably the best understanding of the kingdom of God/heaven comes from this parable:

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof." -- Matt 13:31-32​

"And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it." -- Mark 4:30-32​

The kingdom of God/heaven is the Church. It began as seed--the Words of Jesus Christ--and has spread world-wide. Therefore, when Jesus asked us to do this:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness…" -- Matt 6:33​

I believe He means that we should seek His Word and his Holy Spirit, and become a part of his Church and Holy Temple, which is his kingdom.


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