Rapture Before Wrath

Bro in Christ · Aug 18, 2014

Bible2 said:
Are you thinking of the crowned 24 elders (Revelation 4:4)? If so, note that they could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3).

ok lets look at scripture
isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

I see serphims doing this .... But nothing states these 24 worshiped forever

Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).

The 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

We see that you have no idea whats going on ...

here are 5 crowns that the church is promised ....

crown of rejoicing ... 1 thes 2:19, phil 4:1
crown of righteousness ..... 2 tim 4:8
crown of life..... james 1:12 connected to loving brethren
crown of glory .. 1peter 5:4, 2 cor 5:10
incorruptible crown ..... 1 cor 9:25

in rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts ezek 1:5-13,10:10-22and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song,[priestly service 1 pt 2:5,9,rev 1:6 ] saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood [heb 10:19]out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign over the earth. 1 pt 2:9, 2 tim 2:10-12, rev 1:6 , 1 cor 6:2-3, rev 2:26-27, eph 1:6-10

broke down with verses

Bro in Christ · Aug 18, 2014

shturt678s said:
I don't see a change at Rev.4:2, ie, Rev.4:2b, "....And lo, a throne was standing in the heaven, and upon the throne One sitting,.... which is God now, and in light of Rev.3:21, the Lord is sitting in His throne with His Father. The Holy Spirit is down here on earth thus what's the change?

Old Jack that changed after he was "born anew."

btw at Rev.4:2, John remained right where he was yet John, like Paul, "in spirit" was there in heaven. To project Rev. chapters 4-22 off to some future time out of touch with us today is not a good thing.

rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

holy spirit has changed from being on earth to being in heaven ... this is huge

Bro in Christ · Aug 18, 2014

Bible2 said:
That brings to mind the 3 stages of a harvest: firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, which can typify 3 physical resurrections: 1. the past, firstfruits physical resurrection of Jesus only (1 Corinthians 15:20,23); Disagree ... romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

2. the future physical resurrection of the entire church at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and right before the millennium (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6); and then disagree Jews are watching the church is waiting ... reason Jews have to wait for Matt 24 to happen then ,after, then .... the church can be taken in any moment 1 cor 15:51-53

3. the physical resurrection at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).
Agree

shturt678s · Aug 18, 2014

Bro in Christ said:
rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

holy spirit has changed from being on earth to being in heaven ... this is huge

Yes, in Rev.4:5, denotes God the Holy Spirit before the Throne in heaven. Now we just have to contextually determine why before the Throne? Rev.1:4b, "seven spirits," seven lamps of fire burning before the Throne symbolize the Holy Spirit through whom God and Christ rule.

Taken with Rev.5:6, the Holy Spirit was sent forth into all the earth to convict the whole earth till today my brother.

Old Jack just thinking out loud again.

n2thelight · Aug 18, 2014

iamlamad said:
You are STILL missing it. Jesus told us there will be days of GREAT TRIBULATION worse than any time before or after. It is these special days of GT that God will allow us to escape from. They will come during the same time God will be pouring out His wrath, and we cannot be here for that, for God will not set an appointment for us with His wrath; rather, He will pull His Bride out of this world. As I said, you need to camp out on Luk. 21:36

Yes He did,and nowhere does scripture say we shall escape tribulation,regardless of how great.....And were not the Israelites around when God poured out His wrath against the Egyptians?

Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

We are to ask for wisdom to our Heavenly Father's Word, and His guidance daily so we don't fall into those traps and snares of these end times. So lets go into the Greek text to get a better view of what this verse is saying. Why do you stand before the Son of man? You stand there for judgment. Pray that you will have the wisdom to stand against Satan, so by your words and actions you will stand there undefiled and condemned by our Lord. Pray that you will be the one to hear Him say, Well done My good and faithful servant, enter into the gates of heaven. Many will stand before Christ in shame, and Jesus will say to them, "Get away from me, I know you not."

The subject for this entire hour of temptation is being deceived. Do you consider it a blessing when you are not deceived, or does it make any difference to you? the purpose of this chapter is to keep you from being deceived by those that come in Christ's name peddling their false doctrines and traditions that go against God's Word. So if Satan says that he is Christ, and your pastor and denomination tell you that the man in Jerusalem is Christ, and Satan does and says the things you expect Christ to do, will you follow your pastor and bow to that fake? That is the test and trial for this time. Can you be tempted when your family, your church, your friends tell you Satan is Christ, and to top it all off, when you see supernatural acts happening right before your eyes? Jesus is telling you to expect it.

II Thessalonians 2:1, 2 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

Paul is telling you to not be taken in by any means, and they will use every trick in the book to get you to join them.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,"

Did you get that? Before Jesus comes, there will be a massive falling away , and Satan, who is the man of sin, also called the son of perdition, will actually sit in the his temple in Jerusalem, and the entire world will believe it.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

It is Satan who opposeth and exalteth himself above our Heavenly Father. Satan will demand that you worship him, and he will sit in his temple in Jerusalem and do and say the things to try and make you believe it. He will try to appear as you think Jesus ought to appear. I hope that in that day when Satan arrives, instead of being tempted in worshipping him, that you would find him the abomination that he is. That is why you will have your gospel armor on and in place to make a stand and be ready for those spiritual battles.

Some people are so biblically illiterate that they will try to tell you that this 36th verse is all about the rapture theory. But it doesn't say that, but the Greek is very specific, "That you stand before Christ at the judgment." You stand before Christ, after these things have come to pass. Then you will be judged by what you did while Satan was in the temple pretending to be God. Did you go to Satan and bow to him, or did you stand your ground? Be prepared to speak up when their lies and deceit are spoken to you. So now stop and think for a moment, why do you put your gospel armor on in the first place? You put on the gospel armor for the sole purpose of making a stand and defending yourself from those fiery darts of Satan's lies. Take the time an study Ephesians 6:10-20. Jesus is telling you to ask Father, pray for the wisdom so that you can be accountable on that day of Jesus' return.

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Complete nonsense. There is not one shred of biblical proof for this. Second, there IS scripture of the church through which the Holy Spirit works being "taken out of the way." Why not believe what is written, instead of coming up with some theory that is not scriptural?

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Not nonsense at all,your proof is in Rev 12

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

Revelation 12:8 "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Now why would they need to overcome if they're not going to be here???

Is'nt that ovious as to who's holding back the man of sin?If not try this one...

Daniel 12:1 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

"That time" is at Satan's end. Michael the archangel will be the one who stands for us. This time of trouble that is coming on earth is worse than this earth has ever seen. That includes Noah's flood, and the total destruction that ended the first earth age. Jesus talks about this in Mark 13:19-22.

It is at the time of this complete devastation that Michael will deliver God's people to the true messiah. That is, all the people that are written in the book, "Lamb's Book of Life". Read Revelation 20:4-5 for an understanding of what will happen at this time. If you accepted the seal of Satan, and fell for his lies, no doubt is left as to your future from this point of time.

Now where is your scripture that says the Church is removed?

Paul came up with a different meaning for the Greek Apostasia. It is a compound word. Have you looked up the two words that this word comes from and see what they mean?

Your preconceived glasses are extrememly thick: it is a wonder you can see at all.

Did you just not notice that the Beast was thrown into the lake of fire in one place, then LATER Satan was bound and MUCH later was himself cast into the lake of fire? Do you imagine he crawled out of the lake of fire? How do you come up with such silliness? They are TWO separate beings. Did you just totally MISS this verse?

Rev. 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

LAMAD

Paul changes meanings to words now,wow!!!!

As for the Beast being the same as satan also the false prophet,I'll explain that to ya later.....

In the mean time will you show me the verse where it says the Church gets taken somewhere,you keep talking about it,but Ive yet to see your scriptual support..........

Danoh · Aug 19, 2014

Bro In Christ, thanks for continually proving, as Biblewriter also often does, may the Lord find him well these days, thanks for continually proving that there is more to the "Dispensationalism" than just the parroting and reasoning of such as a Thomas Ice, and company - him and his "compound word" notions

That's what one is forced into when the holes in one's half-informed bias comes up missing that other half that might give them an answer not requiring one to have to reasoned one's own notions into a passage.

I realize you believe that the Body of Christ began at Pentecost, rather than, as we of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism assert: with Paul.

That is exactly why there are such gaping holes in your assertion that the Spirit will NOT be here after the Body's Pre-Trib Rapture.

Never mind that the Spirit, as did John the Baptist, in Matthew 3, preaches Israel's last days Tribulation and return of Christ to that nation through Peter, in Acts 2 and 3, just as the Lord had also related to Peter in Matthew 10.

Never mind the holes in your arguement; you can always find "compound word," your fellow Replacementists on the other side of both your "one gospel" view you each share a different slice of, never mind they cannot but see holes in your arguments, neither of you able to solve for the other's.

For each your refusal to at least consider that perhaps the Body is not the "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" result you both make it out to be - where Israel's "slumber" found them awakening to find themselves the "host" of "the Body," lol

Never mind, that Joel prophesied of Israel's last days, and the Spirit's presence during same...

Never mind that... oh what's the use - your just going to reason away these Mid-Acts Dispensational reasonings via your Acts Two Dispensational tradition...

Oh, well, reason it away, B.I.C. - you're still - COMPLETE IN HIM!!!

iamlamad · Aug 19, 2014

Bro in Christ said:
rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

holy spirit has changed from being on earth to being in heaven ... this is huge

Good point, but you have it backwards: this is BEFORE He is send down. He is sent down the moment Jesus ascended, in chapter 5. This part of this vision was a peek into the past for John. John was looking back to about 32 AD.

As soon as Jesus ascended, the Holy Spirit was sent down. This is the intent of the Author in this passage. I know because He told me.

LAMAD

iamlamad · Aug 19, 2014

Danoh said:
Bro In Christ, thanks for continually proving, as Biblewriter also often does, may the Lord find him well these days, thanks for continually proving that there is more to the "Dispensationalism" than just the parroting and reasoning of such as a Thomas Ice, and company - him and his "compound word" notions

That's what one is forced into when the holes in one's half-informed bias comes up missing that other half that might give them an answer not requiring one to have to reasoned one's own notions into a passage.

I realize you believe that the Body of Christ began at Pentecost, rather than, as we of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism assert: with Paul.

That is exactly why there are such gaping holes in your assertion that the Spirit will NOT be here after the Body's Pre-Trib Rapture.

Never mind that the Spirit, as did John the Baptist, in Matthew 3, preaches Israel's last days Tribulation and return of Christ to that nation through Peter, in Acts 2 and 3, just as the Lord had also related to Peter in Matthew 10.

Never mind the holes in your arguement; you can always find "compound word," your fellow Replacementists on the other side of both your "one gospel" view you each share a different slice of, never mind they cannot but see holes in your arguments, neither of you able to solve for the other's.

For each your refusal to at least consider that perhaps the Body is not the "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" result you both make it out to be - where Israel's "slumber" found them awakening to find themselves the "host" of "the Body," lol

Never mind, that Joel prophesied of Israel's last days, and the Spirit's presence during same...

Never mind that... oh what's the use - your just going to reason away these Mid-Acts Dispensational reasonings via your Acts Two Dispensational tradition...

Oh, well, reason it away, B.I.C. - you're still - COMPLETE IN HIM!!!

Are you saying that the 120 in the upper room did not become a part of the body of Christ the moment Jesus breathed on them and said "receive the Holy Spirit?" If this is what you are saying, I think you must prove it by clear and plain scripture.

LAMAD

iamlamad · Aug 19, 2014

n2thelight said:
Paul changes meanings to words now,wow!!!!

As for the Beast being the same as satan also the false prophet,I'll explain that to ya later.....

In the mean time will you show me the verse where it says the Church gets taken somewhere,you keep talking about it,but Ive yet to see your scriptual support..........

It should be obvious that Paul put two words together in "apostasia" and those two words together can certainly mean a part of some whole "taken out of the way." He did not change anything. We can know his intended meaning by his context.

Did you EVER read John 14? Did you ever hear of the typical Jewish wedding of the time?

Don't bother explaining; your explanations read like fiction.

LAMAD

n2thelight · Aug 19, 2014

iamlamad said:
It should be obvious that Paul put two words together in "apostasia" and those two words together can certainly mean a part of some whole "taken out of the way." He did not change anything. We can know his intended meaning by his context.

Did you EVER read John 14? Did you ever hear of the typical Jewish wedding of the time?

Don't bother explaining; your explanations read like fiction.

LAMAD

Simple question......What part of the below verses don't you all understand

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

How can you say before when Christ says after????

Danoh · Aug 19, 2014

iamlamad said:
Are you saying that the 120 in the upper room did not become a part of the body of Christ the moment Jesus breathed on them and said "receive the Holy Spirit?" If this is what you are saying, I think you must prove it by clear and plain scripture.

LAMAD

Please don't take this wrong... Its from the Mid-Acts Dispensational Perspective [the Body began with its first Body member: Paul, saved in Acts 9, after God concluded Israel, and Paul, in Uncircumcision, Acts 7:51 in light of Matt. 12:30-32; Rom. 3:9; 11:32; Gal.3:22; 1 Tim. 1:11-16].

The Body was not prophesied, Col. 1.

Matt. 3 asserts the Circumcision's Spirit baptism was by Christ, just asserted. Israel's prophets, like Joel, for example, prophesied their Spirit baptism.

While, Paul, who laid the foundation the Body is based on, the Mystery, 1 Cor. 2 and 3, asserts that the Spirit is the one who baptizes us into the Body, 1 Cor. 12.

Lots and lots of distinctions between that Pentecost assembly and the Body...

Bible2 · Aug 20, 2014

iamlamad said in post 149:

Did you EVER read John 14?

Note that there is no pre-tribulation idea in John 14:3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation rapture view can't claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons that Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

iamlamad · Aug 20, 2014

n2thelight said:
Simple question......What part of the below verses don't you all understand

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

How can you say before when Christ says after????

OF COURSE He comes after WITH His bride. But they get to heaven BEFORE at His pretrib coming.

LAMAD

iamlamad · Aug 20, 2014

Danoh said:
Please don't take this wrong... Its from the Mid-Acts Dispensational Perspective [the Body began with its first Body member: Paul, saved in Acts 9, after God concluded Israel, and Paul, in Uncircumcision, Acts 7:51 in light of Matt. 12:30-32; Rom. 3:9; 11:32; Gal.3:22; 1 Tim. 1:11-16].

The Body was not prophesied, Col. 1.

Matt. 3 asserts the Circumcision's Spirit baptism was by Christ, just asserted. Israel's prophets, like Joel, for example, prophesied their Spirit baptism.

While, Paul, who laid the foundation the Body is based on, the Mystery, 1 Cor. 2 and 3, asserts that the Spirit is the one who baptizes us into the Body, 1 Cor. 12.

Lots and lots of distinctions between that Pentecost assembly and the Body...

The Most important thing; both groups were born again, making both members of the body of Christ.

Paul just brought to light what was already true.

LAMAD

n2thelight · Aug 20, 2014

iamlamad said:
OF COURSE He comes after WITH His bride. But they get to heaven BEFORE at His pretrib coming.

LAMAD

Soooo Math 24 was written to whom????

appleofhiseye · Aug 20, 2014

I have a quick question for the OP, The coming wrath is from God? and not necessarily the persecutions now being done to the church?
I certainly want to escape the coming wrath of God.

Riberra · Aug 20, 2014

appleofhiseye said:
I have a quick question for the OP, The coming wrath is from God? and not necessarily the persecutions now being done to the church?
I certainly want to escape the coming wrath of God.

The wrath of God will not be poured against Christ's believers (Christians) .Like the ten plagues of Egypt were not poured against God's people...

Exodus 8:22-23
22 And in that day I will set apart the land of Goshen, in which My people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there, in order that you may know that I am the Lord in the midst of the land. 23 I will make a difference[between My people and your people.

... so you don't have to fear God's wrath.Satan's wrath however is another matter who will be directed against Christians during the Great Tribulation when the Antichrist will have received full power by a treaty which he will sign with many nations (United Nations) and Israel.

Bible2 · Aug 20, 2014

iamlamad said in post 153:

OF COURSE He comes after WITH His bride.

Note that Jesus' coming FOR his bride and WITH his bride will occur at the same 2nd coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

iamlamad said in post 153:

But they get to heaven BEFORE at His pretrib coming.

Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

iamlamad said in post 153:

But they get to heaven BEFORE at His pretrib coming.

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

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As an analogy of this mental preparation, imagine that some kids were at a summer camp, and their counselor told them: "Tomorrow, there is going to be a long, hard hike". The kids walked away and started talking among themselves. One of them said: "Well, he didn't say that we all have to go on the hike, right?" And a second kid said: "And he didn't say that we all have to go the whole distance". But a third kid said: "I'm pretty sure that he meant the hike's whole distance is for all of us. He didn't say that there is going to be a long, hard hike for only some of us, and a day of goofing off, or only a short, easy hike for others of us". But the first kid answered: "Nah, we don't have to go on that hike. I'm going fishing tomorrow". And the second kid answered: "We all don't have to go the whole distance". But the third kid answered: "Don't be so sure, you two. I'm going to bed early, so I'll be all fresh and ready for the whole distance of the hike".

The next day at the morning camp meeting the first kid brought his fishing pole and was all set for a day of fishing. But the third kid brought his sturdy hiking boots and a big canteen of water, and was all mentally prepared for a long day of hard hiking. The counselor then told the kids: "Okay, in a few minutes, we're all going to start on the hike I told you about, so make sure that you've got everything you need". The first kid felt sick to his stomach when he heard that. He dropped his fishing pole and sat down on the ground and started crying like a baby. He just couldn't imagine starting on a long, hard hike after he'd been all set for a day of just sitting around fishing. But he was forced to go on the whole hike anyway, and this made him and the second kid (who thought that he wouldn't have to go the whole distance) so mad at the counselor that they grumbled against him to the other kids during the hike, cursing him out as a cruel taskmaster (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21).

But the third kid took the whole hike in stride (cf. Revelation 14:12, Revelation 13:10), and stuck up for the counselor the whole time, even though the third kid suffered awfully from blisters during the hike. The counselor, even though he was at the head of the hiking line, could overhear what the kids said behind him. And after the hike was over, he made sure to reward the third kid by giving him as a gift the counselor's own fishing pole, and by making sure that the third kid was assigned day after day to only the most enviable camp duties, like getting to build and light the nightly campfire, and getting to make the evening camp announcements over the camp's PA system. But the counselor made sure to assign the first and second kids to the worst kitchen- and latrine-cleaning duties day after day.

Bible2 · Aug 20, 2014

n2thelight said in post 155:

Soooo Math 24 was written to whom????

To the church. For Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. And the saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jewish or Gentile), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

n2thelight · Aug 20, 2014

n2thelight said in post 155:

Soooo Math 24 was written to whom????

Bible2

To the church. For Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. And the saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jewish or Gentile), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

I know this,you know this,just wanted TPeterY to answer.....

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