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Clare73

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No it was not.
That is what the Levitical sacrificial system was all about. . .substitution of the sacrifice's death for the sinner's death, as it was on Calvary.

Where is Xeno?

You do Catholic theology no favor.
It was the shedding of the precious blood of Christ for the salvation of humanity; as a lamb's shed blood was sufficient to turn away the angel of death at the exodus, and this was a type of the shed blood of Christ, so it is with Christ's shed blood, it cleanses a person from sins and redeems souls.
The lamb's blood was not for all people there, it was only for the people of God.
 
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Clare73

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Oh please! Not a return to predestination debate!
What does predestination have to do with it?

No, simply a return to demonstrated Biblical meanings. . .
Please, no Limited Atonement propaganda.
Someone doesn't want Scripture to get in the way. . .
Not a good look. . .falls somewhat short of dealing with the Biblical fact that the efficaciousness of the OT sacrifices were limited to the people of God.

A good Bible study seems warranted here.
 
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timothyu

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Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people.

In everyday matters, redemption meant the release of a person or animal by payment or replacement.

HOWEVER, according to a Jewish encyclopedia, when it came to DIVINE matters, it did not mean payment or replacement, BUT rather it meant liberation from bondage or oppression, including death.

That was the definitions understood of redemption from the Hebrew viewpoint in Jesus' day.
(The Greek meaning was ransom, but notice that conflicts with the notion of liberation.)
 
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Clare73

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Luke 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people.

In everyday matters, redemption meant the release of a person or animal by payment or replacement.

HOWEVER, according to a Jewish encyclopedia, when it came to DIVINE matters, it did not mean payment or replacement, BUT rather it meant liberation from bondage or oppression, including death.
Redeem and ransom both mean "to buy back."
That was the definitions understood of redemption from the Hebrew viewpoint in Jesus' day.
(The Greek meaning was ransom, but notice that conflicts with the notion of liberation.)
Redeem and ransom are both liberation from ownership/captivity.
 
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Clare73

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The Greek meaning was ransom, but notice that conflicts with the notion of liberation. When it came to DIVINE matters, it did not mean payment or replacement but without cost/payment.
???

Ransoming from captivity/ownwership is liberation.
 
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d taylor

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Please read my post 9.
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Who set the payment for man to be restored by into the family of God, God did. God set blood as the payment for man;s sin that separated man from God. But God set that payment knowing that man could not make that payment himself. So God set a payment that only God could pay. Who is God paying his payment to, it can only be God since God set the payment to began with.
 
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d taylor

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The whole world can mean
all men without exception, or
all men without distinction.

When referring to the redeemed, it means all men without distinction.
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The verse is addressing two types of humans, believers and unbelievers. our sins is believers sins and the not for ours only but for the whole world are unbelievers.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The verse is addressing two types of humans, believers and unbelievers. our sins is believers sins and the not for ours only but for the whole world are unbelievers.
I believe that when the only tool one has is a TULIP then everything is a flowerbed ;)
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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It was the shedding of the precious blood of Christ for the salvation of humanity; as a lamb's shed blood was sufficient to turn away the angel of death at the exodus, and this was a type of the shed blood of Christ, so it is with Christ's shed blood, it cleanses a person from sins and redeems souls.
You basically desribed the atonment.

Atonment is the way we are made one with God again, after being separated to God by sin. We can also call this reconciliation.

It's debt that is fully paid and the debt fully removed. We are sinners and we are in debt, but Christ purchased us by His precious blood, He atoned for us. The Moses books are full of atonement, and that's where the word comes from.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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No, you thinking that because all sin has been paid for, so no one goes to hell. Shows you do not understand why a person ends up in the lake of fire. It is not because of their sin.
It is exactly because of sin why people go to hell. Sin is a separation from God and separation from God means death.

That's why every sinner is spiritually dead.

God is good and because He is good, He must punish all the evil. Sin is rebellion and sin must be punished.

That's why satan and all the angels that rebelled against God will go to gehenna. And everyone who joins satan in rebellion against God, will end up there.

Christ came to save His chosed people, His bride. Do you think God would leave salvation up to us?

Romans 8 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

In regard to unlimited atonment...
It teaches that on the cross, Jesus paid the debt of sin for everyone because He loves everyone and He wants everyone to be saved. That’s pretty much the common evangelical view. Jesus died for everybody. He paid the price for the sins of everybody. And all we have to do is tell sinners that He loves them so much that He paid the price and He wants them to be saved, and all they have to do is respond.

Now if that is true, then on the cross Jesus accomplished a potential salvation, not an actual one. That is, sinners have all had their sins atoned for potentially, and it’s not actual until they activate it by their faith. So, what we need to do is to tell sinners that they need to pick up the salvation that’s already been purchased for them. Since Christ died for everybody, everybody therefore can be saved. It’s just a matter of them coming to receive that salvation. And so, our responsibility is to convince people to come and take the salvation that’s been provided for them, to convince them to come and accept the gift.

The fallout of that would be like this. Hell is full of people for whom Christ died. I’ll say it another way. Hell is full of people whose sins were paid for in full on the cross. That’s a little more disturbing when you say it like that, isn’t it? Another way to say it would be that the lake of fire, which burns forever with fire and brimstone, is filled with eternally damned people whose sins Christ fully atoned for on the cross. God’s wrath was satisfied by Christ’s atonement on behalf of those people who will forever stay in hell.

it just sounds strange when you start to kind of pick it apart a little bit, doesn’t it? That Jesus died and paid in full the penalty for the sins of the damned, and died and paid in full the penalty for the sins of the glorified, that Jesus did the same thing for the occupants of hell that He did for the occupants of heaven, and the only difference hinges on the sinner’s choice? That is to say, the death of Jesus Christ, then, is not an actual atonement, it is only a potential atonement. He really did not purchase salvation for anyone in particular. He only removed some kind of barrier to make it possible for sinners to choose to be saved.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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You basically desribed the atonment.

Atonment is the way we are made one with God again, after being separated to God by sin. We can also call this reconciliation.

It's debt that is fully paid and the debt fully removed. We are sinners and we are in debt, but Christ purchased us by His precious blood, He atoned for us. The Moses books are full of atonement, and that's where the word comes from.
No one needs a theory of how the atonement works to receive the benefit of the atonement.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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No one needs a theory of how the atonement works to receive the benefit of the atonement.
You said that Jesus death on the cross was not a substitutionary atonement of sin...and now you say there is no need to know how the atonement works...bit contradictory don't you think?
 
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