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If God created a loaf of raisin bread ex nihilo tomorrow, would you accuse Him of deception?
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Raisin Bread
- Thread starter AV1611VET
- Start date
Depends. Did he use organic grapes? Were they oven dried or open air dried. Did he use whole grain. How about butter, because if he used Margarine, he's got some 'splaining to do.
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MoonLancer
The Moon is a reflection of the MorningStar
if he said he just baked it a few minutes ago and it was frozen solid... well yea of course. Your example is not a very good metaphor for what your trying to attribute it to. Mines much better.
What would forensics discover about this bread? in your example AV? If you can answer this, it really has no place as a metaphor to be attributed to the earth.
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MoonLancer
The Moon is a reflection of the MorningStar
I have an even better example that is more akin to what we find.
What if the Bible said God created raisin bread ex nihilo, but when you investigate you find lots of dirty dishes that appear to have been used to bake the bread. you find anti stick spry an the brad pan, You find flower on the counter, Egg shells in the garbage etc...
This is the problem. Do you believe the Bible that God ex nihiloed the bread, or do you believe all the evidence that it was baked? Why did the bible say it was created ex nihilo when all the evidence shows otherwise? In this example if God really did ex nihilo the bread, its pretty fair to say there was at least some deception going on. Of couse in this example the most likely outcome is that the bible is simply wrong.
What if the Bible said God created raisin bread ex nihilo, but when you investigate you find lots of dirty dishes that appear to have been used to bake the bread. you find anti stick spry an the brad pan, You find flower on the counter, Egg shells in the garbage etc...
This is the problem. Do you believe the Bible that God ex nihiloed the bread, or do you believe all the evidence that it was baked? Why did the bible say it was created ex nihilo when all the evidence shows otherwise? In this example if God really did ex nihilo the bread, its pretty fair to say there was at least some deception going on. Of couse in this example the most likely outcome is that the bible is simply wrong.
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Or better yet, if I could show you that man created god ex nihilo, would you accuse man of deception?
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G
GoSeminoles!
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A delicious homemade raisin bread.
Ingredients:
1 package active dry yeast
1/4 cup warm water
1 cup raisins
1/4 cup soft butter
1/4 cup sugar
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
1/2 cup scalded milk
3 3/4 cups all-purpose flour
2 eggs, beaten
Preparation:
Dissolve yeast in warm water. In a large bowl, combine raisins, butter, sugar, salt, and hot milk; stir to dissolve the sugar. Let mixture cool to lukewarm. Stir in 1 1/2 cups of the flour; beat well. Add yeast mixture and the beaten eggs; mix to blend well. Add enough of the remaining flour to make a soft but stiff dough. Turn out onto a lightly floured surface and knead for about 10 minutes, until dough is smooth and elastic. Place dough in a lightly buttered bowl, turning once to grease the surface. Cover with a clean dish cloth; let stand in a warm place until doubled in bulk, about 1 1/2 hours. Punch dough down and divide into 2 portions. Cover and let rest for 10 minutes. Shape into 2 loaves; place in 2 greased 8x4x3-inch loaf pans. Cover and let rise again for about 45 to 60 minutes, until almost double. Bake at 375° for 25 minutes, placing foil over loaves the last 10 minutes, if loaves are getting too brown. Remove loaves from pans and let cool on racks.
Ingredients:
1 package active dry yeast
1/4 cup warm water
1 cup raisins
1/4 cup soft butter
1/4 cup sugar
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
1/2 cup scalded milk
3 3/4 cups all-purpose flour
2 eggs, beaten
Preparation:
Dissolve yeast in warm water. In a large bowl, combine raisins, butter, sugar, salt, and hot milk; stir to dissolve the sugar. Let mixture cool to lukewarm. Stir in 1 1/2 cups of the flour; beat well. Add yeast mixture and the beaten eggs; mix to blend well. Add enough of the remaining flour to make a soft but stiff dough. Turn out onto a lightly floured surface and knead for about 10 minutes, until dough is smooth and elastic. Place dough in a lightly buttered bowl, turning once to grease the surface. Cover with a clean dish cloth; let stand in a warm place until doubled in bulk, about 1 1/2 hours. Punch dough down and divide into 2 portions. Cover and let rest for 10 minutes. Shape into 2 loaves; place in 2 greased 8x4x3-inch loaf pans. Cover and let rise again for about 45 to 60 minutes, until almost double. Bake at 375° for 25 minutes, placing foil over loaves the last 10 minutes, if loaves are getting too brown. Remove loaves from pans and let cool on racks.
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I really want some raisin bread right now. I would totally believe in God right now if he made me some.
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Matthew 21:22 And all things (i.e. raisin bread), whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
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I dunno. Can you make it ex nihilo with organic California raisins, whole wheat flour and no trans fat?
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If you succeed, I shall follow you to the ends of the loaf (provided you make bread analogies in your scriptures)
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My condo here in Singapore has a bread dispensing machine. Put in coins, get out bread of a dozen varieties, including a very yummy raising bread. I think God creates the bread in the vending machine just for me, as evidence for this I can say I have never seen anyone put bread in it, and I walk by it alot. And I say "just for me" because most of the other people in my Condo are Japanese, and they are not big on Americana bread.
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I would say this is contingent on 2 additional pieces of information:
A. Does the evidence show that the raisin bread is created ex-nihilo? (Yes/No)
B. Is God capable of creating the loaf of raisin bread ex-nihilo in such a way that the evidence suggests that it was created ex-nihilo? (Yes/No)
If A is Yes, then he cannot be accused of deception.
If A is No and B is Yes, then it is deceptive
If both A and B are No, then it is not deceptive, but simply an unfortunate inability of God.
</mysterious delurk>
Call it an experiment to see whether AV1611VET can accept an honest answer.
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No -- the OP declares it.
Creatio ex nihilo leaves no evidence behind.
One minute there's nothing -- the next a loaf of bread.
Nothing spilled, no leftovers, no oven cooling down, no dirty pots and pans, no background radiation, no big bang heard -- nothing.
(With the exception, of course, of an increase in the mass/energy of the universe in what today would be a violation of the conservation law; but that's reading too much into my simple question.)
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Mike Elphick
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Who said? And why do you insist on using a Latin expression when the English "created out of nothing" is perfectly adequate. ('Creatio' always reminds me of Horatio Nelson for some reason).
If it's a proper raisin loaf, then all you need to do is to examine it under a microscope. If it contains (dead) yeast cells, then God used yeast to make it rise — that is evidence it was certainly not created instantly, as anyone who has made bread will testify. It is also evidence that the loaf was not made out of nothing.
That must be "the one he made earlier".
He obviously had an excellent chef and washer-upper! Seriously though, it is only your contention that such was the state of the 'kitchen', but then there was no kitchen — God said "Let there be a raisin loaf" and it was so (and very good too). But this is an important issue in certain types of creationism. These guys demand to know every step and full details of the evolutionary process, and vehemently criticize the same. Yet of any evidence for how God accomplished his creation acts (tools, methods etc.) there is a complete vacuum and utter silence.
I'd say that this vacuum of evidence is a strong indication that creation never happened the way the Bible portrays it. I put it to you AV, all this stuff about 'creation out of nothing' and 'absence of evidence' is a big cop-out you've concocted over the years to overcome this creationist problem.
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