The Return of My Ex Nihilo Challenge

[notyourenemy]

Perhaps, but what about from an outside perspective? If we have an atom that has electrons with a negative charge and protons with a positive charge, they can be in balance, and the atom has an overall neutral charge. The atom behaves electrically neutrally.

Right. The atom is electrically neutral, but the atom is still *there*. The electrons and protons cancel each other's charge, but they don't negate each other's *existence*.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sorry AV, but this doesn't even make sense.

Good!

Mission accomplished!

I can't see how modern day physics applies to an ancient cosmogony.

Nor can I.

Science (modern day or otherwise) doesn't apply to the Creation Week.

 

[Kylie]

Right. The atom is electrically neutral, but the atom is still *there*. The electrons and protons cancel each other's charge, but they don't negate each other's *existence*.

I think you missed my point.

To an outside observer, the atom has no overall charge.

L:ikewise, to an outside observer of our universe, there is zero energy.

 

[notyourenemy]

I think you missed my point.

To an outside observer, the atom has no overall charge.

L:ikewise, to an outside observer of our universe, there is zero energy.

An outside observer can still see that the atom is there.

*My* point is that the atom....or the universe....having no electrical charge doesn't suggest anything ex nihilo.

 

[Perpetual Student]

It is Day One of the Creation Week and God creates Earth ex nihilo (from nothing) by speaking it into existence.

Heretofore the level of mass/energy in the physical universe is zero; since the physical universe didn't exist yet.

Afterwards, the level of mass/energy in the physical universe is now equal to the earth.

Here's my question:

What physical evidence would convince you this happened?

I submit there isn't any.

What say you?

I say that there is indeed no evidence of this creation, because it only happened on paper.

 

[AV1611VET]

I say that there is indeed no evidence of this creation, because it only happened on paper.

That paper that it "happened on" is part of a legal document in God's court.

It's call a Testament.

 

[Kylie]

An outside observer can still see that the atom is there.

*My* point is that the atom....or the universe....having no electrical charge doesn't suggest anything ex nihilo.

Where do you think I said it did?

I'm not in AV's camp here.

 

[notyourenemy]

Where do you think I said it did?

I'm not in AV's camp here.

Could you clarify for me what camp you're in, in case I'm misunderstanding?

 

[Kylie]

Could you clarify for me what camp you're in, in case I'm misunderstanding?

It says it in the little sidebar under my name (you may need to click the little down arrow to see it).

I'm an atheist.

 

[AACJ]

It is Day One of the Creation Week and God creates Earth ex nihilo (from nothing) by speaking it into existence.

Heretofore the level of mass/energy in the physical universe is zero; since the physical universe didn't exist yet.

Afterwards, the level of mass/energy in the physical universe is now equal to the earth.

Here's my question:

What physical evidence would convince you this happened?

I submit there isn't any.

What say you?

HI. I believe you are right that ex nihilo creation--by definition--leaves no physical evidence, since matter, energy, and natural laws were created in the act (Hebrews 11:3). However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. All the data should be considered. The fine-tuning of the universe (Collins 2009), the abrupt origin of life (Meyer 2009), and the moral law (Lewis 1952) all point to a transcendent cause. Your apparent demand for physical evidence presupposes naturalism, which can't even account for its own rational foundations (Plantinga 2011). The Christian worldview explains why physics works--not just how.

References:
Hebrews 11:3: "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
Collins, Robin. The Teleological Argument (2009).
Meyer, Stephen C. Signature in the Cell (2009).
Lewis, C.S. Mere Christianity (1952).
Plantinga, Alvin. Where the Conflict Really Lies (2011).

 

[AV1611VET]

HI. I believe you are right that ex nihilo creation--by definition--leaves no physical evidence, since matter, energy, and natural laws were created in the act (Hebrews 11:3).

Okay.

However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

What evidence specifically?

There was no evidence generated.

All the data should be considered.

What data?

For instance, you have the earth on Day One.

What on earth are you going to study?

Its atoms?

That's all there is to study.

Nothing more.

Its atoms.

No trees, no rocks, no animals -- nothing.

The fine-tuning of the universe (Collins 2009), the abrupt origin of life (Meyer 2009), and the moral law (Lewis 1952) all point to a transcendent cause.

Okay.

Your apparent demand for physical evidence presupposes naturalism,

What???

Some time ago, I came up with this creationism test.

Would you be willing to take it?

If so, here it is:

1. Define Embedded Age.
2. Explain the difference between creatio ex nihilo and creatio ex materia; and give two examples of each.
3. Why is "heaven" singular in Genesis 1, but plural in Genesis 2?
4. Eden in the Bible is known as __________ on a secular map.
5. Put the following in order that they appeared in the universe: whales, stars, trees, sun, land, sea, outer space.
6. What day was Adam created on?
7. Was the universe created a closed system and, if not, what kind of energy did it run off of? if it was created open, what closed it?
8. Describe terra aqua and what kind of water it consisted of and why.
9. Photosynthesis required light from the sun prior to the Fall. true or false?
10. Explain how a 24-hour day could transpire before the sun was created.
11. Explain the difference between "miracles" and "magic."
12. What literary device reconciles Genesis 1 and Genesis 2?
13. When discussing Creationism, why should one never let himself stray from Genesis 1 or 2?
14. What was the first object in the universe that had mass?