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Split Rock

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Like the world would be covered in sedimentary rock, and there would be sea shells everywhere, oh wait, that is what we have.
The world is NOT covered in sedimentary rock and sea shells. This is a gross over-simplification. When Christian geologists started looking at the details (which "Flood Geologists" never do) and tried to determine which layers were layed down by a global flood they assumed occurred in the past, they could not identify any. History of the Collapse of Flood Geology and a Young Earth

The water above did what it was designed to do.

As God finished each portion of the creation He proclaimed it good.

Every part except for the "water above".
It was not proclaimed good because it's purpose was judgement which is never Gods preference.

Do I believe that God preformed acts which I do not understand during the creation week? There is little point in believing in God if I restrict Him to the limits of my own intelligence.

At the same time God uses the physical laws I understand the vast majority of the time.

Duordi
There is also little point in believing that God violated the physical laws he himself created for the universe... and for what purpose? To rid the world of sin, just so it could be filled with sin again. Does that even make sense to you?
 
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CabVet

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Like the world would be covered in sedimentary rock, and there would be sea shells everywhere, oh wait, that is what we have.

And what world exactly are you talking about? It is certainly not planet Earth since here there are many more areas without marine sediments than with.
 
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duordi

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1. Spend your time on sites which have an obvious bias and even better visit sites which have as there purpose for existing hating the group you oppose.
2. Find someone in the enemy group who is easy to make fun of and pick and choose parts of their life which make them look as bad as possible.
3. Don't use a media type which allows a response we would not what it to be fair.
4. Divide everyone into two groups them and us.
5. Assign bad moral motives to the the enemy group because moral motives are the most difficult prove incorrect.
6. Condemn everyone in the enemy group based on your assassination of a single individuals character.
7. Punish or make fun of anyone who dares to say anything positive about the other group.

I am not describing your post.

This was Hitlers strategy to victimize the Jews.
 
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duordi

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The world is NOT covered in sedimentary rock and sea shells.

Really?

earth Facts, information, pictures | Encyclopedia.com articles about earth

"On Earth's surface, sedimentary rocks, such as quartz-rich sandstone or marine limestone, are very common; they cover approximately 70 percent of the surface of our planet in a very thin veneer."

Considering the continents have existed above water for thousands of years that is a good average.

Even commonly held theories have water covering most land masses at one time or another. The only part we disagree on is the timing.

You see the evidence is there. To explain the evidence it was necessary to sink one area at a time and spread it out over a long period while you slide the continents around.

If you add enough variables and you can get any equation to work.
At some point you have to ask yourself why did I have to add so many variables to get this to work?

Duordi
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Really?

earth Facts, information, pictures | Encyclopedia.com articles about earth

"On Earth's surface, sedimentary rocks, such as quartz-rich sandstone or marine limestone, are very common; they cover approximately 70 percent of the surface of our planet in a very thin veneer."

Considering the continents have existed above water for thousands of years that is a good average.

Even commonly held theories have water covering most land masses at one time or another. The only part we disagree on is the timing.

You see the evidence is there. To explain the evidence it was necessary to sink one area at a time and spread it out over a long period while you slide the continents around.

If you add enough variables and you can get any equation to work.
At some point you have to ask yourself why did I have to add so many variables to get this to work?
Hence why most people leave Creationism behind - epicycles upon epicycles, and miracles upon miracles, are required to get it to work.

Besides the sheer non-existence of the required geological evidence (there's no flood layer at the same point all over the world - all flood layers are local), there's the rather telling fact that many civilisations across the world, from Egypt to China to the Americas, continued uninterrupted from long before to long after. The city of Damascus, for instance, has been continually inhabited for 10,000 years - not only does this violate the idea of a global flood, but it also predates the very creation of the universe.

It's epicycles, man, all the way down.
 
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loktai

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Around 70% of the earth's surface is currently underwater - which would explain why you find sedimentary rocks on 70% of the surface much easier, without having to add any variables.

From the same website just before you got the 70% information earth Facts, information, pictures | Encyclopedia.com articles about earth

"A Uniquely Different Planet Although Earth is in some ways a typical rocky planet, several of its most interesting features appear to be unique. For example, a global map of Earth with the ocean water removed shows a very different planet from our neighboring rocky planets. The patterns made by continents, oceans, aligned volcanoes, and linear mountains are the result of the process geologists call plate tectonics."
 
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Split Rock

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Really?

earth Facts, information, pictures | Encyclopedia.com articles about earth

"On Earth's surface, sedimentary rocks, such as quartz-rich sandstone or marine limestone, are very common; they cover approximately 70 percent of the surface of our planet in a very thin veneer."

Considering the continents have existed above water for thousands of years that is a good average.

Even commonly held theories have water covering most land masses at one time or another. The only part we disagree on is the timing.

You see the evidence is there. To explain the evidence it was necessary to sink one area at a time and spread it out over a long period while you slide the continents around.

If you add enough variables and you can get any equation to work.
At some point you have to ask yourself why did I have to add so many variables to get this to work?

Duordi
70% is not "covered." I said it was an oversimplification to say that it was covered by sedimentary rocks and shells and it is an oversimplification. Did you read the link I provided? I noticed you ignored the rest of my post and chose to ignore my point. You are the one ignoring variables to base your statements on a cursory over-simplification of reality. "There's lots of sedimentary rocks, therefore The Flood," is not good enough.
 
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Split Rock

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1. Spend your time on sites which have an obvious bias and even better visit sites which have as there purpose for existing hating the group you oppose.
2. Find someone in the enemy group who is easy to make fun of and pick and choose parts of their life which make them look as bad as possible.
3. Don't use a media type which allows a response we would not what it to be fair.
4. Divide everyone into two groups them and us.
5. Assign bad moral motives to the the enemy group because moral motives are the most difficult prove incorrect.
6. Condemn everyone in the enemy group based on your assassination of a single individuals character.
7. Punish or make fun of anyone who dares to say anything positive about the other group.

I am not describing your post.

This was Hitlers strategy to victimize the Jews.

What is the purpose of this post if not to attempt a Godwin?
 
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RickG

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Like the world would be covered in sedimentary rock, and there would be sea shells everywhere, oh wait, that is what we have.

You seem to be assuming that all sedimentary rock is of marine origin, indeed it is not, nor are there sedimentary rock everywhere.

Well not bad for making great claims with no assumptions or factual basis. Not only that but you were very close, all but eight people died.

My claims are backed in the scientific literature which represents the labors of millions of field studies acquiring physical evidence supported by many independent disciplines of the physical sciences.

That is interesting because some evolutionist think that the Earth had an atmosphere which was possibly twice as dense as today's atmosphere and no mention is made of the planet melting.


Study Reveals Ancient Atmosphere Exerted More Pressure | TopNews United States

Where in that news article does it say anything about evolutionists. If you will notice the age of the fossil rain drops are 2.7 billion years old. The make up of the atmosphere then was quite different form what it is today.

http://wuos.org/content/259/5097/920.full.pdf
http://geoclasses.tamu.edu/atmo/geos489/lecture3/science298_2341.pdf\
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Photochemistry of methane and the formation of hydrocyanic acid (HCN) in the Earth's early atmosphere
http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/25194/1/0000633.pdf
 
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duordi

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May I complement you for reading the references.

You are a Newbie no longer.

We use the same informational data and I think would agree that all land masses have been under water except for some newly formed volcano's or other rare cases.

I disagree with the time scale commonly used and have different base assumptions then what you will commonly find.

With enough variables in the theory any theory can be match to the data so I use a simple rule. The theory with the fewest variables is more likely to be true.

Notice that I used a evolutionary reference which is why you found the quote you liked.

Except in very few cases scientific data is correct.

It is important to know the assumptions behind a theory and before you accept a theory.

This last part was just to help you understand my position.
Who knows, it may help you prove me wrong on something as we continue.
It would not be the first time believe me.

The theory of plate tectonics is a "theory" not a fact. It is important to keep the two separate but it is also important to look at both sides of a topic to make sure you have the best explanation.

I get most of my information from sites that accept evolutionary concepts because they have the most data collected.
This does not necessarily mean I agree with all of their interpretations.

There are specific reasons why the theory of plate tectonics is accepted.

1. The continents seem to fit together.
2. Animals somehow migrated from one continent to another.

The base assumptions are:
1. Mankind did not exist when the animals relocated.
2. Earths history of life happened over millions and millions of years.

Here is an alternate theory.
The base assumptions are:
1. Mankind did exist when the animals relocated and mankind knew how to build boats.
2. Earths history of life happened over thousands of years.
3. The Earth was at one point completely covered with water.

If the continents were underwater at some time and were to float on the mantle rising above sea level then the distance between continents would be a function of how stiff the earth surface was.
A very stiff surface would only allow one continent because the Earths surface could not be bent into a wave shape.

A more flexible earth crust would make a wave of land water land water with approximately the same distances. Of course the Earths crust is not necessarily always the same stiffness but it is similar enough to cause a common minimum ocean width between close continents giving them the appearance they would fit together.

I do not need to cause the continents to have moved together because mankind existed and knew how to build boats.

I am comfortable with my perspective because I do not need to extrapolate into extremely long time durations or move continents around to fit my theory to the data.

Duordi.
 
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mzungu

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It has rained as much as 42 inches in one day in Texas. multiply that by 40 and you get about 140 feet. Of course God could cause it to rain even harder than that. But most of it was from the "fountains", underground aquifers of water, theres miles deep of that down there. The other scenario is that an asteroid contributed to this flood. There is a 160 mile long crater in the Gulf of Mexico that could have been the big one. It could also have thrown the earth off it's axis, changed poles, etc., which is why they've found plant fossils in Antartica. Imagine an asteroid strikes the earth and pushes it causing a surge of water flooding the earth. ???
Asteroids contain very little water in the form of ice. Also the energy release of an asteroid impact that will leave a 160 mile crater will be in the magnitude of millions of nuclear bombs of megaton size. The debris raining back to earth will cause the atmosphere to literally burn as hot as your oven!

If you want to use cartoon physics to prove creationism then be my guest! :doh:
 
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RickG

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The theory of plate tectonics is a "theory" not a fact. It is important to keep the two separate but it is also important to look at both sides of a topic to make sure you have the best explanation.

That is true, however, I ask that you please provide "your" definition or description of the difference from a layman's dictionary definition of a theory and that of what the scientific community defines a theory as; therefore, a "scientific theory". Your post leads me to believe you are uninformed of the differences.

I get most of my information from sites that accept evolutionary concepts because they have the most data collected.
Why would you go to sites that accept evolutionary concepts to obtain information about plate tectonics? Would not sites provided by accredited educational institutions in the area of "Geophysics" and the peer review literature be a better choice. That is information from experts in that particular field, rather than sources outside that field.

This does not necessarily mean I agree with all of their interpretations.
If you source the literature provided by those who work and are experts in the field, you will discover that the only interpretation differences are in a few minute details, not the theory itself.

There are specific reasons why the theory of plate tectonics is accepted.

1. The continents seem to fit together.
2. Animals somehow migrated from one continent to another.

The base assumptions are:
1. Mankind did not exist when the animals relocated.
2. Earths history of life happened over millions and millions of years.
I do not know the source of that information but it in no way describes any reason(s) for accepting plate tectonics.

The continents do seem to fit together, yes. That was the "theory" developed by Alfred Wegener which was not plate tectonics, but rather "Continental Drift". Continental drift was the original theory but was abandoned because it provided little evidence. The only evidence it could provide was as you mentioned, the continents seemed to fit together and it was recognized (observed) that where some of these continents fit together, fossils matched where they seemed to join. No doubt that both of those observations are objective and real, but what Continental drift theory lacks is the "mechanism" or proof of how they drifted.

The theory of plate tectonics actually has its beginnings during and just after world war II. During the war the U.S. Navy begin mapping the Atlantic seafloor to get an idea where German submarines might hide or use it to their advantage. But that is a story within itself.

The idea of animals migrating from one continent to another comes from what I mentioned about fossils. They didn't just migrate, that is where the continents split apart. But again, that is not plate tectonic theory, it is continental drift theory.

Here is an alternate theory.
The base assumptions are:
1. Mankind did exist when the animals relocated and mankind knew how to build boats.
2. Earths history of life happened over thousands of years.
3. The Earth was at one point completely covered with water.
The problem there is that all those assumptions go against the already known and observed physical evidence, not to mention a complete lack of any supporting evidence for your assumptions.

You seem to be ignoring the age of those fossils and the fact that the same animals that lived during the time of all human life are not a part of that "migration" you speak of. There is also a complete lack of evidence of any artifacts or historical record which would surely exist if man had the capability to do such a feat.

If the continents were underwater at some time and were to float on the mantle rising above sea level then the distance between continents would be a function of how stiff the earth surface was.
Portions of the continents were under water throughout geologic history but you seem to have overlooked a few physical problems with those assumptions. First you are confusing the mantle with the lithosphere. They are quite different, but you do have one concept somewhat correct. The core of the continents are made up of granitic rock while the seafloor is composed of basaltic rock. Granite is much less dense than basalt and therefore do literally float over basalt. But that is also somewhat misleading in that description because there is quite a bit of geophysics not included in that description. Nevertheless, none of that would have anything to do with sea level or the reason there are some marine deposits on are found on continental interiors.

A very stiff surface would only allow one continent because the Earths surface could not be bent into a wave shape.
I have no idea what you mean by wave shape, but you are aware of the curvature of the Earth, I gather. Are you suggesting that a continent cannot be a curved shape? If you are then the Earth would have to be flat, not round.

A more flexible earth crust would make a wave of land water land water with approximately the same distances. Of course the Earths crust is not necessarily always the same stiffness but it is similar enough to cause a common minimum ocean width between close continents giving them the appearance they would fit together.
That is not the case nor can you provide any physics to support such an assumption.

I do not need to cause the continents to have moved together because mankind existed and knew how to build boats.
Continents have both collided and moved apart. Look at the mid-Atlantic ridge. This is an area where basalt is upwelling. By dating the rock on both sides of the ridge, it is seen that moving away from the ridge on both sides, the ages of the rock matches. Additionally, magnetic reversals are recognized and match exactly on both sides of the ridge. That is historical geophysical evidence. But let's go one step further. Since satellites have been in use, geophysicists have been able to measure the continuing rate of the separation of the continents and the direction of their movement. This real-time measurement of rate is on the order of several inches a year on average. Extrapolating that movement rate and direction backward, the continents do bit back together. There is much much more to this of course as to what the driving mechanism is, but this should be enough for you to understand the very basic basics of the process.

I am comfortable with my perspective because I do not need to extrapolate into extremely long time durations or move continents around to fit my theory to the data.

Duordi.
Again, I cannot emphasize enough the need to look at the actual science as presented by experts who work in the field rather than no expert sources. Though you may be comfortable with your idea it lacks supporting evidence.

Here are a few sources I recommend:

Understanding plate motions [This Dynamic Earth, USGS]
This Dynamic Earth--Contents [USGS]
CVO Website - Plate Tectonics, Hot Spots, and Ring of Fire - World Map
Harry Hess: One of the Discoverers of Seafloor Spreading
Plate Tectonics
Plate Tectonic Reconstructions at UTIG
 
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mzungu

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The theory of plate tectonics is a "theory" not a fact. It is important to keep the two separate but it is also important to look at both sides of a topic to make sure you have the best explanation.
Dear me :doh: How many times must it be explained to creationists that: A scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment."


So are you also dismissing: The Theory of Gravity, The Atomic theory, etc?

Learn scientific terminology before you post your dismissals lest you be made to look like one who knows nothing about that which he dismisses!:doh:

cartoon2.gif
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Or this perspective:


CreationismTexas.jpg
The verse in question is probably John 3:16, but for kicks I looked up Genesis 3:16:

"To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”"

Misogyny - The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it.
 
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duordi

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Interesting.

Let me see if I get this straight.

The reason religion was not taught in the schools was to prevent a dominant belief from preventing alternate theories from being taught.

Now you have a dominant belief but it is wrong to give alternate ideas.

You also think people who want alternate ideas to be presented want more GYM classes and look like the mean evil school board guy.

If you are sure your ideas are the only correct interpretation of the evidence then why act like you are afraid of some competition?
You are not afraid are you?

Let both be taught so the students can make up their own minds.

Duordi
 
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RickG

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Interesting.

Let me see if I get this straight.

The reason religion was not taught in the schools was to prevent a dominant belief from preventing alternate theories from being taught.

Now you have a dominant belief but it is wrong to give alternate ideas.

You also think people who want alternate ideas to be presented want more GYM classes and look like the mean evil school board guy.

If you are sure your ideas are the only correct interpretation of the evidence then why act like you are afraid of some competition?
You are not afraid are you?

Let both be taught so the students can make up their own minds.

Duordi

It might be helpful to quote the posts to which you are responding. That would help a lot with context.

Nevertheless, I think it is fine to have a course in religion taught in the classroom. Please understand that I am specifically referring to religion and not the distorted science that is presented in creationist literature. Creationist literature is not another perspective, it is deceitful and deliberate misrepresentation of legitimate scientific literature. The fact is, there is no absolutely original research presented in any of the creationist science literature. But then again, their audience is not the scientific community nor intended for any scientific advancement.
 
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mzungu

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Interesting.

Let me see if I get this straight.

The reason religion was not taught in the schools was to prevent a dominant belief from preventing alternate theories from being taught.

Now you have a dominant belief but it is wrong to give alternate ideas.

You also think people who want alternate ideas to be presented want more GYM classes and look like the mean evil school board guy.

If you are sure your ideas are the only correct interpretation of the evidence then why act like you are afraid of some competition?
You are not afraid are you?

Let both be taught so the students can make up their own minds.

Duordi
In order for alternative theories to be taught in science class they have to be "scientific theories" and not religious beliefs. How would you feel if science insisted that ToE be taught in Church alongside the Bible? Why are you so afraid of science that you dismiss it outright? Is your faith so weak?

You are trying to use science to prove the supernatural and the only way you can do that is to use cartoon physics. When science is taught in schools and or universities it is done by using the rules of science and the rules exclude the unfalsifiable.

God is an unfalsifiable concept and it is fine in anyone believing in such but this in no way concerns science!
 
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