Quoting Calvin

[Hammster]

i was born again/regenerated after i believed God existed and Jesus paid for my sins.

That's synergism as is normally defined. It's not that you did any work towards your regeneration. But you needed to cooperate with God prior to regeneration. If you want to call it something else, that's fine. But that's what I'm referring to when I say synergism.

 

[Hammster]

i was born again/regenerated after i believed God existed and Jesus paid for my sins.

what do you believe for yourself? - that you were regenerated and then believed the gospel?

if so are you believing that no one can believe the gospel without first being regenerated?

scripture says the gospel is the power of God that produces salvation/regeneration - Romans 1:16

if they do not first hear the gospel they can not be saved - Romans 10:14-16

Regeneration is a new heart. It takes us from being fleshly to being spiritual. The old heart of stone regrets God and wants nothing to do with Him. That's why we need a heart change.

With the new heart, we believe and are justified. So when scripture says faith comes by hearing, the conclusion is that hearing would be regeneration, and the gospel preached is the means God uses to regenerate.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

That's synergism as is normally defined. It's not that you did any work towards your regeneration. But you needed to cooperate with God prior to regeneration. If you want to call it something else, that's fine. But that's what I'm referring to when I say synergism.

Synergism is not a term of ancient koine Greek, nor is it a term from Scripture. It is a man-made English term that relates to concepts in the fields of medicine, phisiology, pharmacology, biochemistry, etc.

It also can refer to the later development of a theological term 'synergism' that was coined to blame non-Calvinists for believing that man 'works with' God in salvation. It's generally only used as a strawman or 'prop' term by those of the reformed tradition to brand non-Calvinists as believing that man 'works with' God in effecting salvation.

We should be most concerned with what scripture says on a topic, not how a theory is interpreted by various parties through man-made terms and definitions and human philosophical speculation, especially when those definitions mean different things to different people. (Blaise Pascal's provincial letters are an interesting read for seeing how the problem of various groups coining their own definitions and accusing other groups of heresy for not using the same terms just leads away from Scripture and towards unproductive division.)

Basically, synergism is "the interaction of discrete agencies (such as industrial firms), agents (such as drugs), or conditions such that the total effect is greater than the sum of the individual effects."
Definition of SYNERGISM

Imagine two drugs/chemicals that are useful on their own, but a doctor finds that when combined together, the effect from their interaction is ten-fold in a patient. That's synergy, as the cumulative effect of the interaction is greater than the mere addition of the reactions.

A patient swallowing the drug, or the drug interacting with the patient's body to heal it, is not synergy. A syringe injecting a drug is not synergy.

Here is where the 'theological' definition of synergy gets dicey and misconstrues the underlying definition entirely. The standard Calvinist presentation of monergism vs. synergism treats any element involved in a process as part of a 'synergistic' reaction, defining it as any two agents merely cooperating in any fashion. Even a patient consenting to take medicine or to a nurse injecting a drug would be considered 'synergistic.'

Due to this misdefinition (or deliberate redefinition in the fashion of a classic straw man argument), then a human responding to the gospel in faith as required before the regeneration of the spirit is falsely branded 'synergism' and labeled a form of works-based salvation where man's effort is required.

The vast majority of Christians, of the reformed tradition or not, believe that 'God alone saves' through the work of Christ on the cross.

Many Calvinists (such as R.C. Sproul) label the theory of regeneration by the Spirit being a necessary precedent to faith 'monergism' and the theory that response to the gospel in faith is required before Christ gives the Spirit and regeneration happens 'synergism,' but neither are very useful terms for discussing the order of salvation as they are man-made theological terms, only vaguely related to the underlying scientific term, that are not agreed upon by all parties nor found concretely in scripture.
Is monergism or synergism correct?

 

[Hammster]

Synergism is not a term of ancient koine Greek, nor is it a term from Scripture. It is a man-made English term that relates to concepts in the fields of medicine, phisiology, pharmacology, biochemistry, etc.

It also can refer to the later development of a theological term 'synergism' that was coined to blame non-Calvinists for believing that man 'works with' God in salvation. It's generally only used as a strawman or 'prop' term by those of the reformed tradition to brand non-Calvinists as believing that man 'works with' God in effecting salvation.

We should be most concerned with what scripture says on a topic, not how a theory is interpreted by various parties through man-made terms and definitions and human philosophical speculation, especially when those definitions mean different things to different people. (Blaise Pascal's provincial letters are an interesting read for seeing how the problem of various groups coining their own definitions and accusing other groups of heresy for not using the same terms just leads away from Scripture and towards unproductive division.)

Basically, synergism is "the interaction of discrete agencies (such as industrial firms), agents (such as drugs), or conditions such that the total effect is greater than the sum of the individual effects."
Definition of SYNERGISM

Imagine two drugs/chemicals that are useful on their own, but a doctor finds that when combined together, the effect from their interaction is ten-fold in a patient. That's synergy, as the cumulative effect of the interaction is greater than the mere addition of the reactions.

A patient swallowing the drug, or the drug interacting with the patient's body to heal it, is not synergy. A syringe injecting a drug is not synergy.

Here is where the 'theological' definition of synergy gets dicey and misconstrues the underlying definition entirely. The standard Calvinist presentation of monergism vs. synergism treats any element involved in a process as part of a 'synergistic' reaction, defining it as any two agents merely cooperating in any fashion. Even a patient consenting to take medicine or to a nurse injecting a drug would be considered 'synergistic.'

Due to this misdefinition (or deliberate redefinition in the fashion of a classic straw man argument), then a human responding to the gospel in faith as required before the regeneration of the spirit is falsely branded 'synergism' and labeled a form of works-based salvation where man's effort is required.

The vast majority of Christians, of the reformed tradition or not, believe that 'God alone saves' through the work of Christ on the cross.

Many Calvinists (such as R.C. Sproul) label the theory of regeneration by the Spirit being a necessary precedent to faith 'monergism' and the theory that response to the gospel in faith is required before Christ gives the Spirit and regeneration happens 'synergism,' but neither are very useful terms for discussing the order of salvation as they are man-made theological terms, only vaguely related to the underlying scientific term, that are not agreed upon by all parties nor found concretely in scripture.
Is monergism or synergism correct?

Quoting Calvin

 

[Truthfrees]

That's synergism as is normally defined. It's not that you did any work towards your regeneration. But you needed to cooperate with God prior to regeneration. If you want to call it something else, that's fine. But that's what I'm referring to when I say synergism.

no synergism means i have to cooperate with God to be regenerated

i was not involved in any way with my regeneration

what ever happened before regeneration is separate and distinct and not covered in the man-made doctrine of synergism

so no matter which way you look at it i'm a monergist as far as regeneration is concerned - God alone regenerated me without any participation/consent/cooperation/energy/work on my part

you can't make my experience perfectly fit your man-made doctrine

i am as much of a synergist as you are when it comes to regeneration

so stop labelling me a synergist

 

[Truthfrees]

Regeneration is a new heart. It takes us from being fleshly to being spiritual. The old heart of stone regrets God and wants nothing to do with Him. That's why we need a heart change.

With the new heart, we believe and are justified. So when scripture says faith comes by hearing, the conclusion is that hearing would be regeneration, and the gospel preached is the means God uses to regenerate.

your doctrinal timeline is backwards to my experience - thus the weakness of man-made doctrines

this is why i'm not a synergist by your synergist timeline

you don't have a doctrine that covers my timeline because you believe regeneration happens before faith and i know that faith happens before regeneration

i said yes to God's call with the faith he gives every man before they are regenerated - with my old carnal heart

then God alone regenerated me - gave me a new heart - made me a new creation

i got a new heart when i was regenerated and not before

you have to make up a new doctrine to match my timeline and not try to make my experience fit the backward timeline of synergism

 

[Hammster]

no synergism means i have to cooperate with God to be regenerated

i was not involved in any way with my regeneration

what ever happened before regeneration is separate and distinct and not covered in the man-made doctrine of synergism

so no matter which way you look at it i'm a monergist as far as regeneration is concerned - God alone regenerated me without any participation/consent/cooperation/energy/work on my part

you can't make my experience perfectly fit your man-made doctrine

i am as much of a synergist as you are when it comes to regeneration

so stop labelling me a synergist

Please reread what I wrote in response to what you said. My point was that what you describe is synergism. You can call it whatever you want. But you'll know what I mean when I use the term.

 

[Hammster]

your doctrinal timeline is backwards to my experience - thus the weakness of man-made doctrines

this is why i'm not a synergist by your synergist timeline

you don't have a doctrine that covers my timeline because you believe regeneration happens before faith and i know that faith happens before regeneration

i said yes to God's call with the faith he gives every man before they are regenerated - with my old carnal heart

then God alone regenerated me - gave me a new heart - made me a new creation

i got a new heart when i was regenerated and not before

you have to make up a new doctrine to match my timeline and not try to make my experience fit the backward timeline of synergism

I'm rejecting your man-made doctrine in favor of what is taught in scripture.

 

[Truthfrees]

Please reread what I wrote in response to what you said. My point was that what you describe is synergism. You can call it whatever you want. But you'll know what I mean when I use the term.

but your term does not match my experience

your term matches an experience with a different timeline and dynamics

so don't use that inaccurate term to describe my experience

i reject the tenets of synergism completely and ask that you never again label my experience with that inaccurate term

i am no more synergistic than you are

please respect my beliefs and not impose your beliefs/doctrines/labels on me

 

[Truthfrees]

I'm rejecting your man-made doctrine in favor of what is taught in scripture.

likewise my dear friend

i reject all these man-made doctrines/labels you are trying to force on me

so don't label me with a man-made label again

scripture only please

 

[Truthfrees]

this is what scripture says about how regeneration comes after faith not before:

1. scripture says the gospel is the power of God that produces salvation/regeneration - Romans 1:16

2. if they do not first hear the gospel they can not be saved - Romans 10:14-16

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

there is no one with true saving faith who is not being regenerated.

there is no one who is being regenerated that doesn't have true saving faith.

it's not either/or, it's both/and.

 

[Hammster]

but your term does not match my experience

your term matches an experience with a different timeline and dynamics

so don't use that inaccurate term to describe my experience

i reject the tenets of synergism completely and ask that you never again label my experience with that inaccurate term

i am no more synergistic than you are

please respect my beliefs and not impose your beliefs/doctrines/labels on me

But you'll know what I mean when I use the term.

That's all I'm saying.

 

[Hammster]

likewise my dear friend

i reject all these man-made doctrines/labels you are trying to force on me

so don't label me with a man-made label again

scripture only please

You had a whole post about not following man made doctrine, and yet provided no scripture to support yours.

 

[Truthfrees]

You had a whole post about not following man made doctrine, and yet provided no scripture to support yours.

enough my dear friend

let's get back to scripture and stop with the accusations and labels

 

[Truthfrees]

But you'll know what I mean when I use the term.

That's all I'm saying.

enough with the man-made terms and labels

let's get back to scripture please

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Regeneration is a new heart. It takes us from being fleshly to being spiritual. The old heart of stone regrets God and wants nothing to do with Him. That's why we need a heart change.

With the new heart, we believe and are justified. So when scripture says faith comes by hearing, the conclusion is that hearing would be regeneration, and the gospel preached is the means God uses to regenerate.

Hearing in Rom 10:17 is not regeneration.

akoé - hearing, faculty of hearing, ear; report, rumor.

We can see how it is commonly used in other scriptures:

Mk 7:35: "At this, the man’s ears were opened, his tongue was loosened and he began to speak plainly." (Jesus healing a deaf man)

Matt 4:23-24: "Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed; and he healed them."

Gal 3:2 "I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" (Note that they had to believe what they heard to receive the Spirit - not vice versa)

II Thess 2:13: "And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. "

This shows how 'faith comes by hearing' - not by a regenerated heart that allows faith, but by the acceptance of the listener that the good news is not of human origin, but the word of God.

The word 'accept' here is "paralambánō (from 3844 /pará, "from close-alongside" and 2983 /lambánō, "aggressively take") – to take (receive) by showing strong personal initiative."
Strong's Greek: 3880. παραλαμβάνω (paralambanó) -- to receive from

Heb 5:11 "About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing." (Not 'dull of regeneration' - which would make little sense even as an idiom for not trying to understand. These people he is talking to are already believers as well, but ones who are stagnating in their growth rather than growing to maturity.)

Matt 24:6: "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet."

Etc. Nothing in the concept of 'hearing' equates it to spiritual regeneration.

"But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART "-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.…" Rom 10:8-10

Paul doesn't say, "The word is only near some hearts, because they receive a new heart so they can believe, but for others the word is far off, so they can't believe."

It is actually a reference back to Dueteronomy 30:11-14

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."

Man can never use the excuse of "it was impossible for me" to say why he declined to believe, as it is possible for everyone to believe the gospel when they hear it!

We also see Paul speaking of the persuasive power of the gospel (not a new heart preceding faith) in I Cor 2:4-5:

"My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power."

Regeneration isn't a common term in scripture, but it has one passage that details it: Tit 3:5-7

"...he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal/regeneration by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

The renewal by the Spirit is tied in with the 'washing of rebirth,' the pouring out of the spirit, and justification by grace.

Justification comes by faith, not before faith (Rom 4:2-10, Rom 4:23-24, Gal 2:16, Acts 13:39, etc.)

The washing of rebirth is baptism (I Pet 3:21, I Tim 1:5, ph 4:4-6, II Cor 5:14-17, Col 2:11-13, etc.)

Note that faith precedes rising to a new life in the power of God (Col 2:11-13)

The pouring out of the Spirit also follows faith and does not precede it: (Gal 3:2, Acts 10:45, Rom 5:1-11, etc.)

Now, I am assuming that two passages your comment obliquely adresses are Ezek 36:22-36 and I Cor 2:6-16.

The first is a prophecy regarding Israel, both God's punishment on them and a promise to one day bring them back to their nation, which has yet to be completely fulfilled.

"‘...For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God...." Ezek 36:24-28

Nothing in that prophecy mandates that anyone receive a new heart before they can respond to the gospel in faith. The passage certainly contains many allusions to baptism, receiving the Spirit, and walking by the Spirit - giving hope that one day Israel will turn to faith in Christ.

The other passage, I Cor 2:6-16, is about "a message of wisdom among the mature," - not among unbelievers. It speaks of how believers have the mind of Christ and the Spirit so they may understand the things of the Spirit. Specifically, that believers may understand the things God has prepared for those who love him, that we may understand what God has freely given us (not get what God freely offers), and make judgements about spiritual matters. " I Jn 2:27 shows how the Spirit helps teach us all things. Rom 8:14-16 shows how the Spirit illuminates the believers relationship as a child of God. Gal 5:16-26 shows how walking by the Spirit guards us against the desires of the flesh. Etc.

Again, nothing in the passage mandates that Spiritual regeneration precedes faith, as it is about the Spiritual discernment we gain once the Spirit resides in us. Unbelievers do not have that understanding of spiritual things.

 

[Hammster]

this is what scripture says about how regeneration comes after faith not before:

1. scripture says the gospel is the power of God that produces salvation/regeneration - Romans 1:16

2. if they do not first hear the gospel they can not be saved - Romans 10:14-16

That's a claim. You'll have to explain how these verses support your assertion.

 

[Hammster]

Hearing in Rom 10:17 is not regeneration.

akoé - hearing, faculty of hearing, ear; report, rumor.

We can see how it is commonly used in other scriptures:

Mk 7:35: "At this, the man’s ears were opened, his tongue was loosened and he began to speak plainly." (Jesus healing a deaf man)

Matt 4:23-24: "Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed; and he healed them."

Gal 3:2 "I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" (Note that they had to believe what they heard to receive the Spirit - not vice versa)

II Thess 2:13: "And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. "

This shows how 'faith comes by hearing' - not by a regenerated heart that allows faith, but by the acceptance of the listener that the good news is not of human origin, but the word of God.

The word 'accept' here is "paralambánō (from 3844 /pará, "from close-alongside" and 2983 /lambánō, "aggressively take") – to take (receive) by showing strong personal initiative."
Strong's Greek: 3880. παραλαμβάνω (paralambanó) -- to receive from

Heb 5:11 "About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing." (Not 'dull of regeneration' - which would make little sense even as an idiom for not trying to understand. These people he is talking to are already believers as well, but ones who are stagnating in their growth rather than growing to maturity.)

Matt 24:6: "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet."

Etc. Nothing in the concept of 'hearing' equates it to spiritual regeneration.

"But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART "-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.…" Rom 10:8-10

Paul doesn't say, "The word is only near some hearts, because they receive a new heart so they can believe, but for others the word is far off, so they can't believe."

It is actually a reference back to Dueteronomy 30:11-14

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."

Man can never use the excuse of "it was impossible for me" to say why he declined to believe, as it is possible for everyone to believe the gospel when they hear it!

We also see Paul speaking of the persuasive power of the gospel (not a new heart preceding faith) in I Cor 2:4-5:

"My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power."

Regeneration isn't a common term in scripture, but it has one passage that details it: Tit 3:5-7

"...he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal/regeneration by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

The renewal by the Spirit is tied in with the 'washing of rebirth,' the pouring out of the spirit, and justification by grace.

Justification comes by faith, not before faith (Rom 4:2-10, Rom 4:23-24, Gal 2:16, Acts 13:39, etc.)

The washing of rebirth is baptism (I Pet 3:21, I Tim 1:5, ph 4:4-6, II Cor 5:14-17, Col 2:11-13, etc.)

Note that faith precedes rising to a new life in the power of God (Col 2:11-13)

The pouring out of the Spirit also follows faith and does not precede it: (Gal 3:2, Acts 10:45, Rom 5:1-11, etc.)

Now, I am assuming that two passages your comment obliquely adresses are Ezek 36:22-36 and I Cor 2:6-16.

The first is a prophecy regarding Israel, both God's punishment on them and a promise to one day bring them back to their nation, which has yet to be completely fulfilled.

"‘...For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God...." Ezek 36:24-28

Nothing in that prophecy mandates that anyone receive a new heart before they can respond to the gospel in faith. The passage certainly contains many allusions to baptism, receiving the Spirit, and walking by the Spirit - giving hope that one day Israel will turn to faith in Christ.

The other passage, I Cor 2:6-16, is about "a message of wisdom among the mature," - not among unbelievers. It speaks of how believers have the mind of Christ and the Spirit so they may understand the things of the Spirit. Specifically, that believers may understand the things God has prepared for those who love him, that we may understand what God has freely given us (not get what God freely offers), and make judgements about spiritual matters. " I Jn 2:27 shows how the Spirit helps teach us all things. Rom 8:14-16 shows how the Spirit illuminates the believers relationship as a child of God. Gal 5:16-26 shows how walking by the Spirit guards us against the desires of the flesh. Etc.

Again, nothing in the passage mandates that Spiritual regeneration precedes faith, as it is about the Spiritual discernment we gain once the Spirit resides in us. Unbelievers do not have that understanding of spiritual things.

And this is why I ask questions. It makes it so that I don't do long posts that don't really say anything or address what was said. You gave a grammatical response, not a theological one. A lot of time wasted on your part.

 

[Truthfrees]

And this is why I ask questions. It makes it so that I don't do long posts that don't really say anything or address what was said. You gave a grammatical response, not a theological one. A lot of time wasted on your part.

not for those of us who like a full discussion to learn what scripture says

short non-informative answers are easier to read though than long thorough thought out answers