Quoting Calvin

[Hammster]

agreed but what i am describing is not synergism

Again, if God doesn't have the freedom to change a heart, it's synergism. It's just a word to describe your position. No more, no less.

 

[Hammster]

that is the issue we are bringing up to you

you do not accurately rephrase what we are saying

you assume you know what we are saying and without our permission rephrase

we then correct you on what we really said

you keep doing this - putting words in our mouth

this is unacceptable - you are misquoting/putting words in our mouths/rephrasing

please don't do that anymore - please ask us to rephrase - or ask us if xyz is what we are saying - don't tell us we are saying xyz

Show me where I've been inaccurate and make your correction. Somehow you've two have made this about me. If it continues, I'll find another thread.

 

[Truthfrees]

Again, if God doesn't have the freedom to change a heart, it's synergism. It's just a word to describe your position. No more, no less.

synergism means 2 parties make something happen

God makes salvation on His own

man accepts it or rejects it - he makes nothing happen

 

[Hammster]

synergism means 2 parties make something happen

God makes salvation on His own

man accepts it or rejects it - he makes nothing happen

If man doesn't accept it, it doesn't happen. So for it to happen, man must accept.

2 parties.

Synergism.

 

[Truthfrees]

If man doesn't accept it, it doesn't happen. So for it to happen, man must accept.

2 parties.

Synergism.

a surgeon alone does the surgery - the patient can't in any way contribute to the work involved in performing a surgery - there is no synergy in the act of surgery

God is the surgeon - we are the patient

the patient accepts the surgeon and the surgeon does the surgery all on his own with no contribution from the patient

EDIT
with Jesus - He paid for the sins of the whole world - it's complete - man can do nothing to add to the payment

1. God proves to each man that He exists and that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world

2. man accepts this or rejects this

3. for the man who accepts what God says the payment Jesus made gets applied to his account - for the man who rejects this the payment does not get applied to his account

4. once the payment is applied God regenerates the man by His own power - without the payment applied to his account the man remains unregenerate

we have no synergy - nothing at all to contribute - God alone is the only party doing the paying - the application of the payment - and then the work of regeneration

synergy involves energy exerted - we exert no energy at all in the whole process of payment - application of payment - or the resulting regeneration after the payment is applied to our account

 

[Hammster]

a surgeon alone does the surgery - the patient can't in any way contribute to the work involved in performing a surgery - there is no synergy in the act of surgery

God is the surgeon - we are the patient

the patient accepts the surgeon and the surgeon does the surgery all on his own with no contribution from the patient

with Jesus - He paid for the sins of the whole world - it's complete - man can do nothing to add to the payment - we accept or reject His work - we say yes and the payment is applied - we say no and the payment is not applied

regeneration happens the moment we let the payment be applied - we do not apply the payment - God applies the payment - then God does the regeneration - we have no synergy - nothing at all to contribute - God alone is the only party doing the paying - the application of the payment - and then the work of regeneration

synergy involves energy exerted - we exert no energy at all in the whole process of payment - application of payment - or the resulting regeneration after the payment is applied to our account

You are blurring the lines. I'm not saying that you can regenerate yourself (have the surgery, in this case). But to have the surgery, you must agree to it. So it's synergism.

In theology, synergism doesn't mean that you save yourself or are in some way able to participate in your regeneration. It simply means that in order for God to regenerate you, you must be willing to allow Him to do so.

So if I can attempt to use a similar analogy, monergism would be you coming to a hospital ER, dying and unconscious, and without consent, the surgeon performing life-saving surgery on you.

 

[Truthfrees]

If man doesn't accept it, it doesn't happen. So for it to happen, man must accept.

2 parties.

Synergism.

payment already happened - Jesus fully paid once for all - 1 Peter 3:18, Romans 6:10

application of the payment to our account takes no energy - no effort - no work/action of any kind from us - only God exerts energy to apply the payment

only God exerts energy to then regenerate us

we are a passive non-energetic non-synergetic party

all the action/effort/work/energy is by God alone - therefore no synergy

synergy needs energy/effort/work/action by 2 parties

accepting the work of Jesus involves no energy/effort/work/action from us

 

[Truthfrees]

You are blurring the lines. I'm not saying that you can regenerate yourself (have the surgery, in this case). But to have the surgery, you must agree to it. So it's synergism.

In theology, synergism doesn't mean that you save yourself or are in some way able to participate in your regeneration. It simply means that in order for God to regenerate you, you must be willing to allow Him to do so.

So if I can attempt to use a similar analogy, monergism would be you coming to a hospital ER, dying and unconscious, and without consent, the surgeon performing life-saving surgery on you.

i see what you are saying about monergism and synergism

i edited the post you quoted because i saw some errors in what i said

the reason i disagree with synergism is there is no way anyone can cooperate with their own salvation

all the person knows with his conscious mind is that God is proving to them He exists and Jesus died for their sins

the person either accepts this or he doesn't

then in a separate step after he believes God exists and Jesus died for his sins - without his knowledge/understanding/permission God regenerates him - so he has no way of cooperating with a spiritual activity that is far beyond his comprehension

my version of monergism is different than your version of monergism

THE REGENERATE
you have 2 parties involved in your 1-step monergism - God who decides and acts - and the regenerate who does nothing because God did it all

i have 2 parties involved in my 2-step monergism - 1. God who proves He is God and Jesus died for man's sins - man who believes/accepts God's truth using the measure of faith that God gives to each man - 2. God who regenerates the man - and the regenerate who does nothing because God did it all

THE REJECTOR
you have 2 parties involved in your 1-step monergism - God who decides and acts to cause a man to refuse God - and the rejector who does nothing because God did it all

i have 2 parties involved in my 2-step monergism - 1. God who proves He is God and Jesus died for man's sins - man who rejects God's truth due to the fact he hates God and loves sin misusing the measure of faith God gives to every man - 2. God who does not regenerate the man - and the rejector who does nothing at all because salvation comes from God alone

 

[Hammster]

i see what you are saying about monergism and synergism

i edited the post you quoted because i saw some errors in what i said

the reason i disagree with synergism is there is no way anyone can cooperate with their own salvation

all the person knows with his conscious mind is that God is proving to them He exists and Jesus died for their sins

the person either accepts this or he doesn't

then in a separate step after he believes God exists and Jesus died for his sins - without his knowledge/understanding/permission God regenerates him - so he has no way of cooperating with a spiritual activity that is far beyond his comprehension

my version of monergism is different than your version of monergism

THE REGENERATE
you have 2 parties involved in your 1-step monergism - God who decides and acts - and the regenerate who does nothing because God did it all

i have 2 parties involved in my 2-step monergism - 1. God who proves He is God and Jesus died for man's sins - man who believes/accepts God's truth using the measure of faith that God gives to each man - 2. God who regenerates the man - and the regenerate who does nothing because God did it all

THE REJECTOR
you have 2 parties involved in your 1-step monergism - God who decides and acts to cause a man to refuse God - and the rejector who does nothing because God did it all

i have 2 parties involved in my 2-step monergism - 1. God who proves He is God and Jesus died for man's sins - man who rejects God's truth due to the fact he hates God and loves sin misusing the measure of faith God gives to every man - 2. God who does not regenerate the man - and the rejector who does nothing at all because salvation comes from God alone

Your two-step monergism is synergism, theologically speaking.

A rose by any other name...

 

[Truthfrees]

Your two-step monergism is synergism, theologically speaking.

A rose by any other name...

because regeneration is a separate work after someone accepts God exists and Jesus died for their sins it does not conform with the meaning of synergy:
synergism

1. 
   
   the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.+

1. Definition of SYNERGISM

2. the definition of synergism

3. What is synergism? definition and meaning

4. Synergism (theology) - Wikipedia

5. Synergism | Theopedia

 

[Hammster]

because regeneration is a separate work after someone accepts God exists and Jesus died for their sins it does not conform with the meaning of synergy:
synergism

1. 
   
   the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.+

1. Definition of SYNERGISM

2. the definition of synergism

3. What is synergism? definition and meaning

4. Synergism (theology) - Wikipedia

5. Synergism | Theopedia

Okay. Think what you wish.

 

[Truthfrees]

Okay. Think what you wish.

likewise my dear friend

you and i disagree on man-made terms like synergism

you and i also disagree on interpretation of scripture regarding free will and regeneration

you want to label my beliefs with an inaccurate label and i reject that inaccurate label

nothing more nothing less

 

[Hammster]

likewise my dear friend

you and i disagree on man-made terms like synergism

you and i also disagree on interpretation of scripture regarding free will and regeneration

you want to label my beliefs with an inaccurate label and i reject that inaccurate label

nothing more nothing less

You may disagree with the label. But the truth of it, regardless of how you choose to label it, you believe that God will not regenerate a man apart from his permission.

 

[Truthfrees]

You may disagree with the label. But the truth of it, regardless of how you choose to label it, you believe that God will not regenerate a man apart from his permission.

no not true

i said regeneration needs no permission/knowledge/understanding because it is a spiritual work far beyond the comprehension and ability of man to be involved

man is never asked by God to give his permission to regeneration

God only proves He exists and Jesus paid for man's sins - which is not regeneration - regeneration comes later

perhaps in your beliefs accepting God and being regenerated is one and the same

i do not interpret scripture that way

i see 2 distinct situations - making regeneration totally an act of God with no contribution from man

 

[Hammster]

no not true

i said regeneration needs no permission/knowledge/understanding because it is a spiritual work far beyond the comprehension and ability of man to be involved

man is never asked by God to give his permission to regeneration

God only proves He exists and Jesus paid for man's sins - which is not regeneration - regeneration comes later

perhaps in your beliefs accepting God and being regenerated is one and the same

i do not interpret scripture that way

i see 2 distinct situations - making regeneration totally an act of God with no contribution from man

So you're saying that you were born again prior to you believing the gospel? Or was belief in the gospel first?

 

[Hammster]

making regeneration totally an act of God with no contribution from man

I've never implied that you believe regeneration is partly a work of man.

 

[Truthfrees]

I've never implied that you believe regeneration is partly a work of man.

amen - that's good

then the part you and i disagree on is that accepting God exists and accepting Jesus died for our sins is a part of regeneration

i say it is not

it is a separate issue altogether

no synergy energy effort work
it also is a non-energetic response

iow i can sit here all day saying yes or no to your posts

it takes no energy at all on my part to say yes or no

which is all God looks for from a man when HE gives a measure of faith to every man and then beyond all doubt proves to each man that He exists and Jesus paid for all his sins

synergy effort energy work
the only energy it takes on my part is to look up scriptures and type and format my explanations to your posts - if i want - i don't have to do any of this effort in discussing this topic with you - i could simply sit here all day saying only yes or no to your posts

so replying to your posts with more than just a yes or no is a separate issue all together

likewise saying yes or no to God's proof that He exists and Jesus paid for all sins can never be considered synergy - but even beyond that it is a separate action from regeneration

that is why i am a monergist and why i totally reject synergism

if for you there are only 2 options then your options are far more narrow than mine

i don't have to be boxed in by man-made theology

i can freely believe scripture apart from man-made theology

 

[Hammster]

then the part you and i disagree on is that accepting God exists and accepting Jesus died for our sins is a part of regeneration

I've also never said or implied that anything is part of regeneration. So that's not what we disagree on.

Here's my early question.

So you're saying that you were born again prior to you believing the gospel? Or was belief in the gospel first?

 

[Truthfrees]

amen - that's good

then the part you and i disagree on is that accepting God exists and accepting Jesus died for our sins is a part of regeneration

i say it is not

it is a separate issue altogether

no synergy energy effort work
it also is a non-energetic response

iow i can sit here all day saying yes or no to your posts

it takes no energy at all on my part to say yes or no

which is all God looks for from a man when HE gives a measure of faith to every man and then beyond all doubt proves to each man that He exists and Jesus paid for all his sins

synergy effort energy work
the only energy it takes on my part is to look up scriptures and type and format my explanations to your posts - if i want - i don't have to do any of this effort in discussing this topic with you - i could simply sit here all day saying only yes or no to your posts

so replying to your posts with more than just a yes or no is a separate issue all together

likewise saying yes or no to God's proof that He exists and Jesus paid for all sins can never be considered synergy - but even beyond that it is a separate action from regeneration

that is why i am a monergist and why i totally reject synergism

if for you there are only 2 options then your options are far more narrow than mine

i don't have to be boxed in by man-made theology

i can freely believe scripture apart from man-made theology

@Hammster
speaking of no effort/energy/work:

i see some people in this discussion put a great deal of all 3 into their posts - and a few put very little effort/energy/work into their posts

i wanted to say that i do appreciate you and do not begrudge all the energy/effort/work i put into my posts because i am learning things and growing in faith and understanding of scripture - only because you are still in this discussion

the fact that you disagree with me does not bother me

it gives me the reason to dig deeper and examine scripture closer

so God bless you my dear friend

i appreciate you

 

[Truthfrees]

So you're saying that you were born again prior to you believing the gospel? Or was belief in the gospel first?

i was born again/regenerated after i believed God existed and Jesus paid for my sins.

what do you believe for yourself? - that you were regenerated and then believed the gospel?

if so are you believing that no one can believe the gospel without first being regenerated?

scripture says the gospel is the power of God that produces salvation/regeneration - Romans 1:16

if they do not first hear the gospel they can not be saved - Romans 10:14-16