Questions to Catholics and Orthodox: Re: Works/Salvation?

[Bible Highlighter]

Eh, this is true of the Reformers, I suppose, and may have even been true of some Catholic theology during the Counter-Reformation. I’m no expert on the Council of Trent or of that time period. But for the record, even though you explain that you’ve given the “Orthodox POV,” I see no substantial diversion from that POV and contemporary Catholic teaching (CCC 396-412). You said the “West,” which of course would include the Catholic West, but the Catholic Church does not advocate the Augustinian notion of the entire human race as a massa damnata (which is what Edwards recapitulates in his famous sermon).



There’s just no such thing as a tradition-less Christian, as much as you might like to be. Such a person doesn’t exist. There are no lone (Christian) rangers and John Donne was correct—“no man is an island.” Human beings are, at their deepest core, communal and relational. From our very first moments, we begin to learn in a communal context (from others). Most primordially, the parent-child relation is how we learn. Then the world of the toddler broadens to include siblings, friends, cousins, later childhood included teachers, religious leaders (pastors/priests/Sunday school), schoolmates, and on and on it goes.

It is folly to believe that you have not been influenced by Christians who have come before you. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully Man? If so, you got that belief from early church councils. Now, you’ll tell yourself that the NT writings support that belief. And that would be true. But it would also be true to say that there is enough ambiguity in the NT for other beliefs about Christ to have arisen in the early church (eg, Arianism). And Arians quoted the NT just like St Athanasius did (and like you would today). All the christological controversies of the first few centuries of the early church saw a wide variety of opinions about Christ. And everyone had access to the same data set (the NT). So if the Bible alone is so crystal clear about Christ, how could so many controversies have arisen?

Even that data set (your New Testament) was handed down to you by the early church. It didn’t fall down from Heaven. And there was no immediate consensus on what should comprise the New Testament. It was argued about for centuries. Some books that are in our NT’s today were long considered controversial. Other books that didn’t eventually make the cut were excluded from the NT. Various local councils took up the matter of the NT canon and tried to settle it. But unless you believe that councils can settle matters like the divinity of Christ or the NT canon, how would you today know any better? How would you know that the 27 books of your NT comprise the totality of the written revelation from God? It wasn’t obvious to all early Christians that letters like 2 John, the Revelation of John and 2 Peter belonged in the NT, anymore than it was obvious that 1 Clement, the Shepherd of Hermas or the epistle of Barnabas did not belong in the NT. How could you, by yourself, settle all of these controversies?

I’m not really looking for answers to these questions. They’re more designed to illustrate the futility of the “Lone Ranger” attitude. It isn’t just you and your Bible. It could not ever be. It’s you (ie, your own particular and complicated consciousness) and your Bible (which was handed down to you) and some traditions (whichever ones you follow, whether or not you’re cognizant of having followed them).



As an example, who says that Matthew 25 is to be interpreted literalistically as what will actually occur at the Judgment? The parable itself seems to give many clues that it should not be taken literalistically as an end-times prophecy but rather as a very strong admonition by Christ that his followers must take care of the poor and vulnerable in society.



But you are a human, and your Bible came from other humans. You are culturally-conditioned (as we all are). I understand the impulse to rise above and transcend traditions. But it just isn’t possible. Human nature itself (being intrinsically communal and relational) prevents it. So does the history of the church, which gave you your christology and your NT (after literally centuries of struggle and controversy).

Please see my previous post to you.
I edited to say it in a different way that is trying to be less offensive.

Peace and blessings be unto you in the Lord.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hello Bible Highlighter..The Peace of Jesus, "The Jewish Christ" who is the Holy Spirit, The Eternal Father...Son of God and Son of man, The God of Abraham and the Living God in His human nature, be with you....You say:<<First, please fix the caps key when you type. It is generally considered as shouting when a person uses words in caps. Second, your sentences are also not contructed in a way that makes any sense, friend. Please explain a little better in what you are talking about.<< WELLL!!! You'd answer all my post...CORRECTLY!!!!!!!!!! and?!! It seems as you did get the message too....Brother James....

I still have no idea what your talking about; And who is brother James?

 

[Mountainmike]

This thread is not really about this particular topic.

I think it is. What must we do to be saved? “ eat my flesh” being one we are told. Also the greater question of deciding by what authority we know what it is we are asked to do, when interpretation differs?

If you look at the post I entered the thread with, I was saying people are overthinking it.

Jesus says “ do this “ of many things, see sheep and goats and “ eat my flesh” are just some.

Those arguing whether some are works, or works in response to faith, or unnecessary provided they have faith, but having free will should just do them!

None are good enough to merit salvation: but ignoring ordinances , or challenging Him on theology, to decide what is necessary would not be a a good conversation!

Not all who “ call on him Lord, Lord” will be saved! We are saved by grace. What grace can we expect if we deliberately ignore what He asks us to do?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think it is. What must we do to be saved? “ eat my flesh” being one we are told. Also the greater question of deciding by what authority we know what it is we are asked to do, when interpretation differs?

If you look at the post I entered the the with, I was saying people are overthinking it.

Jesus says “ do this “ of many things, see sheep and goats and “ eat my flesh” are just some.

Those arguing whether some are works, or works in response to faith, or unnecessary provided they have faith, but having free will should just do them!

None are good enough to merit salvation, or but ignoring ordinances , or challenging Him on theology, to decide what is necessary would not be a a good conversation! not all who “ call on him Lord, Lord” will be saved!

I doubt the creator of this thread meant only one work alone. He said works and not just one work. So he is referring to works (plural). So works in general is the topic of discussion and not just the one work you want to obviously want to talk about. I already made my case with the Scriptures. I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot force it to drink.

 

[Isilwen]

Hello there...ONLY "A REMNANT SAVED BY GRACE" Belongs to the God of Abraham The Living God, the rest belong to lucifer, literal jews, catolics, protestants and the rest of the gentiles....YOUR OWN BIBLE SAYS IT!! AND?!! ALL THE BIBLES!!! In case you do not believe yours...Brother James....

I think this would be considered un-orthodox teaching and therefore not allowed in this forum.

 

[Mountainmike]

I doubt he meant only one work alone. He said works and not just one work. So he is referring to works (plural). So works in general is the topic of discussion and not just the one work you want to obviously want to talk about. I already made my case with the Scriptures. I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot force it to drink.

This is a work of which he said “ do this” . So clearly important to Him as needed to be “ raised up on the last day”

I also referred sheep and goats.

You are the one who wishes to reinterpret John in contradiction of all generations from what his disciples said to the reformation, including those who compiled the New Testament or such as Anasthasius who helped combat the Arian heresy, resulting in the nicean creed. He was vociferous on the Eucharist. It is your view that is anomalous.

By what authority should I accept your view when almost all others disagree. it’s a fair question?!
I’m not a horse, but a well read Christian, which is why I don’t think this is drinking water! It is His “ blood” he tell us to drink!

anyway. Let others have a say.

My main issue is overthinking of works vs faith,
If He says do this we should do it!

 

[Isilwen]

Hello Isilwen... The Peace of Jesus, "The Jewish Christ" who is the Holy Spirit, The Eternal Father, Son of God and Son of man, The God of Abraham and the Living God in His Human nature...be with you..You say::<<I think this would be considered un-orthodox teaching and therefore not allowed in this forum.

<< Jeh, jeh!, jeh!, jeh!, jeh! daddy (lucifer) comes to the rescue!!!..Nothing will change (Of course! That is what you want)....You say:<<My God, I believe, I adore, I hope, I love, and I beg pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love God. (the angels prayer taught to the children at Fatima)<< Why don't just "DO THE WILL OF THE GOD OF ABRAHAM" and case will be close....Brother James....[/QUOTE]

Has nothing to do with Lucifer. It is the rule of these forums that you agreed to when you signed up to post here.

"
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Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs. Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

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So, as you can see this has nothing to do with Lucifer and everything to do with following the rules that you agreed to.

 

[Isilwen]

sometimes to ignore the problem only enlarges it

Seems that you need to look into your own mirror and follow your own advice!

 

[fhansen]

Hello brothers and sisters,

I am not trying to start a argument, just want to ask.

What is your view regarding salvation, faith and good works?

How does one get saved?

We enter the family of God through or via faith which establishes union with Him, a relationship that itself constitutes the basis of our justice or righteousness; it justifies us; God, alone, can make man just, not ourselves. From there we're expected to live and act like family members, the obligation to be personally righteous does not go away with faith under the New Covenant, but, in fact, the very means to finally attaining righteousness is now provided:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live" Rom 8:12-13

That's one aspect of the righteousness we're expected to express. The primary definition of the righteousness that results from fellowshipping with God is love and that's the binding agent between ourselves and Him; it's both a gift and a choice and the means and motivation by which we can fulfill the law and do the works that He's prepared for us in advance, not works of the law which cannot justify us but works of love that means justice or righteousness lives and prevails in us.
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

"The only thing that counts is faith working through love. " Gal 6:5

 

[Isilwen]

I Became a Spiritual Jew..a.k.a a Christian....".....Brother James....

Are you saying that I am not a Christian?

 

[fhansen]

What about:

Romans 8:1, ESV: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

It's saying no condemnation, as is no more.

There's a reason why we won't be condemned now-because we can 'do all things through Christ who strengthens us' (Phil 4:13), through Christ who takes away our sins, the source of condemnation and death for man. He makes us overcomers, as we're willing:
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." 8:12-13

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I think the Protestant Emphasis on soteriology is mistaken. I neither consider it necessary or helpful to believe in Sola Fide. The only benefit from such a belief can come when addressing scrupulousness, thus it might be beneficial to someone of Martin Luther's mindset, but not to the whole of Christendom.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is a work of which he said “ do this” . So clearly important to Him as needed to be “ raised up on the last day”

I also referred sheep and goats.

You are the one who wishes to reinterpret John in contradiction of all generations from what his disciples said to the reformation, including those who compiled the New Testament or such as Anasthasius who helped combat the Arian heresy, resulting in the nicean creed. He was vociferous on the Eucharist. It is your view that is anomalous.

By what authority should I accept your view when almost all others disagree. it’s a fair question?!
I’m not a horse, but a well read Christian, which is why I don’t think this is drinking water! It is His “ blood” he tell us to drink!

anyway. Let others have a say.

My main issue is overthinking of works vs faith,
If He says do this we should do it!

May...

 

[fhansen]

Hello There... The Peace of Jesus "The Jewish Christ" who is the Holy Spirit, The Heavenly Father, Son of God and Son of man, The God of Abraham, and the Living God in His human nature, be with you...You say:<<
We enter the family of God through or via faith which establishes union with Him, a relationship that itself constitutes the basis of our justice or righteousness; it justifies us; God, alone, can make man just, not ourselves. From there we're expected to live and act like family members, the obligation to be personally righteous does not go away with faith under the New Covenant, but, in fact, the very means to finally attaining righteousness is now provided:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live" Rom 8:12-13<< O.K> Tell me the scripture where your bible says that you "ENTERED THE FAMILIY OF THE GOD OF ABRAHAM"+(You need to be of the people of Abraham before you belong to the people of the God of Abraham, you need to be circumcised),,,,You say:<<"The only thing that counts is faith working through love. " Gal 6:5>> 1 JOhn 5: 3 And this is how "WE THE SPIRITUAL JEWS 'THE REMNANT' know how is that we love Our God, the God of Abraham, when we "OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS"..Do you Obey His Commandments?? Are you circumcised?!!! Are you Santified, Are you PURIFIED, are you JUSTIFIED, etc. etc...You say:<<the obligation to be personally righteous does not go away with faith under the New Covenant, but, in fact, the very means to finally attaining righteousness is now provided:<< If it was so,,,So would have done all that...Read Romanas 15:15-17 + Acts 15:9, 17-18 + 2 Thess. 2:13-15 + 1 Peter 1:3...Tell me now?!! Do your bible says that you belong to the God of Abraham, or to jehovah, yahweh, yaveh, baphomet,=lucifer the "FALSE CHRIST"= Matthew 24:4; 23-25..See!! Brother James....

Not sure at all what you're attempting to express here but Scripture is quite clear on how we enter God's family, and that we must refrain from sin:
"But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God—children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God." John 1:12

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. " Gal 6:7-8

"But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in Him is no sin. No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." 1 John 5:6

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15

If you're defending sola fide against what I've said, you're only highlighting the absurdity of the doctrine as some have interpreted it. Are you saying that it's alright to sin now under the New Covenant? And, if not, is there still some amount of sin that is alright, beyond which it's not alright? Does no degree of sin, regardless of how heinous, any longer earn us death as long as we believe?? What depths would Christianity fall to if it were to make the requirement to love, to fulfill the greatest commandments, a doctrine of satan?

You should read 2 Thess. 2:13-15 for yourself BTW:
"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

 

[Hermit76]

Catholics don't do either Arminian or Calvinist. Neither are us. What can end up happening if you guys try to pigeon-hole us into your familiar categories is you misunderstand us. Of course the last 500 years has been a continual misunderstanding.

Same with Orthodox

 

[Mountainmike]

Santiago.

your method of quoting or annotating makes this impossible to read or understand. Use proper quoting, line or paragraph breaks and just maybe we can discuss it.

Start by explaining why what authority you think your interpretation of scripture is better than the apostles such as John, his disciples , the meanings the councils decree with the power given to them by Jesus to “ bind and loose” which are the opinions therefore of “ the pillar and foundation of truth” which scripture says is the physical “ church, the household of God” indeed the faith handed down “ paradosis” to which Paul says we must “ stay true” which is the word translated as “tradition” which is emphasised by those in the early church outing heresy such as iraneus as is looking to Rome for statement on doctrine.

The first canon was outlawed by Rome, as heretical only later did council decide the New Testament.

If you sweep away the early fathers, you also sweep away the New Testament.

Hello Mountainmike.. The Peace of Jesus, The "Jewish Christ", who is the Holy Spirit, The Eternal Father, Son of God and Son of man...The God of Abraham and the Living God in His human nature, be with you...You say:<<Jesus says “ do this “ of many things, see sheep and goats and “ eat my flesh” are just some.<< Jesus was talking to literal jews who were under the law of Moses still...You say:<<None are good enough to merit salvation: but ignoring ordinances , or challenging Him on theology, to decide what is necessary would not be a a good conversation!... Your own bible says how you can be saved?!! BUT!! lucifer doesn't wants that!!!! can you see it?!!!!You say:<<<We are saved by grace.<< ONLY A REMNANT OF SPIRITUAL JEWS ARE SAVED BY GRACE!!!! OR!! Put the scriprture, scriptures where your bible or anyother bible says that you gentile are save "BY GRACE"==Read..Romans 15:15-17 + Acts 15:9; 17-18...Then 2 Thesss. 2:13-15 + 1 Peter 1:2.. Tell me what "DOES YOUR OWN BIBLE SAYS MIKE!!!!....Brother James...

 

[PaulCyp1]

The Catholic Church has consistently taught for 2,000 years that salvation is a free gift of God which He alone can provide, which cannot be earned or merited. When we accept His gift we are saved. And when we are saved, our lives become transformed. We live according to His will, not according to our own will and our own preferences. We do the works that God calls us to do, especially caring for those of His beloved children who are in need. Therefore, while works cannot "earn" salvation, they are a necessary indicator of salvation. Someone who claims to be saved, but doesn't care about others who are less fortunate, is deluding themselves.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

For the OP, you might be better off posting this question in the Eastern Orthodox or Catholic sections if you want answers from just EO or RC posters. We tend to get into some nuances that don't get overwhelmed in General Theology.

 

[Magnanimity]

I am not a Calvinist and neither do I believe they invented in trusting in the Holy Scriptures alone

It’s just an impossible endeavor. You assert that you can trust in the scriptures alone, but what are the scriptures and where did they come from?

The problem with your belief is that you want traditions to be on the same level as God's Holy Word (the Scriptures)

and you want to deny (without justification) that you adhere to traditions. If you affirm that Jesus of Nazareth is fully God and fully man you adhere to the Niceno-Constantinoplan tradition. The history of the church has been filled with important controversies, many of which were eventually settled in councils. That’s the historical data. Whether or not you are aware of being a benefactor of the early church is another matter..

 

[Guojing]

You should. All Scripture is inspired, as they say. But that verse was written by a Jew named Paul to a Jew named Timothy. So does that apply or not apply to you?

Do you build an ark when you read God commanding Noah to build one, because "All scripture is inspired"?