• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

keepitsimple144

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2024
531
73
midwest
✟22,048.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It was not, at the beginning of Acts 10, Peter was reluctant to go to Cornelius house and even told him its unlawful for Jews and gentiles to associate.
Nevertheless it dawned on him that God saves both Jews and gentiles prior to your random time setting of Acts 15.
So Peter could not have received the same revelation Paul received during Acts 2. That is my point.
The point is that there is no private interpretation...they were all under the power of the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:17-21

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph 4:5-6
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,057
1,398
sg
✟271,603.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The point is that there is no private interpretation...they were all under the power of the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:17-21

You are not addressing my point, but since we are going around in circles, we can agree to disagree and move on, thanks.
 
Upvote 0

keepitsimple144

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2024
531
73
midwest
✟22,048.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The point is that there is no private interpretation...they were all under the power of the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:17-21
You are not addressing my point, but since we are going around in circles, we can agree to disagree and move on, thanks.
Going around in circles gets you nowhere.

Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” ...
And on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:16-18

Coming to Him the living Stone 1 Peter 2:4-10

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, 1 John 5:1
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Dan Perez

Well-Known Member
Dec 13, 2018
4,247
362
88
Arcadia
✟254,696.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Nevertheless it dawned on him that God saves both Jews and gentiles prior to your random time setting of Acts 15.

The point is that there is no private interpretation...they were all under the power of the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:17-21

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph 4:5-6
And 2 Peter I:20 and 21 is talking about PROPHECY is of any PRIVATE INTERTATION , ONLY !!

And verse 20 , says that Prophecy CAME NOT // ME , is a DISJUNCAIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE

and meaning it NEVERRRRRRR came by the will OF MAN , but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the
HOLY SPIRIT .


dan p
 
Upvote 0

keepitsimple144

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2024
531
73
midwest
✟22,048.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And 2 Peter I:20 and 21 is talking about PROPHECY is of any PRIVATE INTERTATION , ONLY !!

And verse 20 , says that Prophecy CAME NOT // ME , is a DISJUNCAIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE

and meaning it NEVERRRRRRR came by the will OF MAN , but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the
HOLY SPIRIT .
For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 2 Peter 1:16-19
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,515
29,010
Pacific Northwest
✟811,890.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Correct. Water baptism is an outward symbol, but it not required.

I say this with intentional charity: Can you offer any biblical support for this statement?

Some background: this is what I grew up believing as well. It's the reason why I didn't get baptized until I was 17 years old, because I had been taught that baptism wasn't necessary in anyway, but just an outward symbol and a public affirmation of my faith. I trusted my teachers and pastors who told me this, and when as a child I had read passages in Scripture which seemed to indicate that baptism was really important, those teachers and pastors convinced me that I was reading it wrong and that baptism was just an outward symbol.

It's a position I, then, became convinced of in my youth, throughout childhood and adolescence, and into my early 20's.

The problem is that I think my first impressions when, as a child reading those passages of Scripture, were probably more accurate: And that the meaning and significance of Baptism can be found by a plain and straightforward reading of the Bible.

It really appears to me, now, that the "outward symbol" argument is one that is not biblically defensible, but rather stems from a desire to avoid the plain meaning of Scripture because many do not know how to reconcile elements of their theology with what the Bible says about baptism.

By that I mean this: Many do not know how to reconcile a belief in salvation by grace alone through faith alone with the biblical teaching on baptism; because they assume that baptism is a "work", and since works can't save us, then baptism must not play any role in our salvation.

This objection appears to be centered upon a single mistaken premise, that baptism is a work, i.e. something we do for God. And a secondary wrong assumption: physical, tangible, and material reality is inferior to spiritual, invisible, immaterial reality--ergo since baptism involves the body, and physical water, and there is ritual build up around it it therefore must not be a God thing, but a man thing.

Challenge: Is it not the case, throughout Scripture, that God works through material, visible, and physical means to accomplish His purposes, His work? When Naaman dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, was it God or Naaman who worked to cure Naaman's leprosy? When the Lord Jesus took a bit of dirt and His own saliva turning it into mud and applied it to the blind man's eyes, what happened? What kind of work was it that cured blindness? When the woman with a problem with bleeding touched the fringes of the Lord's clothes, what happened?

I often see some go so far as to mock, saying "Water can't save anyone", and I'd agree. Also, water can't cure leprosy, dirt and spit can't cure blindness, and fringes on clothes can't cure people either. And neither can bronze serpents save people from deadly snake bites. And yet throughout the Bible God works through visible, physical, material means to accomplish His works.

If Baptism, therefore, is not our work, but God's work; if the water is the physical, material, and visible means which God uses to do something--to act, to accomplish His work--then that means baptism isn't about works but grace. "By grace you have been saved, through faith" is not in opposition to, but is fully in agreement and attached to, "baptism now saves us" (1 Peter 3:21).

Because Baptism isn't an outward symbol, a human work we do for God, or for ourselves, or for others; but is God's work, a gift and precious means through which God operates, and which the promises of God are attached. So, therefore, when Paul writes in Galatians 3:27 "all of you who were baptized into Christ have been clothed with Christ", Paul really means what he says. In baptism, we have put on Christ as a garment, we are clothed with Jesus, we have received His righteousness as a pure gift, as grace, through faith, to be declared and reckoned righteous before God on Christ's account. Baptism does not merely represent this, Baptism does this.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Like
Reactions: Prospector
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,387
7,699
25
WI
✟644,618.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I say this with intentional charity: Can you offer any biblical support for this statement?

Some background: this is what I grew up believing as well. It's the reason why I didn't get baptized until I was 17 years old, because I had been taught that baptism wasn't necessary in anyway, but just an outward symbol and a public affirmation of my faith. I trusted my teachers and pastors who told me this, and when as a child I had read passages in Scripture which seemed to indicate that baptism was really important, those teachers and pastors convinced me that I was reading it wrong and that baptism was just an outward symbol.

It's a position I, then, became convinced of in my youth, throughout childhood and adolescence, and into my early 20's.

The problem is that I think my first impressions when, as a child reading those passages of Scripture, were probably more accurate: And that the meaning and significance of Baptism can be found by a plain and straightforward reading of the Bible.

It really appears to me, now, that the "outward symbol" argument is one that is not biblically defensible, but rather stems from a desire to avoid the plain meaning of Scripture because many do not know how to reconcile elements of their theology with what the Bible says about baptism.

By that I mean this: Many do not know how to reconcile a belief in salvation by grace alone through faith alone with the biblical teaching on baptism; because they assume that baptism is a "work", and since works can't save us, then baptism must not play any role in our salvation.

This objection appears to be centered upon a single mistaken premise, that baptism is a work, i.e. something we do for God. And a secondary wrong assumption: physical, tangible, and material reality is inferior to spiritual, invisible, immaterial reality--ergo since baptism involves the body, and physical water, and there is ritual build up around it it therefore must not be a God thing, but a man thing.

Challenge: Is it not the case, throughout Scripture, that God works through material, visible, and physical means to accomplish His purposes, His work? When Naaman dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, was it God or Naaman who worked to cure Naaman's leprosy? When the Lord Jesus took a bit of dirt and His own saliva turning it into mud and applied it to the blind man's eyes, what happened? What kind of work was it that cured blindness? When the woman with a problem with bleeding touched the fringes of the Lord's clothes, what happened?

I often see some go so far as to mock, saying "Water can't save anyone", and I'd agree. Also, water can't cure leprosy, dirt and spit can't cure blindness, and fringes on clothes can't cure people either. And neither can bronze serpents save people from deadly snake bites. And yet throughout the Bible God works through visible, physical, material means to accomplish His works.

If Baptism, therefore, is not our work, but God's work; if the water is the physical, material, and visible means which God uses to do something--to act, to accomplish His work--then that means baptism isn't about works but grace. "By grace you have been saved, through faith" is not in opposition to, but is fully in agreement and attached to, "baptism now saves us" (1 Peter 3:21).

Because Baptism isn't an outward symbol, a human work we do for God, or for ourselves, or for others; but is God's work, a gift and precious means through which God operates, and which the promises of God are attached. So, therefore, when Paul writes in Galatians 3:27 "all of you who were baptized into Christ have been clothed with Christ", Paul really means what he says. In baptism, we have put on Christ as a garment, we are clothed with Jesus, we have received His righteousness as a pure gift, as grace, through faith, to be declared and reckoned righteous before God on Christ's account. Baptism does not merely represent this, Baptism does this.

-CryptoLutheran
I prefer not talking about this. God bless. There are plenty better fish to fry, such as preaching the Gospel, and getting more people into the faith instead of debating nuances on water.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,515
29,010
Pacific Northwest
✟811,890.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I prefer not talking about this. God bless. There are plenty better fish to fry, such as preaching the Gospel, and getting more people into the faith instead of debating nuances on water.

I won't push or pressure you to involve yourself in a discussion you don't want to discuss. But I invite you, just for yourself, test what I've said against Scripture. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Let God be true and every man a liar. But I would also invite you to consider this: What is the view which the earliest Christian witnesses have had on this subject? Just be open, listen to the voices of the saints down through history, and weigh the words of Scripture carefully.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,387
7,699
25
WI
✟644,618.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I won't push or pressure you to involve yourself in a discussion you don't want to discuss. But I invite you, just for yourself, test what I've said against Scripture. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Let God be true and every man a liar. But I would also invite you to consider this: What is the view which the earliest Christian witnesses have had on this subject? Just be open, listen to the voices of the saints down through history, and weigh the words of Scripture carefully.

-CryptoLutheran
This stuff is kinda boring. I'd rather focus on analyzing verses about protecting people from the worldly agendas.
 
Upvote 0

keepitsimple144

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2024
531
73
midwest
✟22,048.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Because Baptism isn't an outward symbol, a human work we do for God, or for ourselves, or for others; but is God's work, a gift and precious means through which God operates, and which the promises of God are attached. So, therefore, when Paul writes in Galatians 3:27 "all of you who were baptized into Christ have been clothed with Christ", Paul really means what he says. In baptism, we have put on Christ as a garment, we are clothed with Jesus, we have received His righteousness as a pure gift, as grace, through faith, to be declared and reckoned righteous before God on Christ's account. Baptism does not merely represent this, Baptism does this.
What about the thief, would you agree that he was baptized into His death and guaranteed to walk with Him in paradise, newness of life?

Are you unaware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
So that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory and power of the Father, we too walk in newness of life. Rom 6:3-4

Christ has reconciled you to God in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight; Col 1:21-22
... I would also invite you to consider this: What is the view which the earliest Christian witnesses have had on this subject?
So Christ was offered once to take away the sins of many, and he will appear a second time—without sin—unto salvation... Hebrews 9:28
Remember me, O Lord, with the favor You have toward Your people.
Oh, visit me with Your salvation, That I may see the benefit of Your chosen ones,
That I may rejoice in the gladness of Your nation,That I may glory with Your inheritance. Psalm 106:4-5
For the Lord God is a sun and shield; the Lord gives us grace and glory. He does not hold back anything good from those whose walk is blameless. Psalm 84:11
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,057
1,398
sg
✟271,603.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
By that I mean this: Many do not know how to reconcile a belief in salvation by grace alone through faith alone with the biblical teaching on baptism; because they assume that baptism is a "work", and since works can't save us, then baptism must not play any role in our salvation.

-CryptoLutheran

So the key question is,

if you meet someone who believes Christ died for his sins and rose on the 3rd day from the dead, aka 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but he never got around to be water baptized,

would you say he is saved?

Conversely, if you meet someone who is confident he is saved and when you ask him why, he said, "Its because I have been water baptized", would you be happy with that kind of confidence?
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,515
29,010
Pacific Northwest
✟811,890.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
What about the thief, would you agree that he was baptized into His death and guaranteed to walk with Him in paradise, newness of life?

The thief wasn't baptized, he literally couldn't be. For one, he was on a cross next to Jesus, and for another, the Lord didn't institute Baptism until after His resurrection (see Matthew 28:19).

The thief was saved because the Son of God told him, "Today you will be with me in Paradise". We don't need to look for anything else other than what the Lord Himself said.


Are you unaware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
So that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory and power of the Father, we too walk in newness of life. Rom 6:3-4

The thief wasn't baptized. But all who enter into faith through Baptism have indeed been baptized into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. Even as we have been buried with Christ in our baptism, having died with Christ, so too do we share in His life and the power of His resurrection. That's what Regeneration is, new birth. We are new creations in Christ, the adopted children of God by grace, co-heirs with Christ.

Is this less true of the thief? No. It's not less true of any believing Christian either.

The promises attached to Baptism are true, but that doesn't mean that God can only use Baptism. Because, obviously, He's God. And also, salvation isn't some formula or system, it's the power, gift, and work of God which He does through His own Means.

It's all about grace.

Christ has reconciled you to God in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight; Col 1:21-22

So Christ was offered once to take away the sins of many, and he will appear a second time—without sin—unto salvation... Hebrews 9:28
Remember me, O Lord, with the favor You have toward Your people.
Oh, visit me with Your salvation, That I may see the benefit of Your chosen ones,
That I may rejoice in the gladness of Your nation,That I may glory with Your inheritance. Psalm 106:4-5
For the Lord God is a sun and shield; the Lord gives us grace and glory. He does not hold back anything good from those whose walk is blameless. Psalm 84:11

Absolutely.

And the ordinary way we are brought into this Sacred Mystery of life in Christ is the Sacrament of Holy Baptism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,515
29,010
Pacific Northwest
✟811,890.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
So the key question is,

if you meet someone who believes Christ died for his sins and rose on the 3rd day from the dead, aka 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but he never got around to be water baptized,

would you say he is saved?

Yes, he is saved.

Conversely, if you meet someone who is confident he is saved and when you ask him why, he said, "Its because I have been water baptized", would you be happy with that kind of confidence?

Yes, we should have that kind of confidence in God's promises. The Gospel gives us that confidence in God's grace.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,057
1,398
sg
✟271,603.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, we should have that kind of confidence in God's promises. The Gospel gives us that confidence in God's grace.

-CryptoLutheran

But the source of his confidence is "Its because I have been water baptized".
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,515
29,010
Pacific Northwest
✟811,890.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
If that is the case, then you regard water baptism as sufficient for salvation.

We are talking about a Christian right? A person who has faith in Jesus, yes? Okay, good, then yes. A Christian should be able to point to their baptism and be able to say, "This is where God claimed me as His own".

So, yes, I believe that God's work of saving people is sufficient to save them.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

keepitsimple144

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2024
531
73
midwest
✟22,048.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The thief wasn't baptized, he literally couldn't be. For one, he was on a cross next to Jesus, and for another, the Lord didn't institute Baptism until after His resurrection (see Matthew 28:19). The thief was saved because the Son of God told him, "Today you will be with me in Paradise". We don't need to look for anything else other than what the Lord Himself said.
The thief wasn't literally baptized in a water ritual and yet he renounced his deeds and relied on Christ, (baptism of repentance Matt 3:11, Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16, Acts 19:4).
We are new creations in Christ, the adopted children of God by grace, co-heirs with Christ.
Is this less true of the thief? No. It's not less true of any believing Christian either.
The reality is that the thief became a new creation after his literal death, whereas, believing Christians are baptized into Christ
now that faith has come...Gal 3:25-29 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 2 Cor 5:15
It's all about grace.
For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—1 Cor 12:13 The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, Gal 2:20
And the ordinary way we are brought into this Sacred Mystery of life in Christ is the Sacrament of Holy Baptism.
If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. Rom 14:8-9

Children of the living God
Sing to the living God
How He loves us with great love
He who sits enthroned above
For our lives he shed his blood
Sent His Spirit like a flood
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,057
1,398
sg
✟271,603.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We are talking about a Christian right? A person who has faith in Jesus, yes? Okay, good, then yes. A Christian should be able to point to their baptism and be able to say, "This is where God claimed me as His own".

So, yes, I believe that God's work of saving people is sufficient to save them.

-CryptoLutheran

What exactly do you mean when you said someone has "faith in Jesus"?
 
Upvote 0

keepitsimple144

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2024
531
73
midwest
✟22,048.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What exactly do you mean when you said someone has "faith in Jesus"?
That in Him is full redemption; Psalm 130:7
To the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In Him we have redemption through his blood; Eph 1:6-7
 
Upvote 0