Questions to Catholics and Orthodox: Re: Works/Salvation?

[fhansen]

I’m not trying promote disobedience, yet since we all fall short of sinless perfection, what is the passing grade if salvation is based on a combination of faith and works?

Ok, but then I must still reciprocate with, what is the failing grade? Can we sin wantonly now or not? Where do you draw the line in the sand? No line?

Catholicism draws the line where Scripture draws it: people who persist in sin so serious as to gravely oppose love of God and neighbor, "sin that leads to death", is a fairly sure guide that we've already rejected and disconnected ourselves from the God who, alone, can save us.

 

[Danthemailman]

Ok, but then I must still reciprocate with, what is the failing grade? Can we sin wantonly now or not? Where do you draw the line in the sand? No line?

Catholicism draws the line where Scripture draws it: people who persist in sin so serious as to gravely oppose love of God and neighbor, "sin that leads to death", is a fairly sure guide that we've already rejected and disconnected ourselves from the God who, alone, can save us.

Jesus drew the line in the sand in John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. People who persist in sin so serious as to oppose the love of God demonstrate that they are not born of God. (1 John 2:9-11; 3:9-10; 4:7-8)

 

[fhansen]

Jesus drew the line in the sand in John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Of course they're not condemned, but because of what this new relationship established by faith entails: the righteous life, flowing from God, that is now finally possible. Justification is intrinsically bound up with being set free from sin, not just forgiven of it:

“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it.” Rom 3:21

“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21

“For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.” Rom 6:6

“Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?” Rom 6:16

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." Gal 6:7-9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 1:3:9-10

People who persist in sin so serious as to oppose the love of God demonstrate that they are not born of God. (1 John 2:9-11; 3:9-10; 4:7-8)

That concept is really quite speculative-we'll all continue to struggle against sin. It's more likely that they were a branch grafted in and later cut back off- that they had tasted of the heavenly gift but later rejected it.
"If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22

 

[Guojing]

Let me turn that around. Is disobedience ok now? If so, how disobedient we can we be? In Catholicism absolute perfection would be preferred, of course-while not required or expected-but while we're not expected to finish the journey we must at least truly be on it and then, at the end of the day, God judges how well we've completed the course with whatever we've been given to enable that to happen.

Does your last sentence means most Catholics can never be absolutely sure they are saved at the end?

That is the impression when I was talking to my Catholic friends, their attitude seems to be "I will try my best (to be good) and let God do the rest".

 

[Danthemailman]

Does your last sentence means most Catholics can never be absolutely sure they are saved at the end?

That is the impression when I was talking to my Catholic friends, their attitude seems to be "I will try my best (to be good) and let God do the rest".

That basically sums it up.

 

[fhansen]

Does your last sentence means most Catholics can never be absolutely sure they are saved at the end?

That is the impression when I was talking to my Catholic friends, their attitude seems to be "I will try my best (to be good) and let God do the rest".

Yes, OSAS is a pretty gross error, along with the doctrine of a strictly imputed righteousness. We can have a strong yet guarded level of assurance based on: God's goodness and trustworthiness together with evidence of fruit in our lives- just not 100% certainty. We're the wild card in it all so in light of human limitations, weaknesses, sinfulness, ignorance, etc, we should still, in humility, have a somewhat guarded assurance. And in real life I think we all know that intuitively anyway, and the average Protestant lives with at least some degree of healthy uncertainty if he's honest. God, alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not-while Scripture maintains that not all who think they're saved-are saved. As James affirms, and as Paul and John affirm in the passages I quoted, what we do counts. And any careful and objective reading of those passages can demonstrate that. But also all the other verses that instruct, exhort, encourage, warn, and admonish believers to be vigilant, remain in Christ, persevere, strive, do good, refrain from sin, live in the Spirit, etc, with eternal life at stake. Otherwise, we can just ignore those if we prefer.

Another way to put all this: When God justifies man He really makes him just: forgiving, washing, cleansing, and making a new creation. Man, now under grace, in union with his Creator whom He was previously dead to (that relationship, itself, being the essence and basis of man's justice or righteousness), has the capability to become who he was created to be, to, for one, put to death sin, the deeds of the flesh, by the Spirit of God. But that action is an obligation, that we can still shirk even though it's absolutely impossible to achieve apart from Him. The obligation for man to be personally righteous in his thoughts and deeds does not go away with the New Covenant IOW, but now he's simply finally found the only authentic means to fulfill this obligation, by the power of God through communion with Him. Faith is the difference, the difference that makes that direct connection.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33

Adam thought he'd be better off going it alone. We're here to learn how wrong Adam was. Because:
"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, OSAS is a pretty gross error, along with the doctrine of a strictly imputed righteousness. We can have a strong yet guarded level of assurance based on: God's goodness and trustworthiness together with evidence of fruit in our lives- just not 100% certainty. We're the wild card in it all so in light of human limitations, weaknesses, sinfulness, ignorance, etc, we should still, in humility, have a guarded assurance. And in real life I think we all know that intuitively anyway, and the average Protestant lives with at least some degree of healthy uncertainty if he's honest. God, alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not-while Scripture maintains that not all who think they're saved-are saved. As James affirms, and as Paul and John affirm in the passages I quoted, what we do counts. And any careful and objective reading of those passages can demonstrate that. But also all the other verses that instruct, exhort, encourage, warn, and admonish believers to be vigilant, remain in Christ, persevere, strive, do good, refrain from sin, live in the Spirit, etc. Otherwise, we can just ignore those if we prefer.

Another way to put all this: When God justifies man He really makes him just: forgiving, washing, cleansing, and making a new creation. Man, now under grace, in union with his Creator whom He was previously dead to (that relationship, itself, being the essence and basis of man's justice or righteousness), has the capability to become who he was created to be, to, for one, put to death sin, the deeds of the flesh, by the Spirit of God. But that action is an obligation, that we can still shirk even though it's absolutely impossible to achieve apart from Him. The obligation for man to be personally righteous in his thoughts and deeds does not go away with the New Covenant IOW, but now he's simply finally found the only authentic means to fulfill this obligation, by the power of God through communion with Him. Faith is the difference, the difference that makes that direct connection.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." 31:33

Adam thought he'd be better off going it alone. We're here to learn how wrong Adam was. Because:
"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

The bottom line, indeed, is that the RCC keeps its members in a perpetual state of spiritual anxiety, making Jesus Christ into a very stern taskmaster and not the Savior of sinners.

 

[fhansen]

The bottom line, indeed, is that the RCC keeps its members in a perpetual state of spiritual anxiety, making Jesus Christ into a very stern taskmaster and not the Savior of sinners.

Haven't experienced it that way here, but, if you say so. Catholicism really just presents the most sound and balanced theology on justification, with the exception of the eastern churches. But it's certainly not the "chill, dude" brand of "Christianity": "Jesus did it all so we can do whatever we want; He certainly wouldn't want to burden us with actually having to do the right thing, would He, worthless wretches that we are? Even if He did say something about a burden; His burden being light, I think. But, just chill."

In truth Catholicism speaks more about the love of God than most denominations I've associated with. It's just that love is also an obligation for man, for our own good, because God wants the best for us and has been patiently working on drawing man to that light, to love as He does, since the beginning. And love is necessarily a choice, or it isn't love, even as we need grace in order to aid us in making the choice and obtaining that love, and growing in it. If Adam had possessed it in Eden his obedience would've flowed of its own accord. He apparently wasn't ready for that yet, however. Anyway, as we encounter the true God we come to know His love that much more fully, and we'll come to understand the meaning of these words that sum up the goal of our Christian faith and the New Covenant:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

 

[bbbbbbb]

Haven't experienced it that way here, but, if you say so. Catholicism really just presents the most sound and balanced theology on justification. But it's certainly not the "chill, dude" brand of "Christianity": "Jesus did it all so we can do whatever we want; He certainly wouldn't want to burden us with actually having to do the right thing, would He, worthless wretches that we are? Even if He did say something about a burden; His burden being light, I think. But just chill."

In truth Catholicism speaks more about the love of God than most denominations I've associated with. It's just that love is also an obligation for man, for our own good, because God wants the best for us and has been patiently working on drawing man to that light, to love as He does, since the beginning. And love is necessarily a choice, or it isn't love, even as we need grace in order to aid us in making the choice and obtaining it, and growing in it. If Adam had possessed it in Eden his obedience would've flowed of its own accord. He apparently wasn't ready for that yet, however. Anyway, as we encounter the true God we come to know His love that much more fully, and we'll come to understand the meaning of these words that sum up the goal of our Christian faith and the New Covenant:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

That is quite interesting. In the Catholic culture I was raised in, salvation was generally perceived as something unattainable with the result being that most Catholics simply gave up striving and were content to go with the flow, doing the minimal things required by their church and otherwise living generally happy, secular lives.

 

[fhansen]

That is quite interesting. In the Catholic culture I was raised in, salvation was generally perceived as something unattainable with the result being that most Catholics simply gave up striving and were content to go with the flow, doing the minimal things required by their church and otherwise living generally happy, secular lives.

Well due the fact that Christianity had been a cultural norm for so many centuries, there are lots of "cultural Catholics" out there who don't take the faith very seriously and/or practice it quite mechanically as I've seen it. Protestantism experiences the same phenomenon more or less. And I think that Catholicism has begotten more over-scrupulosity-but mainly by people not knowing their faith.

I was raised Catholic, left the Church for many years, lived as a Protestant for quite some time and was surprised to find myself back at the doors of the CC some decades later. At the end of the day it's all about our knowledge of God. And in studying Catholic teaching for myself I found that the church's teachings on the nature and will of God, along with the nature of man and truths regarding his fallen nature and God's plan for resolving that problem, line up best with experience and Scripture. And those teachings are the real treasure IMO.

Either way, the idea that man must play his role, no matter how small relatively speaking; that he must strive, persevere, persist, be vigilant, etc, is thoroughly Scriptural-and not something guaranteed to be done once justified.

 

[Mountainmike]

Well due the fact that Christianity had been a cultural norm for so many centuries, there are lots of "cultural Catholics" out there who don't take the faith very seriously and/or practice it quite mechanically as I've seen it. Protestantism experiences the same phenomenon more or less. And I think that Catholicism has begotten more over-scrupulosity-but mainly by people not knowing their faith.

I was raised Catholic, left the Church for many years, lived as a Protestant for quite some time and was surprised to find myself back at the doors of the CC some decades later. At the end of the day it's all about our knowledge of God. And in studying Catholic teaching for myself I found that the church's teachings on the nature and will of God, along with the nature of man and truths regarding his fallen nature and God's plan for resolving that problem, line up best with experience and Scripture. And those teachings are the real treasure IMO.

Either way, the idea that man must play his role, no matter how small relatively speaking; that he must strive, persevere, persist, be vigilant, etc, is thoroughly Scriptural-and not something guaranteed to be done once justified.

As an outsider I found cradle catholic’s we’re not very well catechised. As a protestant I asked genuine searching questions, ( not gotchas) but didn’t get reliable answers. It was the alignment of early fathers with catholic teaching that did it for me,

I couldn’t help notice your signature from Teresa of Avila one of my favourite authors.

This story makes her so human! She was having a problem with flooded roads, and everything that could go wrong did,

Oh, my Lord!” she exclaimed, with her usual loving familiarity, “when wilt Thou cease from scattering obstacles in our path?” “Do not complain, daughter,” the Divine Master answered, “for it is ever thus that I treat My friends.”

“Ah, Lord, it is also on that account that Thou hast so few!” was her reply.

 

[fhansen]

As an outsider I found cradle catholic’s we’re not very well catechised. As a protestant I asked genuine searching questions, ( not gotchas) but didn’t get reliable answers. It was the alignment of early fathers with catholic teaching that did it for me,

I couldn’t help notice your signature from Teresa of Avila one of my favourite authors.

This story makes her so human! She was having a problem with flooded roads, and everything that could go wrong did,

Oh, my Lord!” she exclaimed, with her usual loving familiarity, “when wilt Thou cease from scattering obstacles in our path?” “Do not complain, daughter,” the Divine Master answered, “for it is ever thus that I treat My friends.”

“Ah, Lord, it is also on that account that Thou hast so few!” was her reply.

Yes, that's a great story. And she was one of the most practical and hard-working saints I've encountered while arguably the most spiritual at the same time.

And yes, the ECFs played their role in my appreciation of Catholicism, along with studying the decrees, etc, of various councils, early church histories, Augustine, Aquinas, theological works on Catholic dogma, etc, etc.