Questions/Ramblings about an omnipotent God

[Naked Halo]

Hi brand new here, so hello all!

I have some very simple probably ill conceived questions that I was hoping you might be able to help me with, this seemed to me like a place that could provide some answers so I hope you do not mind.

Can a God with omniscience and omnipotence ever be disappointed? I know this a somewhat facetious question and we are not meant to know God's Will, but I have to ask. How can anything happen that isn't part of God's agenda? It is my understanding that it cannot otherwise the whole concept of Christianity would fall apart. So it would not be a large leap to say that everything that has happened and will happen, occurs only because He wills it or is at the very least is indifferent. I cannot see our planet as some grand experiment or test simply because it would be pointless or some might think sadistic, God would already know the results before he even created Earth.

I would have to go with it all being part of God's agenda rather than some sort of arbitrary test because the latter thought scares the daylight out of me. I get that we aren't supposed to know his Will, and to bring up one of the simplest atheist arguments, why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? I'll mark it down to we aren't supposed to understand why. This, though, I think takes away the concept of free will, things happen because that's the way they are supposed to happen. A man walks into a school and shoots 3 people. That happened because it was God's Will and we aren't supposed to know why or understand it, but would it be fair to say that the shooter just acted out God's Will? It's obvious that God wanted those 3 people to be shot, because it was allowed to happen. If this is true then we lose all accountability for our actions and it scares me. I used to read news stories of mothers driving their vans into a lakes with the kids still inside because she said God told her to do it. I used to think oh she's just crazy, now I think "oh God what if she's right?"

Sorry for my inane ramblings, I guess my final question is "Can anything happen in this world happen outside of God's will?"

And also just so it clear I'm not here to troll as I believe its called, these are genuine questions I have (as inept as they might seem) and I know my profile says I'm agnostic, but I would like to be Christian there's just some things that I don't understand sufficiently enough to through in my lot just yet. Anyway thanks for taking the time to read!

 

[fm107]

Hi Halo,

"Can a God with omniscience and omnipotence ever be disappointed?"

Yes, God can be. I shall give you an example from scripture which comes to mind:

Genesis 6:6
The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

Here in Genesis we are told of how God regreted making man - he was so disappointed because of how people just wanted to do evil all the time.

There are others which come to mind in the Gospels:

Matthew 17:17
"O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me."

Jesus is disappointed here by the lack of faith his disciples had.

Luke 24:25
He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

Jesus had risen from the dead at this time but the disciples still did not realise the necessity of the surrerings of Christ.

Often throughout scripture we can read about God's emotions.

...................................................................................................

With regards to God's will, I believe you are a bit mixed up here.

God allows things to happen - this does not necesserely mean it is his will.

The story you mentioned about the woman driving her car in lakes reminds me of the scripture in Matthew:

Matthew 28:34
When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”
Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”

He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.

In this passage it shows that Jesus allowed for these demons to go into the herd of pigs - it probably was not his will but he allowed it to happen.

I hope this helps answer your queries.

 

[Naked Halo]

Thank you for your reply Fm107!

I guess my problem/question boils down to if God is omnipotent doesn't it stand that when he is disappointed he is only disappointed because he allows it and wills it?
In your example of Genesis 6:6 God knew what would happen when he created man before he did it, yet subjected himself to it for reason beyond our understanding. So the pain he felt in his heart wasn't that he created man, rather that he allowed himself to feel pain.


I know it seems like an inane topic, but I guess when it comes to an idea like omnipotence I would have to consider allowance of things happening the same as it being his Will. If everything happens according to his agenda and he is omnipotent then it stands that nothing could ever go not according to plan or somehow not be part if his endgame. If anything ever would go seemingly go against it it only would seem to do so as his allowance of it is the only reason it happens and if he wanted to change it he would.


Maybe I'm just hung up on the idea of allowance being different then Will, but when it comes to God how can anything be not part of will plan?

 

[freeport]

Hi brand new here, so hello all!

I have some very simple probably ill conceived questions that I was hoping you might be able to help me with, this seemed to me like a place that could provide some answers so I hope you do not mind.

Can a God with omniscience and omnipotence ever be disappointed? I know this a somewhat facetious question and we are not meant to know God's Will, but I have to ask. How can anything happen that isn't part of God's agenda? It is my understanding that it cannot otherwise the whole concept of Christianity would fall apart. So it would not be a large leap to say that everything that has happened and will happen, occurs only because He wills it or is at the very least is indifferent. I cannot see our planet as some grand experiment or test simply because it would be pointless or some might think sadistic, God would already know the results before he even created Earth.

I would have to go with it all being part of God's agenda rather than some sort of arbitrary test because the latter thought scares the daylight out of me. I get that we aren't supposed to know his Will, and to bring up one of the simplest atheist arguments, why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? I'll mark it down to we aren't supposed to understand why. This, though, I think takes away the concept of free will, things happen because that's the way they are supposed to happen. A man walks into a school and shoots 3 people. That happened because it was God's Will and we aren't supposed to know why or understand it, but would it be fair to say that the shooter just acted out God's Will? It's obvious that God wanted those 3 people to be shot, because it was allowed to happen. If this is true then we lose all accountability for our actions and it scares me. I used to read news stories of mothers driving their vans into a lakes with the kids still inside because she said God told her to do it. I used to think oh she's just crazy, now I think "oh God what if she's right?"

Sorry for my inane ramblings, I guess my final question is "Can anything happen in this world happen outside of God's will?"

And also just so it clear I'm not here to troll as I believe its called, these are genuine questions I have (as inept as they might seem) and I know my profile says I'm agnostic, but I would like to be Christian there's just some things that I don't understand sufficiently enough to through in my lot just yet. Anyway thanks for taking the time to read!

Way too many assumptions.

Let me clear up the picture here. Whoever is telling you 'we are not supposed to know God's will' is lying to you. Big lie.

As for all of creation being a "test", also a big lie.


Sorry.

Sure, some people hate their life so much to kill themselves.


Kids scream about the smallest things. They do not understand their parents will and demands. Same thing with people.

 

[Naked Halo]

Way too many assumptions.

Let me clear up the picture here. Whoever is telling you 'we are not supposed to know God's will' is lying to you. Big lie.

As for all of creation being a "test", also a big lie.


Sorry.

Sure, some people hate their life so much to kill themselves.


Kids scream about the smallest things. They do not understand their parents will and demands. Same thing with people.

Thanks for your reply!

I meant the God's Will statement to be applied to seemingly horrible things that happen, and the how and why he allowed these things to happen. It is my (I'll admit very very basic) understanding that we are not meant to or simply cannot understand the how or why. I'm inferring that you meant in regards to life and how we live it in general we can understand his will. Following the ten commandments and so forth. Forgive me if I inferred your post wrong.

Also glad to hear that creation is just not all a test!

 

[andreha]

Hi brand new here, so hello all!

I have some very simple probably ill conceived questions that I was hoping you might be able to help me with, this seemed to me like a place that could provide some answers so I hope you do not mind.

Can a God with omniscience and omnipotence ever be disappointed? I know this a somewhat facetious question and we are not meant to know God's Will, but I have to ask. How can anything happen that isn't part of God's agenda? It is my understanding that it cannot otherwise the whole concept of Christianity would fall apart. So it would not be a large leap to say that everything that has happened and will happen, occurs only because He wills it or is at the very least is indifferent. I cannot see our planet as some grand experiment or test simply because it would be pointless or some might think sadistic, God would already know the results before he even created Earth.

I would have to go with it all being part of God's agenda rather than some sort of arbitrary test because the latter thought scares the daylight out of me. I get that we aren't supposed to know his Will, and to bring up one of the simplest atheist arguments, why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? I'll mark it down to we aren't supposed to understand why. This, though, I think takes away the concept of free will, things happen because that's the way they are supposed to happen. A man walks into a school and shoots 3 people. That happened because it was God's Will and we aren't supposed to know why or understand it, but would it be fair to say that the shooter just acted out God's Will? It's obvious that God wanted those 3 people to be shot, because it was allowed to happen. If this is true then we lose all accountability for our actions and it scares me. I used to read news stories of mothers driving their vans into a lakes with the kids still inside because she said God told her to do it. I used to think oh she's just crazy, now I think "oh God what if she's right?"

Sorry for my inane ramblings, I guess my final question is "Can anything happen in this world happen outside of God's will?"

And also just so it clear I'm not here to troll as I believe its called, these are genuine questions I have (as inept as they might seem) and I know my profile says I'm agnostic, but I would like to be Christian there's just some things that I don't understand sufficiently enough to through in my lot just yet. Anyway thanks for taking the time to read!

Hello Naked Halo

I think the best way to clarify is to compare the relationship between a father and child. If the child obeys, he gets to see the friendly side of the parent. If the child insists on disobeying, the parent will eventually raise his voice and take action. Depending on the severity of the action, the child may be punished rather severely. And if the child tries to kill himself, the parent will get rather tough on the child.

God loves His children. He wants the best for them, in this life and the next. The thing is, the more we try to really do His will the more we get see that friendly/pleasant side of Him. After all, it is written that if we seek His kingdom, and righteousness, all we need in life will be given to us.

So, to simplify, I believe that God has plenty of ways to get His will done - whatever it takes. It is much better to obey, than to rebel, because ultimately, rebellion against Him will result in a very harsh end...

 

[Bible2]

Naked Halo said in post 1:

Hi brand new here, so hello all!

Hello.

Can a God with omniscience and omnipotence ever be disappointed?

No, God can never be disappointed in the sense of thinking that one thing will happen, only to see something else happen, precisely because of his omniscience: he knows beforehand how everything will happen, declaring the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). Nonetheless, this omniscience does not keep God from being able to feel grief when people wrongly employ their will to commit sin (Genesis 6:5-6).

An analogy of how someone can know that something will happen but still feel sad when it actually happens would be a mother being told by a doctor that her infant son has only a few days to live. The mother could totally believe the doctor and so be fully expecting the death of her son in only a few days, and yet she could still feel great grief when her son actually dies.

How can anything happen that isn't part of God's agenda?

Nothing can happen that isn't part of God's agenda in the sense of his overall purpose for creating this particular timeline-sequence of events (Romans 9:22-24). But a lot can happen, and does happen, that isn't part of God's agenda in the sense of how he has commanded us to behave: people wrongly employ their will to commit every kind of sin (Romans 1:29-32).

I cannot see our planet as some grand experiment or test simply because it would be pointless or some might think sadistic, God would already know the results before he even created Earth.

God not only knew, but actually determined the eternal fate of everyone (Romans 9:21-24) before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), before anyone had done anything at all (Romans 9:11-23). This is not pointless, because the point of the eternal fate of people is to eternally show God's wrath, power, glory, mercy (Romans 9:22-23), and wisdom (Ephesians 3:10). The point of God creating everything is to give him pleasure (Revelation 4:11). And this is not sadistic, because as Creator, God has the right to do with his creatures whatever he wants, just as a potter has the right to do with his pots whatever he wants (Romans 9:20-24).

I get that we aren't supposed to know his Will, and to bring up one of the simplest atheist arguments, why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?

People can know God's will (Romans 12:2). But there are no good people because everyone is a sinner (Romans 3:9-12); only God is good (Matthew 19:17). When God allows bad things to happen to forgiven sinners, forgiven through their faith in Jesus and his sacrificial blood shed on the Cross (Romans 3:25), God comforts them at the same time (2 Corinthians 1:3-7). When forgiven sinners die, this is no loss for them, but even gain, for their souls go into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23). All the suffering of forgiven sinners is only temporary (2 Corinthians 4:16-18); they look forward to eternal bliss with God (Revelation 21:4). Suffering helps us to become more humble before God (Job 42:6), and can sometimes be sent by God to help us to repent from our sinfulness (Revelation 3:19).

A man walks into a school and shoots 3 people. That happened because it was God's Will and we aren't supposed to know why or understand it, but would it be fair to say that the shooter just acted out God's Will? It's obvious that God wanted those 3 people to be shot, because it was allowed to happen. If this is true then we lose all accountability for our actions and it scares me.

We do not lose any accountability for our actions (Matthew 12:36), because God never forces anyone to commit sin; he never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13). People are tempted by their own lust to commit sin (James 1:14-15); their sinful actions come forth from their own sinful hearts (Matthew 15:19). Just because God doesn't stop people from wrongly employing their will to commit sin, this doesn't mean that he won't ultimately judge everyone for all of their sins (2 Corinthians 5:10). God created this particular timeline-sequence of events, knowing that in it everyone would wrongly choose to commit sins, because God ultimately wanted to eternally show his wrath (against unforgiven sinners) and his mercy (toward forgiven sinners) (Romans 9:22-23).

 

[Naked Halo]

Hello Naked Halo

I think the best way to clarify is to compare the relationship between a father and child. If the child obeys, he gets to see the friendly side of the parent. If the child insists on disobeying, the parent will eventually raise his voice and take action. Depending on the severity of the action, the child may be punished rather severely. And if the child tries to kill himself, the parent will get rather tough on the child.

God loves His children. He wants the best for them, in this life and the next. The thing is, the more we try to really do His will the more we get see that friendly/pleasant side of Him. After all, it is written that if we seek His kingdom, and righteousness, all we need in life will be given to us.

So, to simplify, I believe that God has plenty of ways to get His will done - whatever it takes. It is much better to obey, than to rebel, because ultimately, rebellion against Him will result in a very harsh end...

Hi Andreha, and thanks for the reply!

I understand the analogy and have heard it before, but I think for me due to the concept of omnipotence it begins to break down. For some reason I'm having a hard time separating God's allowance of things and his Will. At the risk of repeating myself, I don't believe that if there is an omnipotent God anything could happen that he did not want to happen otherwise he wouldn't be omnipotent. If it were just an allowance of things to happen it show the characteristics of a being that could sometimes just be impartial for whatever reason, which I would infer from that, choose to show seemingly random favoritism from time to time. That is something I am afraid to believe so I don't. So when some horrible tragedy happens I can only think that God wanted it to happen simply because if he didn't want it to happen it wouldn't have. The why and how these horrible things happen is beyond our comprehension. I can accept that, but if that is true than its what follows that train of thought that concerns me.

 

[Naked Halo]

An analogy of how someone can know that something will happen but still feel sad when it actually happens would be a mother being told by a doctor that her infant son has only a few days to live. The mother could totally believe the doctor and so be fully expecting the death of her son in only a few days, and yet she could still feel great grief when her son actually dies.

I understand the concept of your analogy however I feel it breaks down if you give the mother omnipotence in addition to the omniscience. If you give the mother the ability to save her infant son I can’t think of one sane mother that wouldn’t save her child. If the mother has omnipotence and the child dies it is only because she allowed it.

God not only knew, but actually determined the eternal fate of everyone (Romans 9:21-24) before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), before anyone had done anything at all (Romans 9:11-23). This is not pointless, because the point of the eternal fate of people is to eternally show God's wrath, power, glory, mercy (Romans 9:22-23), and wisdom (Ephesians 3:10). The point of God creating everything is to give him pleasure (Revelation 4:11). And this is not sadistic, because as Creator, God has the right to do with his creatures whatever he wants, just as a potter has the right to do with his pots whatever he wants (Romans 9:20-24).

I have a hard believing it wouldn’t be sadistic, to use a popular parental analogy, we believe the concept of child abuse exists. Parents are not allowed to do anything they want with their child and for good reason. With the potter analogy humans would be the pots, unfeeling and uncaring. The potter could smash his creations into the wall and no one would blink. We are not pots however and do feel do care.

People can know God's will (Romans 12:2). But there are no good people because everyone is a sinner (Romans 3:9-12); only God is good (Matthew 19:17). When God allows bad things to happen to forgiven sinners, forgiven through their faith in Jesus and his sacrificial blood shed on the Cross (Romans 3:25), God comforts them at the same time (2 Corinthians 1:3-7). When forgiven sinners die, this is no loss for them, but even gain, for their souls go into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23). All the suffering of forgiven sinners is only temporary (2 Corinthians 4:16-18); they look forward to eternal bliss with God (Revelation 21:4). Suffering helps us to become more humble before God (Job 42:6), and can sometimes be sent by God to help us to repent from our sinfulness (Revelation 3:19).



We do not lose any accountability for our actions (Matthew 12:36), because God never forces anyone to commit sin; he never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13). People are tempted by their own lust to commit sin (James 1:14-15); their sinful actions come forth from their own sinful hearts (Matthew 15:19). Just because God doesn't stop people from wrongly employing their will to commit sin, this doesn't mean that he won't ultimately judge everyone for all of their sins (2 Corinthians 5:10). God created this particular timeline-sequence of events, knowing that in it everyone would wrongly choose to commit sins, because God ultimately wanted to eternally show his wrath (against unforgiven sinners) and his mercy (toward forgiven sinners) (Romans 9:22-23).

I guess my problem with this still fundamentally remains the same. Sin only exists because God wills it too. With an omnipotent God human Free Will becomes irrelevant, we sin because ultimately God wants us too. If our sinning was not part of his plan there would be none. I wish my reply was more thought out simply because I appreciate the time and effort you put into your reply to my post. I thank you for that!

 

[Van]

Hi Naked Halo, I read your opening post, but have not read any of the follow-up responses. So sorry if this is redundant.

There are at least two schools of thought about what "omniscience" means. The one you used in the opening post was knowledge of all things - past, present and future.

This is a widely held view, but it is unbiblical. Why? Because God can choose to know or to not know whatever He pleases. Thus He can forgive our sins and "remember them no more forever." Jesus did not know the time of His return, and so in becoming flesh, God the Son chose to limit His knowledge to something less than all knowledge of the future.

The second view of omniscience is that God knows everything He chooses to know. He can look into our "hearts" and know our inner thoughts and motivations, or He can choose not to look into someone's heart, such as Abraham, and test Abraham to learn Abraham's inner conviction. This view is consistent with God being able to do all things, including not knowing things, and is consistent with the entire Bible.

God makes plans for the future, things that He will bring about in the future, so the future is not fixed, except as God has foreordained to fix it. Thus, since God has set before us the choice of life or death, the outcome of that choice has not been foreordained because then it would not be our choice. To choose from only one possibly is non-choice, not choice. Therefore the Bible teaches parts of the future are not fixed, but other parts are fixed because they are foreordained. So the bottom line is God has chosen to create a purview within which we exist, and where we can make choices allowed by God, such as whether to trust in Christ.

With this view of Biblical Omniscience in mind, lets return to your opening post.

Can God be disappointed? Yes. He can beg us to be reconciled to God and be disappointed when folks choose to reject Jesus.

How can anything happen that is not part of God's agenda? Nothing can. But since God's agenda was to create a purview where we make choices, the non-foreordained results are according to His agenda. When we make the choice to repent and turn to Jesus, we bring glory to God, fulfilling God's purpose of creation, and that purpose can only be fulfilled if we make the choice, for it would not glorify God if God foreordained our choice.

Does the whole concept of Christianity fall apart if God has chosen not to know everything about the future? Nope, that is Biblical Christianity.

Does God already know the results? Yes and No. He has chosen not to know who will individually choose to believe in Jesus, but He did know before creation that His salvation plan would fulfill His purpose of choosing for Himself a people for His own possession. He chooses believers, those whose belief He counts as righteousness, those who believe whole-heartedly that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God.

Why does God allow bad things to happen to "good" people? First, according to the Bible there is no one who is "good" except God, the rest of us are sinners. Second, God created our harsh environment, where calamity strikes folks regardless of their character. While this is "bad" from the point of view of those stricken, the calamity is not "bad" from God's perspective. Our harsh environment results in folks seeking God as a refuge, which is according to His purpose. Additionally, the "bad" caused by our sinful choices is allowed because unless we can make choices, sinful or not, none of us could glorify God and fulfill our purpose of creation.

Do we lose all accountability for our actions? Not with this view of Omniscience, we make choices, such as to harm others, and in the afterlife, if we have not obtained mercy, we will face perfect justice and suffer for our misdeeds.

Final question, can anything happen "outside" God's will? God either causes (ordains) something to happen or He allows us to make choices that affect the future. So while the "will of God" is for all men to come to the knowledge of the truth, He did not foreordain that outcome, but He allows folks to come to that knowledge who choose to trust in Jesus.

May God Bless

 

[aiki]

I guess my problem with this still fundamentally remains the same. Sin only exists because God wills it too. With an omnipotent God human Free Will becomes irrelevant, we sin because ultimately God wants us too. If our sinning was not part of his plan there would be none. I wish my reply was more thought out simply because I appreciate the time and effort you put into your reply to my post. I thank you for that!

In a sense you're right: it is God's will that the potential for sin exist. This isn't the same as saying God causes sin or desires it, however. A person may make a carving knife with the potential to harm another person, without ever intending that it should. Perhaps a better way of looking at this issue might be to recognize that sin is the result of a person's capacity to choose not to do what God has commanded. God has given each of us the potential to do what is wrong. When we choose to sin, we exercise that God-given potential, but it is not because God has made us do so. Without the ability to choose between obeying God and not obeying Him, we would be mere puppets obeying our Maker, without the intent or desire to do so, but only because we must. God, apparently, doesn't want us to be puppets. He has equipped us to be able to love Him, not by divine constraint (which would make it something other than love), but by choice. This decision on God's part to make us this way carries with it, as it does for the one who makes a carving knife, inherent danger. Just as the carving knife cannot fulfill its purpose without having a sharp - and thus dangerous - edge, we, too, have been created with a "sharp edge" with which we may help or harm ourselves and others, and honor or defy God.

The question arises here: If we can choose to do what is wrong, is God truly omnipotent? Doesn't my choice to do wrong defeat God's will? I heard a fellow Christian respond to this question by suggesting that we live our lives and make our choices relative to God much as one does playing chess against the famous chess player Garry Kasparov. I may make any choice I like about how to move my chess pieces on the board, but in the end Mr. Kasparov is going to win the game. Likewise, the choices I may make as I live my life don't change the final outcome of God's plan one bit. He is in complete control of the board no matter what I do. Its not a perfect analogy, of course, but it does illuminate the issue somewhat.

I think realizing that God's will has two facets, His permissive will and His sovereign will, may help answer your questions. God allows certain things to occur, even though He doesn't desire or approve of them, within His permissive will. There are certain other things that God has determined are inviolable and cannot be altered or affected in any way by any one or thing save Himself. This is His sovereign will.

Peace.

 

[Naked Halo]

Hi Naked Halo, I read your opening post, but have not read any of the follow-up responses. So sorry if this is redundant.

There are at least two schools of thought about what "omniscience" means. The one you used in the opening post was knowledge of all things - past, present and future.

This is a widely held view, but it is unbiblical. Why? Because God can choose to know or to not know whatever He pleases. Thus He can forgive our sins and "remember them no more forever." Jesus did not know the time of His return, and so in becoming flesh, God the Son chose to limit His knowledge to something less than all knowledge of the future.

The second view of omniscience is that God knows everything He chooses to know. He can look into our "hearts" and know our inner thoughts and motivations, or He can choose not to look into someone's heart, such as Abraham, and test Abraham to learn Abraham's inner conviction. This view is consistent with God being able to do all things, including not knowing things, and is consistent with the entire Bible.

God makes plans for the future, things that He will bring about in the future, so the future is not fixed, except as God has foreordained to fix it. Thus, since God has set before us the choice of life or death, the outcome of that choice has not been foreordained because then it would not be our choice. To choose from only one possibly is non-choice, not choice. Therefore the Bible teaches parts of the future are not fixed, but other parts are fixed because they are foreordained. So the bottom line is God has chosen to create a purview within which we exist, and where we can make choices allowed by God, such as whether to trust in Christ.

With this view of Biblical Omniscience in mind, lets return to your opening post.

Can God be disappointed? Yes. He can beg us to be reconciled to God and be disappointed when folks choose to reject Jesus.

How can anything happen that is not part of God's agenda? Nothing can. But since God's agenda was to create a purview where we make choices, the non-foreordained results are according to His agenda. When we make the choice to repent and turn to Jesus, we bring glory to God, fulfilling God's purpose of creation, and that purpose can only be fulfilled if we make the choice, for it would not glorify God if God foreordained our choice.

Does the whole concept of Christianity fall apart if God has chosen not to know everything about the future? Nope, that is Biblical Christianity.

Does God already know the results? Yes and No. He has chosen not to know who will individually choose to believe in Jesus, but He did know before creation that His salvation plan would fulfill His purpose of choosing for Himself a people for His own possession. He chooses believers, those whose belief He counts as righteousness, those who believe whole-heartedly that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God.

Why does God allow bad things to happen to "good" people? First, according to the Bible there is no one who is "good" except God, the rest of us are sinners. Second, God created our harsh environment, where calamity strikes folks regardless of their character. While this is "bad" from the point of view of those stricken, the calamity is not "bad" from God's perspective. Our harsh environment results in folks seeking God as a refuge, which is according to His purpose. Additionally, the "bad" caused by our sinful choices is allowed because unless we can make choices, sinful or not, none of us could glorify God and fulfill our purpose of creation.

Do we lose all accountability for our actions? Not with this view of Omniscience, we make choices, such as to harm others, and in the afterlife, if we have not obtained mercy, we will face perfect justice and suffer for our misdeeds.

Final question, can anything happen "outside" God's will? God either causes (ordains) something to happen or He allows us to make choices that affect the future. So while the "will of God" is for all men to come to the knowledge of the truth, He did not foreordain that outcome, but He allows folks to come to that knowledge who choose to trust in Jesus.

May God Bless

Thank you Van for your well thought out reply! I didn't find it redundant at all, to the contrary very thought provoking.

With this view of variable omniscience my jumbling thoughts on the subject begin to make more sense. With that train of thought, however, brings with it more questions. God has an agenda, sometimes chooses not to know it and set us in a bubble where the choices we make are inherently our own and impact his overarching will. Is this a fair if somewhat simplified summary? Even with selective omniscience its hard for me to think that when creating us he did not know every single choice we were going to make, our psychological presets and every single variable in our life to make us live the way we do. We were born sinners, but were we not meant to be anything else? Not to retread popular arguments, but was not Adam and Eve set up to fail? Their failing had to be part of the plan. God in all his omnipotence and omniscience couldn't be blind to the simple fact of blind obedience and the free will he gave us would not mix. In the same situation every single human being on Earth would have made the same mistake. It had no other outcome, even us humans can see that. Every child learns the idea of consequences and tests that.

The idea that we carry our predecessors burden and we are all born with sin is hard for me to grasp. I didn't know Adam and Eve and I'm not the one who ate the apple yet I'm suffering the consequences of their actions. I've already admitted that I would have done the same thing given the same circumstances and I stand by that, but only because of the inherent flaws that were built into us by God himself.

 

[Van]

Hi Naked Halo,

Is this a fair summary? No. Two points, one God does not choose to know His agenda. His agenda - choosing those who choose to trust in Jesus - includes His choice not to know in advance, who will chose to trust in Jesus. Second point, our choices within His allowed area are consistent with His overarching plan, otherwise He would preclude that choice. For example, Paul tells us God hardened the hearts of some non-believers to prevent them from believing so the gospel message would be spread to the Gentiles.

You say it is hard for you to believe God did not know every single choice we were going to make. That is because you were taught the other view of omniscience. If you had been taught this view, you would accept it naturally. One of the difficulties in discussing doctrine is that once you accept it, you naturally oppose an alternate view, even when the evidence is substantial.

Yes, because God can look into our hearts, he can know how we will react to a circumstance, such as a gospel presentation, but that view would change if conditions affecting our heart felt views occurred.

God's plan for us, revised continually as we stumble, is to come to a knowledge of the truth. So we were made not for certain doom, but for glorifying God by choosing life.

Yes, Adam was set up to fall, because when a fallen sinner chooses to trust in God, that brings glory to God. Think of it like God reducing the size of the Gideon's army, so the victory would bring more glory to God.

No, God was not blind to the idea that with` the ability to make choices, we would not always follow God's plan for us. God accepted that consequence so that He could achieve His purpose.

The burden of Adam - sin has consequences, during our lifetime and I believe, in the afterlife. Say a teenager is learning about Jesus, and with his "presets" would shortly put his full trust in Jesus alone, but before that happens, a drive by shooter shoots him. The sin of the one, affected the eternal outcome of the other. The teen was not being punished for the sin of the drive by shooter, but his life was altered.

The consequence of Adam sinning resulted in Adam's separation from God, and his corruption due to the knowledge of good and evil. All mankind now is conceived in a "separated from God state." Not because of any thing they did but as a result of Adam's fall. So we are not being punished for Adam's sin, but we must deal with its consequences.

Our inherent flaws - yes you are bang on on that one. That is why we need a savior.

 

[fm107]

He has chosen not to know who will individually choose to believe in Jesus

Is this a fair summary? No. Two points, one God does not choose to know His agenda. His agenda - choosing those who choose to trust in Jesus - includes His choice not to know in advance, who will chose to trust in Jesus.

God does know this,

John 18:9
This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: "I have not lost one of those you gave me."

God knows those who were given to him i.e. those who believe in him.


Ephesians 1:3-14
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

God chose us before even the creation of the world, he knows who will come to believe in him.

……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

With regards to God forgetting our sins here are the scriptures Van is referring to:

Heb 8:12
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 10:17
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

God does know everything:

1 John 3:20
For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

Jesus the son of God however does not know the time of his return – that is for the Father to say.

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

Halo, you talked about suffering the consequences of Adam’s actions:

Romans 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man [Adam] the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man [Jesus] the many will be made righteous.

……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Halo, you complain saying, “I would have done the same thing given the same circumstances and I stand by that, but only because of the inherent flaws that were built into us by God himself.”

Romans 9:18-21
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”h21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

 

[kevlite2020]

Hi there, I want to try to add to this conversation a bit. Forgive me if I repeat some points, I only skimmed through the replies. Your biggest stumbling block seems to be in figuring out how omnipotence and omniscience can fit in the same place as a God who can be disappointed and who's will isn't the only thing that happens. Let me try to break this down a bit.

First, I will say that there's no Biblical evidence for or against this theory of mine, just some hints that I think are fairly reasonable to believe. I think that God, even knowing what will happen with every single person, still HOPES that they will do good and be holy and righteous. I think it disappoints Him everytime when they fall. The thing that led me to this belief is in how He treated the Jews when He delivered them from Egypt. He constantly reminded them over and over about specific laws which they in turn broke. It shows me that if He knew they would break it, why would He harp on it so much? And I think the answer is that, as a loving Father, He just hoped that we wouldn't fall, even though we did.

As far as things happening outside of God's will, the best way to explain it is with the fall of man. I'm going to assume you are somewhat familiar with the story of the fall with Adam and Eve. If not, let me know and I'd be glad to try and sum it up. See, Adam and Eve made the choice to fall into sin, not God. It wasn't what He wanted. But do you know what He did want? To give His creation the choice. See, God would have loved for us all to be in the garden of eden to this day enjoying everlasting life and peace on earth, but because He loved us, He also allowed us to make our own decisions. We chose the way of sin and that's what brought death into this world.

So when you see something bad happen to someone, like getting cancer for instance, it's not God literally giving him/her cancer, it is just the effect of sin on this world that we brought on ourselves. God can prevent all bad things from happening, maybe where you are confused is in you are thinking God would use a different method from preventing these bad things. The method He uses is His Son, Jesus. Through Jesus' death and ressurection, all those who believe in Him can have eternal life. That means no pain, no suffering, nothing bad, for eternity, and the only thing we have to do is believe in Him while in this world and in the midst of sin. He can't get rid of all the bad on earth because that would remove our free will, all He can do is give us the choice of free life (which is a pretty big and awesome gift, I don't want to downplay how amazing that is) and allow us to either accept it or stay lost in our sin.

I don't know if you've read the book of Romans, but the first couple chapters of that may bring you some clarity on why people choose sin over eternal life and salvation in Jesus. Anyways, I'll check back here but also feel free to pm me if you would like

 

[Van]

Hi Fm 107, this is not a debate forum. You hold to a different doctrine than I do.
But a couple of points - God gets the credit for when folks turn and trust in Jesus, for they were convicted by the gospel through the work of the Holy Spirit. Thus the giving occurs during the lifetime of the believer.

He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world means when God chose Christ to be His redeemer before time began, He chose to redeem whoever believers in Him. Thus He chose us (born again believers) in Him before time began. Note Ephesians 1:13, the time when we are "included in Him" is when we believed and after we were in Him, we were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit.

God chose Christ before the foundation of the world as His redeemer, and therefore all those subsequently redeemed during their lifetime were in effect chosen "in Him" as our redeemer.

All the verses used to support the other view of omniscience make the mistake of unwarranted extrapolation. God knows everything or all things (1 John 3:20) does not say God knows everything "about the future." A reasonable understanding is God knows everything about the heart of His redeemed.

 

[Bible2]

Naked Halo said in post 9:

I understand the concept of your analogy however I feel it breaks down if you give the mother omnipotence in addition to the omniscience. If you give the mother the ability to save her infant son I can’t think of one sane mother that wouldn’t save her child. If the mother has omnipotence and the child dies it is only because she allowed it.

No human analogy can be perfect with regard to God (Isaiah 46:5) because he alone is the Creator of everything (John 1:3). Even though God is omnipotent, he still allows his human children to die because death is no loss for his children, but even gain (Philippians 1:21), for it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), which is far better than any life on this earth (Philippians 1:23). Also, God does not consider all humans to be his children; he considers some humans to be the children of the devil (John 8:42-47, Matthew 13:38-42), and so will eventually cause them to suffer eternal torment with the devil and his fallen angels (Matthew 25:41,46) in the "second death" of the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:10,15, 21:8, 14:10-11). The purpose of this will be to eternally show God's wrath and make his power known (Romans 9:22). God's wrath will be shown as righteous judgment against unrepentant sinners (Romans 2:5-8).

I have a hard believing it wouldn’t be sadistic, to use a popular parental analogy, we believe the concept of child abuse exists. Parents are not allowed to do anything they want with their child and for good reason. With the potter analogy humans would be the pots, unfeeling and uncaring. The potter could smash his creations into the wall and no one would blink. We are not pots however and do feel do care.

With the potter analogy (Romans 9:20-23), even though humans are the pots, and humans are feeling and caring, compared with the infinite God even all humans together are worth less than nothing (Isaiah 40:17,15); their level of feeling and caring is infinitesimal compared with God's, and so would be worth less than any feeling and caring experienced by bacteria compared with humans.

Sin only exists because God wills it too. With an omnipotent God human Free Will becomes irrelevant, we sin because ultimately God wants us too. If our sinning was not part of his plan there would be none.

God never wills anyone to commit sin in the sense of making them commit sin; he never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13). People wrongly employ their will to commit sin out of the lust of their own hearts (James 1:14-15, Matthew 15:19). God allowed sin to come into existence in order so that he might be able to eternally show his righteous wrath against unrepentant sinners (Romans 9:22, 2:5-8) and his mercy toward repentant sinners (Romans 9:23). Also, sin had to come into existence in order for righteousness to be known for what it is, just as "down" has to exist in order for "up" to be known for what it is. Also, God wants human children, not robots; he wants them to love and obey him because they want to, not because he's programmed them to. So he had to give them their own will, the ability to choose for themselves whether to obey him or not; and in order for them to have any real choice to not obey him, sin had to come into existence.

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Naked Halo said in post 12:

The idea that we carry our predecessors burden and we are all born with sin is hard for me to grasp. I didn't know Adam and Eve and I'm not the one who ate the apple yet I'm suffering the consequences of their actions. I've already admitted that I would have done the same thing given the same circumstances and I stand by that, but only because of the inherent flaws that were built into us by God himself.

Actually, Adam and Eve were created without any flaws; everything God created was very good (Genesis 1:31). The ability to be able to choose sin is not a flaw; it's a necessary component of a free will. Even Lucifer was created perfect, without any flaw whatsoever (Ezekiel 28:15), but he still chose to wrongly employ his will to fall into rebellion against YHWH (Isaiah 14:12), just as perfect Adam and Eve subsequently did (Genesis 3), and just as all of us have subsequently done (Romans 5:12). God chose to create this particular timeline-sequence of free-willed events because he knew that in it every human (except Jesus: Hebrews 4:15) and Lucifer and one-third of the angels (Revelation 12:4,9) would choose to commit sin, giving God the ability to fulfill his desire to eternally show his wrath (against those he created to be vessels of his wrath) and his mercy (toward those he created to be vessels of of his mercy) (Romans 9:20-23).

And in order so that he would be able to show his mercy toward those he created to be vessels of his mercy, without contradicting his perfect justice that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), before the foundation of the world he made sure that as part of this particular timeline-sequence of events Jesus would come and die on the Cross for our sins (Revelation 13:8b, 1 Peter 1:18-20, Acts 2:23). And he makes sure to give his gift of saving faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65) and repentance (2 Timothy 2:25) to those he created to be vessels of his mercy (Romans 9:23), those he ordained to eternal life (Acts 13:48), those elect he chose and predestined to salvation before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5), before they had done anything at all (Romans 9:11-23).