questions for those who pray to "Saints"

[Kristos]

Origen on Prayer

 

[Uphill Battle]

Ah, Origien, the "heretic."

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Is that this verse?
23 If there is with him an angel, An interpreter, one of a thousand, To declare to man what is right for him,

23 "Yet if there is an angel on his side
as a mediator, one out of a thousand,
to tell a man what is right for him,


23[God's voice may be heard] if there is for the hearer a messenger or an angel, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to show to man what is right for him [how to be upright and in right standing with God],

I do not see anything here telling Job to pray to an angel or telling anyone to pray to an angel.

"Bless the Lord, O ye His angels, you strong and mighty ones"
=direct communication (prayer) with/to angels.
Any further questions, folks?

 

[Uphill Battle]

"Bless the Lord, O ye His angels, you strong and mighty ones"
=direct communication (prayer) with/to angels.
Any further questions, folks?

then the Psalmist is nuts, because two verses later, he states that all his works should do the same.

it's a Psalm. you taking it literaly, isn't proving your point.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

then the Psalmist is nuts, because two verses later, he states that all his works should do the same.

it's a Psalm. you taking it literaly, isn't proving your point.

Jesus said that if the people did not cry out (praise), the rocks would.
Is Jesus nuts?
I don't think so. A donkey rebuked the madness of the prophet.
Try again.

And spare me the secularist, figurative readings- please.

 

[christianmomof3]

"Bless the Lord, O ye His angels, you strong and mighty ones"
=direct communication (prayer) with/to angels.
Any further questions, folks?

20 Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.

21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will. 22 Praise the LORD, all his works
everywhere in his dominion.
Praise the LORD, O my soul.

Here is verse 20 along with the following verses. It does show that angels praise the Lord. And as you said, even the rocks - all the works of the Lord, can praise the Lord.
Are you suggesting that the psalmist was praying to the angels and all the works of the Lord? If so, what are all the works of the Lord everywhere in his dominion? I would imagine that is all of creation. Would you use this verse to support praying to rocks?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Jesus said that if the people did not cry out (praise), the rocks would.
Is Jesus nuts?
I don't think so. A donkey rebuked the madness of the prophet.
Try again.

And spare me the secularist, figurative readings- please.

oh, sure. Spare you anything that would take away from your prooftexting.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

oh, sure. Spare you anything that would take away from your prooftexting.

No, spare me from your capricious use of literal/figurative.
Any response to the rebuttal, other than whining?

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

20 Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.

21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will. 22 Praise the LORD, all his works
everywhere in his dominion.
Praise the LORD, O my soul.

Here is verse 20 along with the following verses. It does show that angels praise the Lord. And as you said, even the rocks - all the works of the Lord, can praise the Lord.
Are you suggesting that the psalmist was praying to the angels and all the works of the Lord? If so, what are all the works of the Lord everywhere in his dominion? I would imagine that is all of creation. Would you use this verse to support praying to rocks?

Was Moses not commanded to speak to the rock? And had he not rebelled and struck it, would it have not obeyed his prayer?

 

[christianmomof3]

Was Moses not commanded to speak to the rock? And had he not rebelled and struck it, would it have not obeyed his prayer?

Yes, and Moses should have spoken to it when God told him to. But, I would not use that to say that we should all talk to rocks - unless of course God specifically tells us to. And I would not call that praying to the rock. Nor do I think that we should use that example to decide that we should all go around talking to or praying to rocks - do you?

 

[Uphill Battle]

No, spare me from your capricious use of literal/figurative.
Any response to the rebuttal, other than whining?

not whining, just being honest enought to call a spade a spade.

but yes, I have rebuttal.

tell me this.

the Psalms are full of graphic imagery. You cannot deny this. If I must, I'll give examples, but I'm sure you are aware of them.

why then, is this to be taken as a literal example of David having a chat with ALL the angels to tell them to praise God?

does that seem like the most likely answer? Having a tongue wag with every member of the heavenly host? Because that is what the verse says. So, is that what David is doing? It certainly does NOT seem like the most logical, nor sensical reason.

It is not a matter of secularist, it's a matter of reading it with intent and reason. you're quick to toss that one out when someones interpretation doesn't agree with THE CHURCH (tm) but then, I suppose anything not EO is secular to you.

 

[buzuxi02]

Thank you for the verses. I knew about the ones in Acts and Matthew but had not thought about the one in Genesis. Those verses do show that angels serve us. But, I have not seen any examples in the Bible of people praying to angels or being told to pray to them.

Prayer to the heavenly saints or angels is one of intercessory prayer. Another words an angel doesnt occasionally "intercept" random prayers and then delivers them to God. Instead God grants his saints and angels the ability to interceed for those that call upon them.

In the Apostolic Churches the OT book of Tobit is canonical scripture and we read what the scripture reveals :

"Now when thou didst pray, and Sarah your daughter-in-law, I did bring the remembrance of your prayers before the Holy One, and when thou didst bury the dead i was thee likewise. And when thou didst not delay to raise up and leave thy dinner to go cover the dead, the good deed was not hid from me; but i was with thee....I am Rapael one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out of the Glory of the Holy One." (Tobit 12. 12-15)

We can see that the bible does indeed speak about 'guardian angels' and the prayers of the saints to them. Also the angels are aware of all this because God allows it, as the Archangel Rapheal says "it was not hid from me".

Another occurence is in Zechariah 1.12. The angel prays on the behalf of the jewish people whose own prayers seem to go unanswered:

, "The Angel of the Lord answered and said , O Lord of Hosts how long will thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah against which thou has had indignation these threescore and ten years?

And the Lord answered the angel that talked with me with good words and comfortable words. So the angel that communed with me saidunto me Cry thou. Thus said the Lord of Hosts I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy." (Zech 1.12-14)

The ability of the deceased saints who are close to God to interceed for the earthly saints is also given to them (Rev 5.8)

 

[Thekla]

Ah, Origien, the "heretic."

not all of his work was/is considered "anathema"

 

[Uphill Battle]

not all of his work was/is considered "anathema"

I just think it's funny that people quote a source that was also declaimed as a heretic.

a case of pick and choose, really.

 

[Thekla]

I just think it's funny that people quote a source that was also declaimed as a heretic.

a case of pick and choose, really.

to use Sola Scriptura terms, what agrees agrees, and what does not is not of value

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

not whining, just being honest enought to call a spade a spade.

but yes, I have rebuttal.

tell me this.

the Psalms are full of graphic imagery. You cannot deny this. If I must, I'll give examples, but I'm sure you are aware of them.

why then, is this to be taken as a literal example of David having a chat with ALL the angels to tell them to praise God?

does that seem like the most likely answer? Having a tongue wag with every member of the heavenly host? Because that is what the verse says. So, is that what David is doing? It certainly does NOT seem like the most logical, nor sensical reason.

Nor does crucifying the Savior, a talking mule, walking on the water, water from a stone...

BTW- Jesus spoke to five thousand. Did He have "a chat" with each of them or "wag tongue" at them?
Your hyperbole is a transluscent ruse for the shallowness of your argument.

It is not a matter of secularist, it's a matter of reading it with intent and reason. you're quick to toss that one out when someones interpretation doesn't agree with THE CHURCH (tm) but then, I suppose anything not EO is secular to you.

Far from the truth. If your going to fish, pick tasty bait. I see oh so much in many religious traditions in Christianity- especially those given to the mystical experience of Christ.(tm)

I see you've found your edge again. Bravo.
Iakovos (tm)
servant of God (tm)

 

[MrPolo]

You listed 4 books of the Bible to support that. I have yet to see one verse that says that dead people can hear living ones.

Christ speaking with Elijah and Moses (Mt 17:3)

Paul specifically says that heaven knows him fully, and our knowledge will not be complete until we reach heaven: 1 Cor 13:12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.

Also:

Acts 9:36-37, 40 In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha...she became sick and died, and her body was washed and placed in an upstairs room....Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, "Tabitha, get up." She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.​

 

[Uphill Battle]

Nor does crucifying the Savior, a talking mule, walking on the water, water from a stone...

ah, I see. If I grant you this point, you're going to have to still realize, that because some things don't make sense, that doesn't mean that the obvious choice in every situation is the one that doesn't make sense.

BTW- Jesus spoke to five thousand. Did He have "a chat" with each of them or "wag tongue" at them?
Your hyperbole is a transluscent ruse for the shallowness of your argument.

nice try. Yes, Jesus had a chat with 5000. actually, it would be many more, with the women and children present. He was there, speaking to them. Perhaps you'd like to stop skirting the question, and answer if David was actually addressing every member of the heavenly host, as you so claim. And why, given the poetic and graphic nature of a great deal of the Psalms, we should think so, beyond your penchant for prooftexting what it is you believe.

Far from the truth. If your going to fish, pick tasty bait. I see oh so much in many religious traditions in Christianity- especially those given to the mystical experience of Christ.(tm)

I stand corrected. Self-righteous handwaving tends to set me off.

I see you've found your edge again. Bravo.
Iakovos (tm)
servant of God (tm)

never lost it. It's just been brought out again by all the holier than thou, false humilty spiritual snobbery going on around here.

 

[christianmomof3]

Christ speaking with Elijah and Moses (Mt 17:3)

Paul specifically says that heaven knows him fully, and our knowledge will not be complete until we reach heaven: 1 Cor 13:12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.


Also:

Acts 9:36-37, 40 In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha...she became sick and died, and her body was washed and placed in an upstairs room....Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, "Tabitha, get up." She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.​

These examples, like the others in the Old Testament, involve people communicating with someone whom they can physically see. They are speaking to someone. They are not praying to a dead person's invisible soul that they think may be able to hear them somehow.

 

[Thekla]

These examples, like the others in the Old Testament, involve people communicating with someone whom they can physically see. They are speaking to someone. They are not praying to a dead person's invisible soul that they think may be able to hear them somehow.

it does, however, bring up an interesting point: Tabitha was dead, yet Peter spoke to her. If we are not to speak to those who have died, why here ? Why, if her body was emptied of its soul, would it matter that Peter could see the body ? If seeing is the requisite for speaking to, does that mean that Tabitha's "isness" is her body ?