questions for those who pray to "Saints"

[christianmomof3]

Then you do not know that it could be through prayer.

It could be they got them in an e-mail or read them off of a message board for all we know.
The Bible does not tell us how the prayers got there.
It does not give examples of people praying to angels or to dead people anywhere and in fact, tells us not to do those things.
Therefore, to assume that the prayers got there by having angels and "Saints" listening to them having been prayed to them rather than to God to pass them on to God is stretching things a bit.
Perhaps they hear the prayers that we pray to God?
I really have no idea.
But the Bible does not tell us so we don't know.
And there is nowhere in the Bible apparantly where anyone is shown praying to an angel or to a "Saint", nor where anyone is told to do so it seems.

 

[Rhamiel]

allegory, sounds too modern, fiction, non-fiction allegory, these are modern terms, this is an ancient book

 

[Thekla]

It could be they got them in an e-mail or read them off of a message board for all we know.
The Bible does not tell us how the prayers got there.
It does not give examples of people praying to angels or to dead people anywhere and in fact, tells us not to do those things.
Therefore, to assume that the prayers got there by having angels and "Saints" listening to them having been prayed to them rather than to God to pass them on to God is stretching things a bit.
Perhaps they hear the prayers that we pray to God?
I really have no idea.
But the Bible does not tell us so we don't know.
And there is nowhere in the Bible apparantly where anyone is shown praying to an angel or to a "Saint", nor where anyone is told to do so it seems.

didn't some in the OT and NT interact with angels ? Abraham served them dinner, Mary said to Gabriel "let it be ..." when she could have said this directly to God, and Zachariah questioned the angel ...

 

[christianmomof3]

didn't some in the OT and NT interact with angels ? Abraham served them dinner, Mary said to Gabriel "let it be ..." when she could have said this directly to God, and Zachariah questioned the angel ...

They spoke directly to angels who appeared to them in a form that they could see.
Those people did not pray to angels.
All communication with angels that is recorded in the Bible is of people speaking to angels who were visibly present in human form before them.

 

[Thekla]

They spoke directly to angels who appeared to them in a form that they could see.
Those people did not pray to angels.
All communication with angels that is recorded in the Bible is of people speaking to angels who were visibly present in human form before them.

so if we don't see them with our physical eyes they are at that time absent ?

 

[Albion]

didn't some in the OT and NT interact with angels ? Abraham served them dinner, Mary said to Gabriel "let it be ..." when she could have said this directly to God, and Zachariah questioned the angel ...

But we're talking specifically about praying to angels or deceased humans.

 

[christianmomof3]

so if we don't see them with our physical eyes they are at that time absent ?

We do not really know. The point is though, that there are no examples of people praying - or speaking to someone or something that they cannot see - to anyone or anything other than to God in the Bible that I am aware of.
If you know of verses that show people speaking to invisible angels or "Saints" or being told to do so, please share those.

 

[Albion]

allegory, sounds too modern, fiction, non-fiction allegory, these are modern terms, this is an ancient book

Then you may use another term. I said that I was comfortable with that one. Although it is an ancient book we are discussing it in the here and now.

 

[Thekla]

But we're talking specifically about praying to angels or deceased humans.

1. the various words translated as "pray" all center on the meaning "communicate"

2. the NT word meaning 'dead' here is nekros referring specifically to the body, not the soul

 

[Thekla]

We do not really know. The point is though, that there are no examples of people praying - or speaking to someone or something that they cannot see - to anyone or anything other than to God in the Bible that I am aware of.
If you know of verses that show people speaking to invisible angels or "Saints" or being told to do so, please share those.

our ability to "see" is indicative of our spiritual condition

 

[Albion]

Has anyone yet found a single Bible passage in which living humans pray to the deceased or to angels?

 

[Asinner]

Perhaps they hear the prayers that we pray to God?

So, they can hear our petitions, but they cannot pray?

What of those crying out under the altar to God? Can God not hear them?

And there is nowhere in the Bible apparantly where anyone is shown praying to an angel

If there shall be an angel speaking for him . . . He shall have mercy on him, and shall say: Deliver him, that he may not go down to corruption" (Job xxxiii, 23).

How can an angel speak for Job? Is this "speaking for him" not synonymous with petitioning God? If not, then why not.

 

[Thekla]

Has anyone yet found a single Bible passage in which living humans pray to the deceased or to angels?

its there with the passage in the NT that nekros = psyche-amnesia

 

[Albion]

If there shall be an angel speaking for him . . . He shall have mercy on him, and shall say: Deliver him, that he may not go down to corruption" (Job xxxiii, 23).

How can an angel speak for Job? Is this "speaking for him" not synonymous with petitioning God? If not, then why not.

This has already been explained.

It is entirely possible for anyone to pray FOR someone else without having been asked personally by that person to do it. As a matter of fact, this is rather commonly done, so the passage poses no problems and does not support prayer to the deceased or angels.

 

[Asinner]

This has already been explained.

It is entirely possible for anyone to pray FOR someone else without having been asked personally by that person to do it. As a matter of fact, this is rather commonly done, so the passage poses no problems and does not support prayer to the deceased or angels.

Can I "speak for Albion" without knowing you or your specific struggles or joys?

 

[Thekla]

Can I "speak for Albion" without knowing you or your specific struggles or joys?

(as in an allegorical personification of an idea)

 

[Albion]

Can I "speak for Albion" without knowing you or your specific struggles or joys?

Absolutely!

Feel free to ask God for his blessings upon me and everyone else at CF as often as you wish and are able.

To bring it to a more personal level, though, I would ask you if you have not ever prayed to God for a need of a child of yours, or a parent or a neighbor,...without being asked by them to do so? I'm sure the answer is "yes."

 

[Asinner]

Albion,

Can I speak for you in a way that you cannot? Notice that Job receives mercy from God through the petitions of an angel. Why didn't he receive the same mercy without the angel?

 

[Albion]

Albion,

Can I speak for you in a way that you cannot? Notice that Job receives mercy from God through the petitions of an angel. Why didn't he receive the same mercy without the angel?

Did you notice that Job didn't pray to the angel?

 

[Asinner]

Did you notice that Job didn't pray to the angel?

I don't see where it says "the angel spoke for Job, but not because Job petitioned him".