questions for those who pray to "Saints"

[MrPolo]

Do you reject the general meaning of the word saint which applies to all those who are believers? No.
Do you think that "Saints" are only those who are dead? Yes, the term that does not just mean all believers means those in heaven. They are dead to us, alive in heaven.
Do you think that the word saint in the Bible always referred to dead people? No.
Do these "Saints" talk to you? Do they respond to you? No, they respond by way of intercessory prayer as we ask them. If a Saint were to communicate with us it would be very rare, like at the Transfiguration.
So, what do you think saint means in that verse? Is it dead people or living people? That verse refers to heavenly Saints because, for one, the metaphor of the prayers rising up is an OT reference to incense going to heaven.
I have heard ya'll say that you are just asking these "Saints" to pray with you. Do they respond to you - really? Duplicate question. [/QUOTE]

 

[christianmomof3]

Do these "Saints" talk to you? Do they respond to you? No, they respond by way of intercessory prayer as we ask them. If a Saint were to communicate with us it would be very rare, like at the Transfiguration.

Thank you for your replies.
Are there any examples in the Bible of people praying to "Saints" or of people being told to pray to "Saints" or even of the dead people being "Saints" concept?
Or is all of that from "Tradition"?

 

[christianmomof3]

Do these "Saints" talk to you? Do they respond to you? No, they respond by way of intercessory prayer as we ask them. If a Saint were to communicate with us it would be very rare, like at the Transfiguration.

[/quote]
Thank you for your replies.
Are there any examples in the Bible of people praying to "Saints" or of people being told to pray to "Saints" or even of the dead people being "Saints" concept?

 

[Asinner]

Thank you for your replies.
Are there any examples in the Bible of people praying to "Saints" or of people being told to pray to "Saints" or even of the dead people being "Saints" concept?

If there shall be an angel speaking for him . . . He shall have mercy on him, and shall say: Deliver him, that he may not go down to corruption" (Job 33: 23)
(If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. KJV)

When thou didst pray with tears… I [Archangel Raphael] offered thy prayer to the Lord. (Tobit 12:12)

And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Rev 8: 3, 4)

 

[Rhamiel]

also this Tradition goes back to the very time of what is called the "early church" back when Christians were still being fed to lions in Rome

 

[MrPolo]

Are there any examples in the Bible of people praying to "Saints" or of people being told to pray to "Saints"

Yes. If you understand that we can ask members of the Body of Christ to pray for us (Rm 15:30) and that the dead can hear us and are aware of us (Mt, Lk, Cor, Acts), then you would certainly want to ask for intercession from to those who are closest to God in heaven, whose prayers are so powerful! (Jm 5:16)

In addition: the Psalmist calls on to angels and heavenly hosts to pray praise with him in Ps 148:1-2, Ps 103:20-21, and the people ask for the angel's intercession in Zechariah 1:11-16, and the angel goes to God and God shows mercy on the people!

 

[christianmomof3]

and, God is with us all the time; do we always "hear him" ?

it was known (Acts) that Paul would be martyred; many entreated him not to go ... how is this different ? The Bible does indicate that there are those who are more and less "spiritually mature" and a variety of gifts.

We may not always "hear" God, but we should "hear" or experience Him at least some times.
I would never have believed that God existed had I not experienced Him.

What I was pointing to was this fact about the Book of Revelation. It was a vision or dream or something like that which John had.

exactly.
Rev. 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take place; and He made it known by signs, sending it by His angel to His slave John,

The book of Revelation is in signs and symbols. It is symbolic.

If there shall be an angel speaking for him . . . He shall have mercy on him, and shall say: Deliver him, that he may not go down to corruption" (Job 33: 23)
This verse is about an angel - not a "Saint".
(If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. KJV)
what verse is this?
When thou didst pray with tears… I [Archangel Raphael] offered thy prayer to the Lord. (Tobit 12:12)
Tobit is one of the few apocryphyl books that I have read. The angel lies. That is one reason it is not a part of the Protestant Bible. Also, it is about an angel - not a "Saint".
And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Rev 8: 3, 4)
This is the only verse about the prayers of saints and it was discussed in previous posts - I think it refers to the prayers of living saints - not dead "Saints" and nowhere does it tell living people to pray to dead "Saints" in that verse or indicate that dead "Saints" can hear living people.

Thank you for your reply though.

also this Tradition goes back to the very time of what is called the "early church" back when Christians were still being fed to lions in Rome

Just because something was done a long time ago does not make it right.

 

[christianmomof3]

Yes. If you understand that we can ask members of the Body of Christ to pray for us (Rm 15:30) and that the dead can hear us and are aware of us (Mt, Lk, Cor, Acts), then you would certainly want to ask for intercession from to those who are closest to God in heaven, whose prayers are so powerful! (Jm 5:16)

In addition: the Psalmist calls on to angels and heavenly hosts to pray praise with him in Ps 148:1-2, Ps 103:20-21, and the people ask for the angel's intercession in Zechariah 1:11-16, and the angel goes to God and God shows mercy on the people!

I do not understand that the dead can hear us and are aware of us. You listed 4 books of the Bible to support that. I have yet to see one verse that says that dead people can hear living ones.
Angels are not dead people.

 

[Rowan]

Thank you for your replies.
Are there any examples in the Bible of people praying to "Saints" or of people being told to pray to "Saints" or even of the dead people being "Saints" concept?
Or is all of that from "Tradition"?

The Catholic poster brought up the Transfiguration of Christ on Mt. Tabor, where Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke to Jesus. This is just one of the passages that the Church bases Her Tradition on the saints being very much alive and busy.

...and this was even before Jesus trampled down Hades.

Remember in Acts where Peter's supposed to be in jail, and they didn't believe he was knocking at first, but they thought it was his angel? This passage implies 1) we do have guardian angels 2) they could resemble us 3) the angels (since we refer to angels as saints as well...) can interact with the world.

While we do know there's a fundamental difference b/w angels and human saints...these are just some passages that reveal to us the veil between heaven and earth is thinner than we can even realize at times (even less so in this materialistic, almost gnostic time...).

 

[christianmomof3]

The Catholic poster brought up the Transfiguration of Christ on Mt. Tabor, where Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke to Jesus. This is just one of the passages that the Church bases Her Tradition on the saints being very much alive and busy.

Moses was dead, but I thought that Elijah was not.
At any rate, it was Jesus speaking with them, not anyone else. Which would show I suppose, that Jesus can speak with those who have passed on before us, but not that anyone else can. And no one else was told to speak to them. In fact, when Peter offered to make tabernacles for them, the Lord removed Moses and Elijah and said "this is My Son, the Beloved, hear Him" showing that the law (represented by Moses) and the prophets (represented by Elijah) are over and we should hear only Jesus.

...and this was even before Jesus trampled down Hades.
.

He passed through it. Where are we told He trampled it down?

Remember in Acts where Peter's supposed to be in jail, and they didn't believe he was knocking at first, but they thought it was his angel? This passage implies 1) we do have guardian angels 2) they could resemble us 3) the angels (since we refer to angels as saints as well...) can interact with the world.

While we do know there's a fundamental difference b/w angels and human saints...these are just some passages that reveal to us the veil between heaven and earth is thinner than we can even realize at times (even less so in this materialistic, almost gnostic time...)
.

As you pointed out, angels are not dead people. Angels are angels, people are people.
Angels do appear in the Bible looking like people.
But, that has nothing to do with dead people.

 

[Asinner]

We may not always "hear" God, but we should "hear" or experience Him at least some times.
I would never have believed that God existed had I not experienced Him.

If you don't mind me asking, how have you experienced God?

This is the only verse about the prayers of saints and it was discussed in previous posts - I think it refers to the prayers of living saints - not dead "Saints"

There are two verses in Rev. that speak to those in Heaven being in possession of the prayers of saints. Do you know how they got in their possession if not through prayer.

and nowhere does it tell living people to pray to dead "Saints" in that verse or indicate that dead "Saints" can hear living people.

It states that those in Heaven have access to our prayers.

Thank you for your reply though.

As for the angel verses . . . they imply that those other than God know of our needs. Why do you exclude those who aren't angels? In Rev 6:9 , John beholds those who are under the altar crying out to God to avenge their blood. Death has been trampled by Death.

Just because something was done a long time ago does not make it right.

Nor does it make it null and void.

Love,
Christina

 

[christianmomof3]

If you don't mind me asking, how have you experienced God?

Well, my first experiences of the Lord were before I was saved, but I did not know it was Him. I was raised in Reform Judaism and was very active in two different Jewish youth groups when I was in high school.
One thing that I enjoyed was the singing.
I later learned that my two favorite songs are taken directly from the Bible (we just sang them and I had no idea that they had been from the Bible since we were not encouraged to read it.)


When I went to college I decided the Jewish religion,that I had experienced at least, was hypocritical and I stopped participating in it.
Several years later, a co-worker of mine, who had prayed for my salvation for 3 1/2 years, invited me to her house and preached the gospel to me.
I had more questions than she and her husband could answer, but he told me "why don't you just try it"?
So, I did. I read through a tract with them and prayed "the sinners prayer". I figured I was probably just wasting my breath because I did not think Jesus was God but I did it anyway and was baptised as well.
I had no concept that anything should change in my life, but after that, everything did change.
I was happy for no good reason at all when I should have still been unhappy and I felt so different in the next few weeks that I thought I might be pregnant and I went and took a home pregnancy test.

I was not pregnant, but there was a new life in me - the life of the Lord.
Since then I have experienced Him as joy, peace, faith, hope and guideance. I have heard Him speak through others and have experienced Him speaking through me as well.

I know that God exists because I experience Him.
I know His presence and that He is real and I share my experience of Him with other saints (believers who are alive).

I have never had any experience of dead people like that, nor would I think it would be a good thing since the Bible says not to try to contact dead people.

 

[Rhamiel]

St.Joan of Arc saw visions of St.Catherine and St. Margaret, and St.Michael, but he is an angel so that does not really count because you seem interested in saints who are dead people

 

[christianmomof3]

St.Joan of Arc saw visions of St.Catherine and St. Margaret, and St.Michael, but he is an angel so that does not really count because you seem interested in saints who are dead people

So, ya'll have "Saints" who are angels as well as those who are dead people? I did not know that.
Who decides who is a "Saint" and how is that decided?

 

[Rhamiel]

"saint" is from the latin "santa" or holy, those who are in heaven are holy, if you are with Christ in Heaven you are Holy, that goes for human souls and angels, but we only know the names of three angels so that is not a big deal.
so we on earth are saints, but Saint is a term of respect to those now in heaven.

Who decides who is a "Saint" and how is that decided?

I am not sure how the Orthodox do it, the Catholic Church looks for people who lived a heroic life of faith and lived for God. It starts out five years after the person has died, they normally wait 5 years so any political influence is gone and they might get a more unbiased opinion of the person, and the investigation of the person starts with the local Bishop, if that Bishop thinks the person should be a saint he then sends the case to the vatican, after that I think the Pope just declars someone "blessed" and then after some time it is decided if that person will be recognized as a Saint, I believe the Church is infallible in these things, so I do not think anyone was named a Saint, who is not now in Heaven

 

[Rowan]

Moses was dead, but I thought that Elijah was not.
At any rate, it was Jesus speaking with them, not anyone else. Which would show I suppose, that Jesus can speak with those who have passed on before us, but not that anyone else can. And no one else was told to speak to them. In fact, when Peter offered to make tabernacles for them, the Lord removed Moses and Elijah and said "this is My Son, the Beloved, hear Him" showing that the law (represented by Moses) and the prophets (represented by Elijah) are over and we should hear only Jesus.

Hear only Jesus as in trusting no longer in the law; Christ fulfilled it. A great revelation for the faithful Jews. Not to pay no attention to Moses and Elijah and ask for them to pray for us in the New Covenant. They had been anticipating our salvation through Christ...why wouldn't they be praying for us?

What makes Elijah not "dead"?

And in any case, it shows that they are not just doing nothing, and they can know what's going on in the world, not through their own power, but because of God's grace, just like passage after passage you have been shown does.

He passed through it. Where are we told He trampled it down?

Hades, or Death, has no hold on us anymore because Christ passed through it, recieved the righteous in Hades, and abolished Death. We hold this truth so strongly in our hearts, which is the reason why we don't call saints "dead people". God's people don't die! Christ made sure of that.

As you pointed out, angels are not dead people. Angels are angels, people are people.

Angels do appear in the Bible looking like people.
But, that has nothing to do with dead people.

Both angels and people in heaven are with God, unified by the Spirit. Just as our guardian angels pray for us, why not our saints? The saints will judge the fallen angels...not even God's angels, but the saints. How will they do that if they do that without having known how they have tempted souls? Why do the saints beg for God to take action in Revelations if they don't know what's been going on?

 

[christianmomof3]

What makes Elijah not "dead"?

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

 

[christianmomof3]

Just as our guardian angels pray for us, why not our saints?

Where are we told that we have guardian angels and where are we told that they pray for us?

 

[christianmomof3]

I believe the Church is infallible in these things, so I do not think anyone was named a Saint, who is not now in Heaven

Do you think there are "Saints" or people in heaven whom your church did not vote in?
Could ya'll have missed some?
Or are the only ones there the ones your church voted for?

 

[buzuxi02]

Do you think there are "Saints" or people in heaven whom your church did not vote in?
Could ya'll have missed some?
Or are the only ones there the ones your church voted for?

NO, NO, The Church doesnt "vote" anyone in. It simply acknowledges the fact.

As far as guardian angels- Acts 12.14-15 - Matt 18.10 - Gen 48.16