questions for those who pray to "Saints"

[Thekla]

We may safely assume that they are aware that the faithful on Earth do pray to God. That is consistent with the Revelation imagery.

how are they aware that those on earth pray ?

 

[Asinner]

We may safely assume that they are aware that the faithful on Earth do pray to God. That is consistent with the Revelation imagery.

That does not answer the question.

Love,
Christina

 

[Asinner]

how are they aware that those on earth pray ?

Or, how are they aware of anything that happens on earth?

 

[Uphill Battle]

I'm not sure what you are asking ...

and what difference does that make to capability of contacting those who have passed on?

 

[Thekla]

and what difference does that make to capability of contacting those who have passed on?

is Christ's body (believers) separated by death ?

 

[Albion]

That does not answer the question.

Love,
Christina

Uh, yes it does. There is nothing in the Revelation passage that must mean--as you posited--that the angels hold a bowl containing little pieces of paper with prayers written on them which they present to the Father at our request. Even if you don't understand that Revelation is an allegory and not literal, there is nothing there that says or sugests that the angels have, as you said, "in their possession" prayers from us. There is nothing in it that says or suggests, as you said, that they "obtain" these prayers from us or that it is possible for them to own a prayer!

If you were to ask the governor to pardon a criminal (let's say Charles Manson) whom you believe to be wrongly incarcerated, would it require you to have received a phone call or letter from him in advance? NO.

 

[Uphill Battle]

is Christ's body (believers) separated by death ?

yes.... and no.

I'm not falling in to that trap. They are members of the body. But there is a separation. they are not "dead." but they are.

it isn't a straightforward as saying "oh, their alive, so we can have a chat."

 

[Thekla]

Uh, yes it does. There is nothing in the Revelation passage that must mean--as you posited--that the angels hold a bowl containing little pieces of paper with prayers written on them which they present to the Father at our request. Even if you don't understand that Revelation is an allegory and not literal, there is nothing there that says or sugests that the angels have, as you said, "in their possession" prayers from us. There is nothing in it that says or suggests, as you said, that they "obtain" these prayers from us or that it is possible for them to own a prayer!

If you were to ask the governor to pardon a criminal (let's say Charles Manson) whom you believe to be wrongly incarcerated, would it require you to have received a phone call or letter from him in advance? NO.

if "blepo/see" and "akouo/hear" can be categorized as allegory, then is the transfiguration also allegory ?

 

[Albion]

Or, how are they aware of anything that happens on earth?

Is it not possible, even probable, that they KNOW of our existence and situation (sin, incarnation, salvation, etc.)? That does not mean that we should pray to them. I know what goes on in parts of Africa, but that doesn't mean I am the United Nations ambassador to Zimbabwe.

 

[Thekla]

yes.... and no.

I'm not falling in to that trap. They are members of the body. But there is a separation. they are not "dead." but they are.

it isn't a straightforward as saying "oh, their alive, so we can have a chat."

its not a trap, its a question

 

[Albion]

if "blepo/see" and "akouo/hear" can be categorized as allegory, then is the transfiguration also allegory ?

Context, Thekla. The Apocalypse is described by John himself as not being literal.

 

[Uphill Battle]

its not a trap, its a question

and I answered it.

 

[Asinner]

Uh, yes it does. There is nothing in the Revelation passage that must mean--as you posited--that the angels hold a bowl containing little pieces of paper with prayers written on them which they present to the Father at our request. Even if you don't understand that Revelation is an allegory and not literal, there is nothing there that says or sugests that the angels have, as you said, "in their possession" prayers from us. There is nothing in it that says or suggests, as you said, that they "obtain" these prayers from us or that it is possible for them to own a prayer!

Explain these passages . . .

Rev 5:
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them
harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 8:
3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.


Why do the beasts, the elders, the angel, have the prayers of the saints? Why is the angel offering up these prayers before God? These prayers are very much in the hands of those other than God. How do these prayers come to be in their possession?

If you were to ask the governor to pardon a criminal (let's say Charles Manson) whom you believe to be wrongly incarcerated, would it require you to have received a phone call or letter from him in advance? NO.

Love,
Christina

 

[Asinner]

Context, Thekla. The Apocalypse is described by John himself as not being literal.

Is the testimony of John in regards to the 7 Churches purely allegorical?

The book is both literal and allegory.

Love,
Christina

 

[Albion]

I refer you to my answers already in explanation of these passages as given in posts 91, 88, 86,and 80. Thanks. As always, I'm open to any explanation offered in opposition to what I expressed, so long as it actually responds to the points I made.

Explain these passages . . .

Rev 5:
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them
harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.


Rev 8:
3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.


Why do the beasts, the elders, the angel, have the prayers of the saints? Why is the angel offering up these prayers before God? These prayers are very much in the hands of those other than God. How do these prayers come to be in their possession?





Love,
Christina

 

[Asinner]

I refer you to my answers already in explanation of these passages as given in posts 91, 88, 86,and 80. Thanks.

You never answered the questions and made statements that went against what the Scriptures speak to on this.

Love,
Christina

 

[Thekla]

Context, Thekla. The Apocalypse is described by John himself as not being literal.

I'm not sure where it says that ...

 

[Thekla]

and I answered it.

so we disagree on the 'manifestation' of unity in the body of Christ, thats o.k.

 

[christianmomof3]

Why do the angels who are before the throne of God have our prayers in their possession? (Rev 5 and 8)

Once again, Revelation is symbolic. Here are some footnotes explaining those verses:

Rev. 5:8 And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each having a harp and golden 1bowls full of incense, which bowls are the prayers of the saints.



81 The bowls are the saints' prayers brought to God by the angelic elders (cf. 8:3-4), whereas the incense is Christ added to the saints' prayers. That in their worship to God the twenty-four angelic elders are holding the golden bowls full of incense shows that they, as priests, are ministering to God by bringing the saints' prayers to Him.

Rev. 8:3 And another Angel came and stood at the altar, having a 3golden censer, and much 4incense was given to Him to offer with the prayers of all the 6saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the 1smoke of the incense went up with the prayers of the saints out of the hand of the Angel before God.



Revelation 7 : 2 2 And I saw 1another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom authority was given to harm the earth and the sea,
21 This Angel, as well as the One in 8:3, 10:1, and 18:1, is Christ. In the Old Testament, Christ was called "the Angel of Jehovah"; that Angel was God Himself (Gen. 22:11-12; Exo. 3:2-6; Judg. 6:11-24; Zech. 1:11-12; 2:8-11; 3:1-7). Here in the New Testament He is again referred to as an Angel (a messenger). The expression another Angel indicates that Christ is not a common angel but a special Angel sent by God.

http://online.recoveryversion.org/bibleverses.asp?fvid=7686&lvid=7687&ol=on

 

[Uphill Battle]

so we disagree on the 'manifestation' of unity in the body of Christ, thats o.k.

that we do.

but as you say, that's ok.