questions for those who pray to "Saints"

[Rhamiel]

1. Do you reject the general meaning of the word saint which applies to all those who are believers?
Do you think that "Saints" are only those who are dead?
Do you think that the word saint in the Bible always referred to dead people?
2. Do these "Saints" talk to you? Do they respond to you?

I read it in context, in the bible, and even in modern churches, saints refers to believes alive on earth, it is also used as a title of honor to those who lived heroic lives of faith and are now with our Lord in heaven, (P.S. the Catholic Church does not demand miracles to call declare someone a saint)
I only use the title "Saint" to those who are in heaven, though all christians who love and serve the Lord are saints, I just do not use it that way very often
I have felt the prayers of the saints

 

[Thekla]

beyond that, I've never had it adequately explained, how if this connection exists, that all of the believers have (supposed, as they can have saints hear them if they ask them to pray for them)

that they can't just pray at home to have their friend on the opposite side of the globe hear them so that they can pray for them just like a "S"aint would. (without the benefit of phone, internet et. al.)

if, as is claimed, every believer can contact the saints to pray for them, then the same should apply for those still here. It does not.

two things:

1. it can happen

2. there is a degree of spiritual maturity needed; those in heaven are certainly more "spiritually mature" than the majority of us yet on earth

 

[Uphill Battle]

two things:

1. it can happen

2. there is a degree of spiritual maturity needed; those in heaven are certainly more "spiritually mature" than the majority of us yet on earth

1) really. Should happen all the time.

2) an unprovable, unquantifiable assertion. Hence, a "proof" of how it happens, that cannot be argued. It's a "it just is."

 

[Uphill Battle]

two things:

1. it can happen

2. there is a degree of spiritual maturity needed; those in heaven are certainly more "spiritually mature" than the majority of us yet on earth

1) really. Should happen all the time.

2) an unprovable, unquantifiable assertion. Hence, a "proof" of how it happens, that cannot be argued. It's a "it just is."

 

[Thekla]

1) really. Should happen all the time.

2) an unprovable, unquantifiable assertion. Hence, a "proof" of how it happens, that cannot be argued. It's a "it just is."

and, God is with us all the time; do we always "hear him" ?

it was known (Acts) that Paul would be martyred; many entreated him not to go ... how is this different ? The Bible does indicate that there are those who are more and less "spiritually mature" and a variety of gifts.

 

[Thekla]

1) really. Should happen all the time.

2) an unprovable, unquantifiable assertion. Hence, a "proof" of how it happens, that cannot be argued. It's a "it just is."

and, God is with us all the time; do we always "hear him" ?

it was known (Acts) that Paul would be martyred; many entreated him not to go ... how is this different ? The Bible does indicate that there are those who are more and less "spiritually mature" and a variety of gifts.

 

[Thekla]

1) really. Should happen all the time.

2) an unprovable, unquantifiable assertion. Hence, a "proof" of how it happens, that cannot be argued. It's a "it just is."

and, God is with us all the time; do we always "hear him" ?

it was known (Acts) that Paul would be martyred; many entreated him not to go ... how is this different ? The Bible does indicate that there are those who are more and less "spiritually mature" and a variety of gifts.

 

[Uphill Battle]

and, God is with us all the time; do we always "hear him" ?

it was known (Acts) that Paul would be martyred; many entreated him not to go ... how is this different ? The Bible does indicate that there are those who are more and less "spiritually mature" and a variety of gifts.

no. But he always hears us.

and I know about the passages with gifts for some, and less for others.

that really doesn't answer the question, in my mind.

I do appreciate your attempt though. At least you won't blow a gasket because I don't agree.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I thought the final resurrection wouldn't occur until the last day, and that we'd be on earth..

 

[Asinner]

I spent the summer with a very pious woman who had more stories of saintly intercession than I have memory function. She spoke very glibly of these encounters, and reminded me of a child. Miracles and Gifts do not happen to those who seek after them, but to the pure of heart. Thekla's accounts remind me of this woman's experiences.

Love,
Christina

 

[buzuxi02]

3. I have seen this verse used to justify praying to "Saints" Rev. 5:8 And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each having a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which bowls are the prayers of the saints.

So, what do you think saint means in that verse? Is it dead people or living people?

I always thought it referred to living people.

Does God talk to you?
just wondering.

Yes, the saints refered to in Rev 5.8 refers to the church militant (the earthly church) . The 24 elders symbolize the church triumphant, those saints that have passed on from this life to the next. They symbolize the 12 tribes of Israel -anotherwords those OT prophets and holy people saved when Christ descended into hades and freed them, and the other 12 are symbolic of the apostles whose foundations make the NT Church, the christian saints in heaven.

The offering of incense is a practise associated with intercessory prayers. The prayers of the multitude rise up along with the incense, and the intercessor of all the prayers is offering the incense on behalf of the flock. Angels are also granted the power to offer the intercessory prayers of the earthly saints (Rev 8.3) and yes, our prayers are brought to remembrance before God by those holy people (saints) and are answered (Zech 1.12-14)


This is best demonstrated in the gospel of Luke when the lot to burn incense fell to the priest Zacharias.

This temple service mentioned in Lk 1.8-21 gathered the people outside the temple to pray "at the hour of Incense"(Lk1.10). Meanwhile the priest was "inside" burining the incense at the altar of incense.

This foreshadows what takes place now when christians pray thru the heavenly saints and is revealed in Rev 5.8. The one inside the temple (Zacharias)is symbolic of the Church Triumphant; those in heaven and closer to God -who are now offering the incense on behalf of the entire flock which call upon them. Those outside the temple is the earthly church who pray to the heavenly priests, offering the earthly flocks prayers thru the incense.

In Lk 1.13, the angel appears to Zacharias telling him ,"Fear not Zacharias for thy prayer is heard..." The people outside praying knew that something wonderful had happened (v 21-23).

In the OT deuterocanonical book in TOBIT 12.12-15 we read:

"Now therefore when thou didst pray and Sara thy daughter in law, I did bring the remembrance of your prayers before the Holy One; and when didst bury the dead i was wth thee likewise.....I am Raphael one of the Seven Holy Angels which present the prayers of the saints and go in and out before the glory of the Holy One".

Compare what is being said in this OT book with the actions of the priest Zacharias who went in and out of the temple and presented the prayers of his people who stood outside the altar and temple praying, then compare with whats said in Rev 8.2-4. Its important to stress whats taught in Rev 8.3, that "....There was given unto him much incense that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints..." The incense is given by God himself, God grants such a privelege, it pleases God and the Church calls this the Communion of the Saints.

 

[Albion]

As with all the other Bible verses that are used to justify praying to saints, this one doesn't say to do it.

But when using Revelation, one needs especially to be in mind of the fact that this book is a vast analogy, not literal instructions on morals or manners. Right at the start, John wrote that this was what he "saw," not what he was preaching.

 

[Uphill Battle]

As with all the other Bible verses that are used to justify praying to saints, this one doesn't say to do it.

But when using Revelation, one needs especially to be in mind of the fact that this book is a vast analogy, not literal instructions on morals or manners. Right at the start, John wrote that this was what he "saw," not what he was preaching.

very true.

 

[Thekla]

As with all the other Bible verses that are used to justify praying to saints, this one doesn't say to do it.

But when using Revelation, one needs especially to be in mind of the fact that this book is a vast analogy, not literal instructions on morals or manners. Right at the start, John wrote that this was what he "saw," not what he was preaching.

"... come and see ..."

 

[christianmomof3]

"... come and see ..."

 

[Rhamiel]

John wrote that this was what he "saw," not what he was preaching.

Well how do you know what he was preaching?
the apostolic faith traditions go back to the time of the apostles, the protestant faith traditions go back to about the 1500's

 

[Uphill Battle]

Well how do you know what he was preaching?
the apostolic faith traditions go back to the time of the apostles, the protestant faith traditions go back to about the 1500's

standard response, which doesn't convince much of whether or not we should read the Revelation as a pastoral letter, or a vison.

 

[Thekla]

Well how do you know what he was preaching?
the apostolic faith traditions go back to the time of the apostles, the protestant faith traditions go back to about the 1500's

which suggests the question; what of revelation* can we safely dismiss ?

* not the book

 

[Rhamiel]

standard response, which doesn't convince much of whether or not we should read the Revelation as a pastoral letter, or a vison.

why not both?

 

[Albion]

Well how do you know what he was preaching?

What I was pointing to was this fact about the Book of Revelation. It was a vision or dream or something like that which John had. It was not instruction in the way that Paul's epistles and most of the New Testament books are. And in case anyone doubts this, read the beginning of the book where John says it just that way --"I saw...." In fact, he uses that terminology repeatedly in the book. This means that what is referred to is not, strictly speaking, a literal recommendation or explanation of fact, so much as a report on the details of his vision.

the protestant faith traditions go back to about the 1500's

If this has anything to do with the issue, which I doubt, let me correct you. The Protestant faith (sic) does not rely upon anyone's traditions, but on the Bible. During the Reformation, the Protestant case was always made upon the Scriptures, which, as you know, went back to the beginning, not to the 1500s.