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What can I tell you. All I have gotten in response from my exegesis of numerous passages is "No, they don't say that."
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.That's wrong. There never was a consensus on that.
Heavenly beings we may call Saints, but not necessarily deceased humans, pray.
Saints offer prayers on our behalf.
Saints may be aware that we here do pray.
We do not know or agree that Saints hear our individual prayers -- whether addressed to them or to God--and then intercede with the Father as a result.
Pretty much anything not in the Bible does not matter!It really doesn't matter if someone saw a vision, addressed relics, thought about what an angel might do for him, spoke to an angel, had a dream, or anything like these events.
All that is germaine to this discussion is whether the Bible shows us anyone PRAYING to the deceased or to spirits.
I am sorry that the overall Orthodox population of Christian Forums has either not been blessed like this nor is sharing.I suppose that it is similar to proving the existence of God to an athiest.
But, we are Christians.
We know God.
And we have the Bible to prove that He exists and we have other members of the Body, the church who also can help to support His existence.
What I asked for in this thread was Biblical support or personal experience of "Saints".
So far I have seen neither.
you're right. I'm being unfair.So you are arguing my intent after I explained it. I can think of only one reason for you to do so, and it isn't a good one.
Now, back to MY point, which is that the assumed grounding of the argument- prove it from the bible- is both impossible and presumptive- for anything.
Is the bible the "pillar and ground of truth?"
I personally do not rely on the experiences of other people or on stories to validate my belief.I am sorry that the overall Orthodox population of Christian Forums has either not been blessed like this nor is sharing.
Perhaps you should try to visit an Orthodox parish and ask around?
There probably is not one verse that explicitly says "thou shalt pray to the Saints in heaven" (I wouldn't know, I haven't read the whole thing) but, there are verses that point in the direction of support and there are 2,000 years worth of stories, experiences and so forth of people whom have been blessed by God with a visit from their saint or a saint in some way, shape or form.
I think that having read of a few, that is evidence and validation enough.
I personally do not rely on the experiences of other people or on stories to validate my belief.
I know God and experience Him and that validates my belief - not other people's stories.
God should be real to you because He is and because you personally know Him - not because of stuff that other people tell you.
I have read the entire Bible several times and I highly suggest that you do so also.
I am currently reading it following a chronological reading plan and it is really neat and interesting to read it that way.
It does not seem that you have had your own experiences of "Saints" either or else if you have, you have not been willing to share them either. And that is ok.
But, I really strongly suggest that you read the entire Bible as soon as possible. Start now and either follow some sort of read in one year or in two years or whatever - reading plan and read it through. Pray as you read it and ask the Lord to guide you and that you will be washed by the water of the word each time you read it and that the Lord will show you more and more of Himself as you read His word.
I am praying for you that you will come to know the living Lord in a real and living way.
Not validation in belief in God, but validation in belief that the saints not only know of our prayers, can hear them, pray on them, but also at times (if God sees fit) may visit or something like that.
That's the validation I was referring to (sorry if I confused ya)
It is up to you what spiritual road you walk.Cool. I'll take it up with my Spiritual Father.
The last thing that he recommended that I read has helped me to become a better person in many areas of my life.
Like I said, I'll take it up with my SF. The opinion and instruction of any SF to the Average George Orthodox is valued and respected more than the Average Joe on the street.
But please, allow me to walk this spiritual road that I'm on. It has helped me and made me a better person and I pray that it will continue to do so (also ask for St. Constantine to pray and may more!)
Ok, I can see it from your POV, the Bible says do not practice necromancyOK, and I respect your desire to walk your own walk of faith, but if we could all let down our denominational guards at this point, do you not appreciate even a little the perception we have? That is to say, that even though the Bible is agreed to by everyone here to be divine revelation, we reformed Christians spend a lot of time being told not to trust it by Christians who, at the same time as they are saying something along those lines, are confortable taking the word of some neighbor about a matter as dubious as dealings with spirits -- calling THAT human testimony adequate "validation." (If I understood you correctly when you used that term.)
Ok, I can see it from your POV, the Bible says do not practice necromancy
I do not see praying to saints = necromancy
also it seems very arogent that people think they know better then the christians who were taught by the apostles, the practice of praying to saints is very old, it goes back to the early church
So in the Orthodox religion do you think that reading the Bible is dangerous?a note on the role of a "spiritual father" ;
this role is attested to in the writings of St. Paul, re Timothy - for example
the epistles (letters) of St. Paul are, in fact, all from the 'pen' of a spiritual father to his spiritual children
"... where two or three are gathered ..."
doing too much, doing too little; trying to advance too fast, or failing to advance (too slow) -- all can be spiritually dangerous for a Christian.
noSo in the Orthodox religion do you think that reading the Bible is dangerous?
Do you tell people that they have to get permission to do that?
no
(if I could scan, or type faster, I could give you lengthy quotes and homilies dating from, for example, the 4th century; we have been always admonished to read scriptures (for those who were literate, and owned Bibles. St. Constantine the Great sponsored the first "mass production of Bibles, only 50, but alot in an era where it took about a year to produce one Bible.)
but to introduce a program, one should consult someone who knows the person, and their spiritual progress, well. For some, the Bible in one year would indicate "spiritual laziness", for another with many obligations or suffering from prelest or spiritual shallowness, such a goal could indicate disinterest in one's obligations or pride.
also to note, the typical EO practice is to read the book of Psalms once over the course of the week (divided into three sets of Psalms a day, and two sets on Sunday). During Lent, the recommendation is doubled. There are additional daily readings from the Bible as well. And it is recommended to read the Bible in addition to the Psalms and readings which respond to the "Liturgical Calendar" (reading along with our community, if you will).
Ok, thank you. Because the brother is a young man who has not yet read the entire Bible, I did suggest that he read it.
I saw that ya'll had some Bible reading guidelines on TAW so I assumed that you did encourage it, but was not sure when he said that he would ask about reading it.
We encourage all of the young people in our church to read the Bible through.
Usually with the Jr. High, we recommend that they read a chapter a night of the New Testament. When they are in High School, we recommend that they follow a reading plan and read the entire Bible. For some of them it may be a two year plan and for others it may be just a chapter a night still depending on where they are in their spiritual walk.
One of the first things that I did after being saved was to read the whole Bible - and it was so incredible to me!
So, I really strongly recommend that everyone read it through if they have not.
Go ahead, it's a forum isn't it?
OK, and I respect your desire to walk your own walk of faith, but if we could all let down our denominational guards at this point, do you not appreciate even a little the perception we have? That is to say, that even though the Bible is agreed to by everyone here to be divine revelation, we reformed Christians spend a lot of time being told not to trust it by Christians who, at the same time as they are saying something along those lines, are confortable taking the word of some neighbor about a matter as dubious as dealings with spirits -- calling THAT human testimony adequate "validation." (If I understood you correctly when you used that term.)
It is up to you what spiritual road you walk.
I realize that you are rather new to the Orthodox religion
and I know very little about it, but I cannot imagine that you would have to ask your "Spiritual Father" if you should read the Bible.
I would hope that the Orthodox religion would allow anyone within it to chose to read the Bible if they so desire and would encourage all to do so.
What about when we get sidetracked? How to we get back in view of where God is when sight of Him is lost?We certainly are blessed to have brothers and sisters in Christ to help us in our Christian life, but we all can go to the Lord on our own.
But, they are results of pursuing Christ and are from Him, but they are not our goal.
Our goal is God Himself and it is Him we should pursue, not being a better person or anything else.
Too true. Far, far too true. Many times, people fall and never recover.doing too much, doing too little; trying to advance too fast, or failing to advance (too slow) -- all can be spiritually dangerous for a Christian.
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