Rdr Iakovos
Well-Known Member
On your terms, with you setting the grounding of the argument. Just like when the atheist insists we prove the existence of God, your notion of discussion to me seems like anything but.
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On your terms, with you setting the grounding of the argument. Just like when the atheist insists we prove the existence of God, your notion of discussion to me seems like anything but.Whatever makes your juices flow, I guess. I'm interested in serious discussion. Get back to me when you are.
What I asked for in this thread was Biblical support or personal experience of "Saints".
So far I have seen neither.
well done.On your terms, with you setting the grounding of the argument. Just like when the atheist insists we prove the existence of God, your notion of discussion to me seems like anything but.
the matter of Biblical support on "asking the Saints" for intercession depends on one's 'interpretation' ; if one views the Bible (and I do not offer this as a 'complete' charachterization') as an instruction manual, then no - you will not find what you have requested. But ultimately, it reflects a much deeper difference -- a difference in Soteriology; the understanding of Christ's salvific role for us, and its impact in our lives. Our views on this matter seem to be very different. In part, our understanding of the resurrection and Pentecost are perhaps widely variant. I do not offer this as a value judgement, but as an observation.I suppose that it is similar to proving the existence of God to an athiest.
But, we are Christians.
We know God.
And we have the Bible to prove that He exists and we have other members of the Body, the church who also can help to support His existence.
What I asked for in this thread was Biblical support or personal experience of "Saints".
So far I have seen neither.
the matter of Biblical support on "asking the Saints" for intercession depends on one's 'interpretation' ; if one views the Bible (and I do not offer this as a 'complete' charachterization') as an instruction manual, then no
per the matter of the experience of the Saints, I have offered some.
My own experience was clarified by the comments, as I related, made by a protestant. And from non-EO I have heard of many experiences, too. And of 'hearing' the needs of living Christians.
given the persistent characterization made re: the Saints (necromancy, magic, worship) what would be the point of relating more ?
What can I tell you. All I have gotten in response from my exegesis of numerous passages is "No, they don't say that." More power to anyone who is satisfied with themselves for giving that response to the verses that show prayer to heavenly Saints.There are no verses in the Bible that show praying to the saints.
Even if they are able to hear us, that doesn't show us that it is proper to direct prayers to them.
perhaps it was St. Maximos who said that the OT is our body, the NT our soul and our nous. We are instructed, by word and example in the scriptures, but we are not completed there.I never know whether to be alarmed or saddened whenever someone says this. What do you call the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, and most of the rest of what Jesus taught his disciples IF NOT instruction? Take it or leave it musings?
I don't understand ...But not about the topic here--praying to them.
it was earlier on, the first few pages. But to say "tales", I cannot agree; accounts by others, some who I know personally, are not mine to share.I may have missed something posted in the past, but the request was for a personal experience, not tales about what someone else said.
I'm sorry you are disappointed. It does seem we have a different understanding of Soteriology. I have a long way to go ... I do not have the answers you and ChristianMomof 3 want.I'm disappointed in having you going for that cop-out. Most of what has been posted has nothing to do with such criticisms.
perhaps it was St. Maximos who said that the OT is our body, the NT our soul and our nous. We are instructed, by word and example in the scriptures, but we are not completed there.
We are only completed by He who heals and completes. The beatitudes are a ladder -- when we reach the top, do we stop ? If we truly advance, we advance to Love.
it was earlier on, the first few pages. But to say "tales", I cannot agree; accounts by others, some who I know personally, are not mine to share.
I'm sorry you are disappointed. It does seem we have a different understanding of Soteriology. I have a long way to go ... I do not have the answers you and ChristianMomof 3 want.
I equated the argument. You saw me equating the person. Perhaps yo need to adjust your vision.well done.
you managed to equate the "other side" with Muslims, and atheists, in as little as two posts.
how often I see this.
I agree that there are many different interpretations of the Bible and that not everything we believe is found there. I think you are correct that our understandings of Christ and how He works may be quite different which can be part of the difficulty in understanding one another.the matter of Biblical support on "asking the Saints" for intercession depends on one's 'interpretation' ; if one views the Bible (and I do not offer this as a 'complete' charachterization') as an instruction manual, then no - you will not find what you have requested. But ultimately, it reflects a much deeper difference -- a difference in Soteriology; the understanding of Christ's salvific role for us, and its impact in our lives. Our views on this matter seem to be very different. In part, our understanding of the resurrection and Pentecost are perhaps widely variant. I do not offer this as a value judgement, but as an observation.
I do thank you for sharing your experience. I was hoping to hear from other people as well to see a wide variety of people's personal experiences with "Saints".per the matter of the experience of the Saints, I have offered some. There is much more that could be told, and by many. My own experience was clarified by the comments, as I related, made by a protestant. And from non-EO I have heard of many experiences, too. And of 'hearing' the needs of living Christians. But honestly, given the persistent characterization made re: the Saints (necromancy, magic, worship) what would be the point of relating more ?
I guess we may have different understandings of God and how He works and why.So, in summary, we have a vastly different Soteriology, a very different understanding of the role of scripture and Christ in our lives. Which is fine.
Finally, if the Bible were objective proof of the existence of God, there would be vastly more believers than ther are at present. The Bible does not objectively prove anything. For me, that is fine, too. I do not need "objective proof" of His existence any more than I need objective proof of the existence of loved ones I see.
exei o Theos
in Christ
I can think of only one reason that someone would use atheism as a comparison for what another believer is saying. And it isn't a good one.I equated the argument. You saw me equating the person. Perhaps yo need to adjust your vision.
Modern atheism came from the same root as Sola Scriptura- Western Rationalism.
So you are arguing my intent after I explained it. I can think of only one reason for you to do so, and it isn't a good one.I can think of only one reason that someone would use atheism as a comparison for what another believer is saying. And it isn't a good one.
It is in reference to praying for healing. And, it never mentions praying to dead people, nor that "righteous" means dead. In fact, James encourages us all to become righteous.13Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
False dichotomyThat's a fine and clear statement of our position, Christianmom. I regret that it most likely will be responded to by someone or other by saying:
dead=living,
communication=petitioning,
dreaming or seeing = praying,
and that those in heaven are able to do what no one on any side of this argument can know is true.
What this comes down to is what most of these debates come down to--be guided by the Word of God or else be guided by a Church organization.
I'm sure St. Maximos was a very nice person, but it still doesn't make sense to say that the Bible doesn't engage in instruction when it is speaking instructions to us on almost every page.
Fine, but the request was for first-hand experiences with "saints," not hearsay.
Well, it's only because I know you well enough to see that it's not a matter of you being unable to answer but rather of you being disinclined, for some reason or other, to answer.
I did not say that the Bible "doesn't include instruction"
instead, the Bible does not complete us.
my own experience is not "hearsay" to me, but will of course be so to you.
That is all I have to offer.
"hearsay" n. [phrase to hear say] something one has heard but does not know to be true. (Webster). For a person who thinks communication and prayer mean the same thing, I wonder why what everything said by others must be parsed to death.
to repeat, I recounted my own experience.
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