Questions for my Eastern Orthodox Friends

[SinnerInTheHands]

I think this is the right forum, but I have a lot of questions arising out of curiosity towards Eastern Orthodoxy. As you'll see, none of these [I think] are intended for debate, I just really want to learn more about Orthodoxy, as I myself know next to nothing.

1] Do the Orthodox use musical accompaniment during services? I've seen videos of Orthodox services, but I've never been to one [except for a Greek Orthodox wedding when I was younger that I don't really remember] and the liturgy seems to be entirely a cappella. Is this the case throughout Orthodoxy?

2] If the Orthodox do use musical accompaniment, is there a CoWo movement? [Note, I despise CoWo].

3] Why do you the Orthodox make the sign of the cross different from most Western Christians [using the left hand and crossing from right to left]?

4] I've heard the Orthodox don't believe in original sin. How then do they explain the need for grace?

5] What is theosis?

6] Who are the Old Believers? What are the differences in regards to mainstream Russian Orthodoxy? Are the Old Believers still Orthodox?

7] Is Eastern Orthodoxy in communion with the other Orthodox churches?

8] Is Greek Orthodoxy a different Orthodoxy than say, Russian, Ukrainian, or Romanian?

9] What is Church Slavonic?

10] Do the Greek Orthodox worship in Koine?

11] Why do the Orthodox have Icons? Why do the Orthodox not have statues?

12] Do the Orthodox pray to the saints?

13] Do the Orthodox believe in the Real Presence?

14] Do the Orthodox re-baptize adult converts from Protestant denominations? Do they sprinkle? Do they dunk?

15] I know about Pastors, Elders, and Presbyters. What are the differences between Deacons, Archdeacons, Priests, Archpriests, Bishops, Archbishops, and Patriarchs?

16] Do the Russian Orthodox allow non-Orthodox to visit their services?
​

If I have more questions I'll post them as I think them.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think this is the right forum, but I have a lot of questions arising out of curiosity towards Eastern Orthodoxy. As you'll see, none of these [I think] are intended for debate, I just really want to learn more about Orthodoxy, as I myself know next to nothing.

welcome! feel free to ask away!

1] Do the Orthodox use musical accompaniment during services? I've seen videos of Orthodox services, but I've never been to one [except for a Greek Orthodox wedding when I was younger that I don't really remember] and the liturgy seems to be entirely a cappella. Is this the case throughout Orthodoxy?

usually we just sing. the greatest instrument is the human voice, because that's the one God made. there are definitely orchestral and contemporary Orthodox songs and music, but we tend to keep them in parish halls, the old iPod, or a concert. Greeks are known in some places to use an organ.

2] If the Orthodox do use musical accompaniment, is there a CoWo movement? [Note, I despise CoWo].

see above

3] Why do you the Orthodox make the sign of the cross different from most Western Christians [using the left hand and crossing from right to left]?

we use the right hand, and I am not sure why we cross right to left aside from a reminder that God's right hand is where we want to end up.

4] I've heard the Orthodox don't believe in original sin. How then do they explain the need for grace?

we don't believe in original sin as St Augustine wrote it. there was an original sin of Adam that led to mortality and death that we inherit, but we are not guilty of it. we need grace because we are dead in our sins, and God wants us to return to life in Him.

5] What is theosis?

sanctification, partaking of the Divine Nature, and going from glory to glory. we become by grace like God, and since God is infinite and eternal, that growth never ends. we can always be more like Him.

6] Who are the Old Believers? What are the differences in regards to mainstream Russian Orthodoxy? Are the Old Believers still Orthodox?

a schism that happened in Russia a few centuries ago over certain Liturgical practice but not dogma. some have remained in schism, and some have returned to the Church.

7] Is Eastern Orthodoxy in communion with the other Orthodox churches?

none that are outside of canonical Orthodoxy.

8] Is Greek Orthodoxy a different Orthodoxy than say, Russian, Ukrainian, or Romanian?

only in terms of practice, custom, and language. the theology and worship is the same.

9] What is Church Slavonic?

the Church language used in many of the Slavic countries.

10] Do the Greek Orthodox worship in Koine?

some places do.

11] Why do the Orthodox have Icons? Why do the Orthodox not have statues?

icons prove the Incarnation. if God became man, He can be depicted. they also depict the Gospel in color so that you are always looking at what God has done no matter where you are in Church. also, the Jews had Holy Images in the Tabernacle and Temple. we tend not to use statues because it is not our tradition, although you can find small ones in home prayer corners and such.

12] Do the Orthodox pray to the saints?

yep.

13] Do the Orthodox believe in the Real Presence?

yep.

14] Do the Orthodox re-baptize adult converts from Protestant denominations? Do they sprinkle? Do they dunk?

depends on what kind of Protestant they were before, and what the bishop says. most are received through Chrismation. we dunk if at all possible, but can sprinkle if that is the only way it can be done.

15] I know about Pastors, Elders, and Presbyters. What are the differences between Deacons, Archdeacons, Priests, Archpriests, Bishops, Archbishops, and Patriarchs?

Archdeacons are the top deacons at a cathedral. archpriests are priests after a time of service. archbishops are bishops after a time of service. patriarchs are bishops of ancient Sees. but all priests are equal in authority in their priesthood, as are all deacons, and all bishops. these differences are in honor and service, not in authority.

16] Do the Russian Orthodox allow non-Orthodox to visit their services?

indeed they do, that's how many of us became Orthodox.

If I have more questions I'll post them as I think them.

awesome, please do!

 

[Wryetui]

I think this is the right forum, but I have a lot of questions arising out of curiosity towards Eastern Orthodoxy. As you'll see, none of these [I think] are intended for debate, I just really want to learn more about Orthodoxy, as I myself know next to nothing.

1] Do the Orthodox use musical accompaniment during services? I've seen videos of Orthodox services, but I've never been to one [except for a Greek Orthodox wedding when I was younger that I don't really remember] and the liturgy seems to be entirely a cappella. Is this the case throughout Orthodoxy?

2] If the Orthodox do use musical accompaniment, is there a CoWo movement? [Note, I despise CoWo].

3] Why do you the Orthodox make the sign of the cross different from most Western Christians [using the left hand and crossing from right to left]?

4] I've heard the Orthodox don't believe in original sin. How then do they explain the need for grace?

5] What is theosis?

6] Who are the Old Believers? What are the differences in regards to mainstream Russian Orthodoxy? Are the Old Believers still Orthodox?

7] Is Eastern Orthodoxy in communion with the other Orthodox churches?

8] Is Greek Orthodoxy a different Orthodoxy than say, Russian, Ukrainian, or Romanian?

9] What is Church Slavonic?

10] Do the Greek Orthodox worship in Koine?

11] Why do the Orthodox have Icons? Why do the Orthodox not have statues?

12] Do the Orthodox pray to the saints?

13] Do the Orthodox believe in the Real Presence?

14] Do the Orthodox re-baptize adult converts from Protestant denominations? Do they sprinkle? Do they dunk?

15] I know about Pastors, Elders, and Presbyters. What are the differences between Deacons, Archdeacons, Priests, Archpriests, Bishops, Archbishops, and Patriarchs?

16] Do the Russian Orthodox allow non-Orthodox to visit their services?
​

If I have more questions I'll post them as I think them.

Hehe, remember when I told you to come and to inform about an apostolic Church in a previous discussion we had? You cannot imagine how happy you made me for coming here to ask Matt already answered you very fine but I want to answer your questions too.

1. No. God put in us the power and the ability to sing. Because of this, man doesn't need an instrument to praise God the Almighty. Our voice is a gift from our Creator, and this gift have to be developed and not replaced. The best "instruments" for praising God will always be our mouths and our hearts.

2. See above.

3. Actually our sign of the cross is the original one. Catholics signed like us until the 12th century. A proof of this are the writings of the early christians and theologians, like Theodoret of Cyrus which in the 4th century described the sign of the cross exactly as we make it today: "This is how to bless someone with your hand and make the sign of the cross over them. Hold three fingers, as equals, together, to represent the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. These are not three gods, but one God in Trinity. The names are separate, but the divinity one. The Father was never incarnate; the Son incarnate, but not created; the Holy Ghost neither incarnate nor created, but issued from the Godhead: three in a single divinity. Divinity is one force and has one honor. They receive on obeisance from all creation, both angels and people. Thus the decree for these three fingers.

You should hold the other two fingers slightly bent, not completely straight. This is because these represent the dual nature of Christ, divine and human. God in His divinity, and human in His incarnation, yet perfect in both. The upper finger represents divinity, and the lower humanity; this way salvation goes from the higher finger to the lower. So is the bending of the fingers interpreted, for the worship of Heaven comes down for our salvation. This is how you must cross yourselves and give a blessing, as the holy fathers have commanded."

4. The guilt supposedly inherited from the original sin is not accepted in our theology. When Augustin of Hippo wrote about it it wasn't accepted between our theologians and that's why they only gave him the title of "Blessed" and not "Saint" as in the West. We need grace because God created us for His grace, because in His grace we are united with Him. Our understanding of grace is also different than the West's, for us, grace is not something created that can be treated like a commodity like in the West, but for us grace is something that eternally flows from the divine essence and it is the uncreated energies of God.

5. In Eastern Orthodoxy deification (theosis) is a transformative process whose goal is likeness to or union with God. As a process of transformation, theosis is brought about by the effects of katharsis (purification of mind and body) and theoria. According to Eastern Orthodox teaching, theosis is very much the purpose of human life. It is considered achievable only through a synergy (or cooperation) between human activity and God's uncreated energies (or operations).

6. The Old believers are a sect that separated from the Orthodox Church in the 17th century and they were from Russia. They separated because the Church decided to adapt the liturgical calendar and they refused it, that's why they schismed from It.

7. Eastern Orthodoxy means the Orthodox Church. Maybe you referred to Oriental Orthodoxy, they are not in communion with us and schismed from the Church because they didn't accepted the council of Chalcedon.

8. No, we are all the same and completely equal Church. The only thing that differs is lenguage, but the liturgy, the theology and absolutely everything else is the same because we are one and single Church. The nationalities before the "Church" implies only the country the Church is in and their jurisdiction in administrative stuff but that doesn't make us different at all.

9. Church Slavonic or New Church Slavonic is the conservative Slavic liturgical language used by the Orthodox Church in Bulgaria, Poland, Russia, Serbia, Montenegro, Republic of Macedonia and Ukraine. The language also occasionally appears in the services of the Orthodox Church in America and the Czech and Slovak lands. It was also used by the Orthodox Churches in Romanian lands until the late 17th and early 18th centuries, as well as by Roman Catholic Croatians in the early Middle Ages.

10. The majority use modern greek but there may be some that use koine.

11. Apart from what Matt said, we do not have statues because the Seventh Ecumenical council established that icons were the propper and genuine form to praise God. Also, statues remind us of pagan idols, and icons are for us a mistery, a window to Heaven, something we cannot reach with our minds, not like statues that are something earthly.

12. Yes.

13. Of course we do. At the Eucharist, in the chalice, the real and actual blood of Jesus Christ is present, and the real and actual body of Jesus Christ is present, as it was in the Last Supper.

14. It depends, it has to be talked to a priest.

15. It's the Church rank, Matt explained it well.

16. All the Orthodox churches allow non-orthodox to visit their services.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Thank you both for your responses! They have generated even more questions:

1] I've heard that the typical Orthodox Divine Liturgy is anywhere from 1 3/4 to 3 1/2 hours long. Is this accurate? Do people stay the entire time, or just wander in and out and then gather together for communion.

2] Do the Orthodox have to go to confession before receiving the sacrament weekly? Do most do this?

3] Do the Orthodox have to abstain from certain foods on certain days every week? Do most do this?

4] Why does an Orthodox cross have three bars?

5] What's that huge wall that separates the altar from the rest of the church covered in icons? Do the icons have to be in a certain order? Do they mean anything? Is there a reason the altar is separated from the nave? Is the wall supposed to be the temple veil?

6] I've heard that in addition to communion, they also pass around "sacred bread." What is this, why do they pass it around, and is it open for all to eat?

7] Why do the Orthodox eat communion with a spoon?

8] Why do many Orthodox churches lack pews?

 

[Anhelyna]

7) - we don't eat Communion - we are given it by our priest from a spoon - we just open our mouths and he drops the Body and Blood of Christ into our open mouths. Remember that when the priest Communes us , in the chalice are both the body and blood of Christ so on the spoon is a particle of what has now become the body of Christ and also some of the Most precious Blood of Our Lord God and Saviour.

This is very different from the way that Lain Catholics Receive Communion - with them the two elements are given separately though it is emphasised to them that both contain the Body and Blood despite the physical appearance .

With us - both Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholics, the priest during the Consecration of the Holy Gifts places the bread which is now the Body of Christ into the Chalice containing what is not the Blood of Christ . This way we Receive both at the same time.

 

[ArmyMatt]

1] I've heard that the typical Orthodox Divine Liturgy is anywhere from 1 3/4 to 3 1/2 hours long. Is this accurate? Do people stay the entire time, or just wander in and out and then gather together for communion.

the Liturgy is anywhere from 1 to 1 and a half hours long. it's longer when other services come before or after it.

2] Do the Orthodox have to go to confession before receiving the sacrament weekly? Do most do this?

depends on the priest.

3] Do the Orthodox have to abstain from certain foods on certain days every week? Do most do this?

yes. usually no meat or dairy on Wed and Fri to remember Christ's betrayal and death respectively.

4] Why does an Orthodox cross have three bars?

the other two bars are the sign and the footrest. the footrest is angled to the right to remember the two thieves. the one on the right repented and kept his eye on heavenly things, the one on the left only sought that which is earthly.

5] What's that huge wall that separates the altar from the rest of the church covered in icons? Do the icons have to be in a certain order? Do they mean anything? Is there a reason the altar is separated from the nave? Is the wall supposed to be the temple veil?

it's called the iconostasis or icon screen. the icons do have meaning and usually are in a particular order (and not just on the iconostasis), but that is a whole topic on it's own. the reason the altar area is separated is because it is the holy place in the Church. and the Temple veil actually points to the iconostasis.

6] I've heard that in addition to communion, they also pass around "sacred bread." What is this, why do they pass it around, and is it open for all to eat?

it's called antidoron. for those who communed it helps ensure the Eucharist is consumed. for those who did not commune, it is blessed so it is a blessing for them. anyone can have the antidoron.

7] Why do the Orthodox eat communion with a spoon?

it keeps the Eucharist from being abused, helps ensure it is entirely consumed.

8] Why do many Orthodox churches lack pews?

because we stand for services due to Christ being risen. it also helps the laity participate (since we all stand with the clergy), rather than just be spectators (forgive the crudeness, but that is the only word I could think of) of what the clergy are doing.

 

[gzt]

To clarify where the antidoron comes from: essentially, we make communion from loaves of bread. We don't use the entire loaf. The rest is the stuff that was not used for communion (so it was not consecrated to be the eucharist - it's just bread).

How the iconostas originated: we displayed icons in front of the altar. Then we got more, and then we developed a structure to hang the icons on, and then we adorned it more... One of the things, though, is that we believe that when we look at icons, we are looking as it were at a window into heaven, and that's one of the reasons we started putting icons in front of the altar area in the first place. We have an altar, people are looking there, we'll put up pictures of Christ and the Virgin Mary, we're looking into heaven, and it builds up from there. So it's not intended as a big secret wall of separation to hide the mysteries of the holy priests away from the sniveling laity, though certainly some discretion is intended. After all, we pray right before communion that we should not betray Christ's mysteries to His enemies, but rather confess Him as the thief did. In these days, we allow people who are not of the faithful to be present.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Speaking of the view behind the altar - one of the deacon's doors were opened longer than normal today and I got to see a part before the Great Entrance that I normally don't see.

But Holy Trinity in Dallas has a smaller side cathedral where they have Liturgy on feast days during the week, and the "iconostasis" is essentially mounted to the front wall on either side of the altar area, leaving the altar and entire front area open to view. The sunlight streaming in with the smoke of the incense rising ...

I like those liturgies because I could see everything. Now that I know quite a bit more than I did last year, I wish I could watch again ...

 

[~Anastasia~]

Btw, people do tend to arrive for our services anywhere from the start of Martins (the service before the Liturgy, usually just a few at that point), to the beginning of the Liturgy (more than half are usually there), to the reading of the Gospel (a few late arrivals - technically if you are not there by the time the Gospel is read, Father said they used to not be allowed to commune). Sometimes a family (usually one with lots of small children and a distance to drive) might not arrive until just before communion, but that can be frowned on.

There is some movement, but most stay from the time they arrive until after receiving the Eucharist (the children and teachers go to Sunday school then, and a few might sneak away), but nearly all besides those in Sunday school stay until the dismissal, which is usually about 15 minutes after communion is completed unless there is another service(s) after that.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Our Church worships in an Ancient Greek language. I'm still trying to figure out if it's actually Koine, but it's definitely not modern Greek.

And aren't there "Old Believers" in Greece too, or are they called something else there? Maybe "Old Calendarists?" But I'm not sure since some canonical Churches use the Old Calendar? Some very dear people in my parish do, and I try to remember to wish them Xronia Polla 13 days later as well ...

Baptism is ideally triple immersion (in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit). But as someone said, if allowances have to be made, they are acceptable. Mine was actually poured, not quite dunked.

And it used to be that part of the service was only for baptized Orthodox Christians. In monasteries, they tend to separate non-Orthodox into an outer room but they can still hear and see what's going on. It used to be strictly private, and even catechumens were not allowed (monasteries - all the ones I have checked on - still require the catechumens to go into a slightly separate room for the second part of the Liturgy). That might be what you heard about? But Churches will allow anyone to visit and be in the Church the entire time.

 

[Anhelyna]

Kylissa - I agree with you re seeing what goes on behind the Iconostasis. It's not easy for us women .

My GodPapa after a while [ some months IIRC ] took me to our Cathedral in London one day for Liturgy. Now the Cathedral is quite old - converted from a protestant Church but it's lovely and with one superb feature - a Balcony. What's superb about that ? Well it's U shaped and goes right round the Church - the choir are in the centre of it at the opposite end to the Altar. and families do use the rest of the balcony. GodPapa took me up there this Sunday [ he was singing with the Choir ] and sat me where I could see everything behind the Iconostas and said he would ask questions afterwards. The object of that lesson was to teach me how everything in the Liturgy fitted together - not just the peoples parts - I was to see how the priests parts worked - starting right from the Proskomedia. I learned a lot that day - I understood why some phrases were repeated , why the tempo was so important.

 

[buzuxi02]

Our Church worships in an Ancient Greek language. I'm still trying to figure out if it's actually Koine, but it's definitely not modern Greek.

The greek liturgy is koine greek. No revisions have ever been made to update any scriptural passages so what you listen to in church is the original koine form (along with everything else). Koine didnt evolve towards Byzantine medievel Greek until after the 7th century.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The greek liturgy is koine greek. No revisions have ever been made to update any scriptural passages so what you listen to in church is the original koine form (along with everything else). Koine didnt evolve towards Byzantine medievel Greek until after the 7th century.

Thanks, Buzuxi. That's what I thought but some comments from others made me doubt. It's difficult enough for me to work on learning it - I don't know at all the nuances from one place/time to another. I pick up more and more of the spoken Greek in conversations around me (I still don't understand much) but I can't see major differences, though I'm told they are there. (I do know some words in modern Greek are just totally different from the liturgical Greek.)

 

[~Anastasia~]

Kylissa - I agree with you re seeing what goes on behind the Iconostasis. It's not easy for us women .

My GodPapa after a while [ some months IIRC ] took me to our Cathedral in London one day for Liturgy. Now the Cathedral is quite old - converted from a protestant Church but it's lovely and with one superb feature - a Balcony. What's superb about that ? Well it's U shaped and goes right round the Church - the choir are in the centre of it at the opposite end to the Altar. and families do use the rest of the balcony. GodPapa took me up there this Sunday [ he was singing with the Choir ] and sat me where I could see everything behind the Iconostas and said he would ask questions afterwards. The object of that lesson was to teach me how everything in the Liturgy fitted together - not just the peoples parts - I was to see how the priests parts worked - starting right from the Proskomedia. I learned a lot that day - I understood why some phrases were repeated , why the tempo was so important.

What a blessing for you!

My SF assigned some study of parts of the Liturgy and their significance - wow, it goes a lot deeper than I realized! There would be no way to know some of these things if they weren't told explicitly. So if I can't see them, AND I'm never told, there are certainly many things I'm missing. It's really amazing how so MANY intricate details fit together in such rich symbolism. And I know my understanding is very elementary at this point.

(I'm still trying to figure out how the choir director can spare a 2-second glance over his shoulder at Father at the altar, and know how many more repetitions of what parts are necessary for the Cherubic Hymn to end at the correct point for the Great Entrance!)

 

[Cappadocious]

Is the wall supposed to be the temple veil?

Yes and no. No because, despite the error in translating from Slavonic that often occurs, Orthodox churches are not temples.

(To some of the spectators) I know, I know, you were told it was a temple. You're really sure it's a temple. Well, shoot, it's not. So, in Slavonic, the word for temple and house and church was often the same, or something like that. The same thing happened with "writing" icons when graphein (to write) was brought over from Greek, where you often hear Americans talking about how icons are written (they're not written anymore than a photograph is). Long story short it is theologically nonsensical for Christians to call a church building a temple.

That said, the Royal Doors on the iconostasis do represent the temple veil, which in turn represents the divison. In fact, in the Middle East and in Coptic churches, you often see an actual veil instead of doors. The purpose is that the altar area represents heaven, and during the Divine Liturgy the veil is opened to represent the tearing of the veil and Christ's removal of the enmity and division between heaven and earth, God and man. The Eucharist is brought to the people from the torn veil and is the participation in the unity.

We believe that the Divine Liturgy "blurs" or "fudges" reality in such a way as to bring us somehow to the Cross, the Tomb, the Resurrection, the Ascension, the Enthronement and the Second Coming as those things are re-capitulated in the Coming Age. I think this also happens whenever we pray according to the name of Christ (rather than simply invoking his name).

 

[ArmyMatt]

The purpose is that the altar area represents heaven, and during the Divine Liturgy the veil is opened to represent the tearing of the veil and Christ's removal of the enmity and division between heaven and earth, God and man. The Eucharist is brought to the people from the torn veil and is the participation in the unity.

it's also the stone in front of the Tomb. when the curtain is pulled open and the Eucharist is brought forth, it is the stone being rolled away to show that the risen Christ is not in the Tomb.

 

[Abel Gkiouzelis]

I think this is the right forum, but I have a lot of questions arising out of curiosity towards Eastern Orthodoxy. As you'll see, none of these [I think] are intended for debate, I just really want to learn more about Orthodoxy, as I myself know next to nothing.

1] Do the Orthodox use musical accompaniment during services? I've seen videos of Orthodox services, but I've never been to one [except for a Greek Orthodox wedding when I was younger that I don't really remember] and the liturgy seems to be entirely a cappella. Is this the case throughout Orthodoxy?

2] If the Orthodox do use musical accompaniment, is there a CoWo movement? [Note, I despise CoWo].

3] Why do you the Orthodox make the sign of the cross different from most Western Christians [using the left hand and crossing from right to left]?

4] I've heard the Orthodox don't believe in original sin. How then do they explain the need for grace?

5] What is theosis?

6] Who are the Old Believers? What are the differences in regards to mainstream Russian Orthodoxy? Are the Old Believers still Orthodox?

7] Is Eastern Orthodoxy in communion with the other Orthodox churches?

8] Is Greek Orthodoxy a different Orthodoxy than say, Russian, Ukrainian, or Romanian?

9] What is Church Slavonic?

10] Do the Greek Orthodox worship in Koine?

11] Why do the Orthodox have Icons? Why do the Orthodox not have statues?

12] Do the Orthodox pray to the saints?

13] Do the Orthodox believe in the Real Presence?

14] Do the Orthodox re-baptize adult converts from Protestant denominations? Do they sprinkle? Do they dunk?

15] I know about Pastors, Elders, and Presbyters. What are the differences between Deacons, Archdeacons, Priests, Archpriests, Bishops, Archbishops, and Patriarchs?

16] Do the Russian Orthodox allow non-Orthodox to visit their services?
​

If I have more questions I'll post them as I think them.

(5) What is theosis?
Hi my dear friend! An answer about Theosis:
ON DIVINIZATION – ON THEOSIS – ST PATRICK OF IRELAND (MARCH 17, +461)

Have a nice day!!!