Questions for Adventists

[BobRyan]

Is it an SDA teaching that only the Ten Commandments are permanent Commandments out of the entire Old Testament?

Nope.

We affirm a number of commands that are not ceremonial

Lev 19:18 Love your neighbor as yourself
Deut 6:5 Love God with all your heart
...

 

[BobRyan]

No, that isn't my claim. I do believe that Jesus fulfilled the entire law.

Does that include "do not take God's name in vain" in our POV?

Can you find a place on their website where it talks about other Commandments being permanent?

Given that you claim to struggle to accept the Ten Commandments as the Commandments of God - it appears you already have enough on your plate. I would not want to overload it.

 

[The Liturgist]

I confess that God the Son as God - has no beginning and no end. And this is true of each person of the Godhead. All 3 of them.
I confess you have free will and can believe as you wish.

That the three persons are coeternal is the doctrine of the Nicene Creed. It also teaches us that the Son is begotten, not made, and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, both doctrines being scriptural, and neither contradicting the principal of coeternality, that is to say, having a beginning or end, which are temporal events. As Metropolitan Kallistos Ware said, the Trinity is an eternal union of eternal love between the three persons of the Godhead, who are nonetheless one God by virtue of sharing one divine essence, which is understood to be the essence of the Father, of which the Son is begotten, eternally, since there never was a time when the Son was not, according to Nicaea, and from which proceeds the Holy Spirit, eternally, for like the Father and the Son the Holy Spirit is without beginning and without end.

How does your view agree or disagree with that expressed in the Nicene Creed?

 

[The Liturgist]

No. However, I believe the OP likes to discuss a broad range of topics, so I don't think that will be an issue

Indeed, it is always a pleasure when people take my threads in a new direction. As I see it the OP represents a beginning, and not an end.

 

[The Liturgist]

Given that you claim to struggle to accept the Ten Commandments as the Commandments of God - it appears you already have enough on your plate. I would not want to overload it.

Forgive me, but I never saw @Leaf473 make such a claim, and I would also be curious if a statement such as he described is on the SDA website or in official materials, because your previous post had the effect of suggesting that the SDA also regards as binding other parts of the Law which are clearly not applied to Gentiles by the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

on Christology, SDA's were split in the early days over Christology, some of the early pioneers like James White were semi-Arian. but that has largely been done away with after the death of EGW in 1915. It re surfaces every now and then, I am speaking from a North American perspective, because of the writing of the early pioneers and those who try to keep that branch alive. That would be the Traditionalist/Historic Branch. The conservative and Evangelical branches are orthodox on the issue.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

1. Please compare your denomination’s Christology with that of the Council of Chalcedon and the Council of Ephesus.

2. Do you agree that Jesus Christ is and has been since His conception by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary fully God and fully Man, without change, confusion, separation or division?

3. What did Ellen G. White have to say about St. Mary?

4. Do Adventists still send their Middle-school aged children to Academy?

high school age children

5. What pressures exist on Adventists, if any, who choose not to send their children to Academy?

you are not considered fully adventist if you don't at least go to the SDA schools. There is a lot of pressure you are not fully accepted.

6. What is the basis for Academy, e.g. why does it exist and what purpose does it serve?

it is to make people Adventist. protect them from the influences of the world.

7. Is Academy, like Adventist elementary schools, open to non-Adventists?

yes.

8. If it is wrong to worship on Sunday, why is it that some SDA parishes lease their churches out to other denominations on Sunday? For example, in Ventura, CA, the Syriac Orthodox Church and a Continuing Anglican Church both use the Adventist church.

it is not wrong to have a service on sunday. it is wrong to not worship on Sabbath. It will become wrong when Sunday observence is forced on people and used to misrepresent God. We are beginning to see that happening.

 

[Leaf473]

BobRyan said:

Dies Domini admits that all TEN of the Ten commandments still apply to all mankind...

When you say "admit" it sounds like they are reluctant to do this, but concede under pressure. I don't think that's the case.

They affirm a bent-Ten - but at least they get the "Bible detail" that the TEN remain for all mankind.

Yes, they agree that the 10 remain for all mankind. But probably in the same way that the priesthood ordained in the wilderness carries forward in the priesthood today.

Say, @The Liturgist, do the Orthodox have a similar view, of the priesthood or other things from the law of Moses carrying forward into the New Covenant, but in altered form?

You seem to want to point out that we agree on certain basics but not on every single detail... repeatedly

Well, I think it's clear that the large number of things that you disagree about regarding the Sabbath are significant.

It's kind of like saying that I admit that Ellen White is right about these being the last days. Well, sure! But our views about the nature of those last days and what's going on are probably very different

 

[Leaf473]

They affirm a bent-Ten - but at least they get the "Bible detail" that the TEN remain for all mankind.

You seem to want to point out that we agree on certain basics but not on every single detail... repeatedly

This is what I'm getting at.

I'm sure you've heard of the idea of
The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

That's because only part of the truth can easily be presented in a way that's misleading.

And I think that was a danger in leaving the quote from Dies Domini in its partial state. Technically true, but only part of the truth. And probably misleading in that state.

Bible Gateway passage: Proverbs 18:17 - New American Standard Bible

The first to plead his case seems right, Until another comes and examines him.

www.biblegateway.com

To say:
Pope John Paul II affirms that the Ten Commandments remain today

gives a very different impression than:
Pope John Paul II affirms that an altered form of the Ten Commandments remains today

 

[Leaf473]

Nope.

We affirm a number of commands that are not ceremonial

Lev 19:18 Love your neighbor as yourself
Deut 6:5 Love God with all your heart
...

Thanks for the Bible verses

Is there a place on the official website where this is confirmed?

Home

Seventh-day Adventists are devoted to helping people understand the Bible to find freedom, healing, and hope in Jesus.

www.adventist.org

 

[Leaf473]

Does that include "do not take God's name in vain" in our POV?

Yes, that law is fulfilled as well.

Given that you claim to struggle to accept the Ten Commandments as the Commandments of God...

Not true.

- it appears you already have enough on your plate. I would not want to overload it.

It's a discussion forum where we are discussing SDA beliefs especially.

I've heard conflicting views from different SDA's regarding Commandments in addition to the 10. If you want to discuss that, great! If you don't, that's fine

 

[The Liturgist]

Say, @The Liturgist, do the Orthodox have a similar view, of the priesthood or other things from the law of Moses carrying forward into the New Covenant, but in altered form?

For the most those things in the Old Testament are typological prophecies concerning our Lord, based on Luke 24 and the Pauline Epistles. Also the Law of Moses never applied to those not of Hebrew birth, who instead were covered by the Noachide Laws, which we see reflected in the revised procedures for receiving gentiles in Acts 15.

However to provide the most accurate answer, I will need to look this up in Orthodox Dogmatic Theology and other texts, and thus I will get back to you, as I don’t want to misrepresent the Orthodox Church.

 

[BobRyan]

No, that isn't my claim. I do believe that Jesus fulfilled the entire law.

Does that include "do not take God's name in vain" in our POV

Yes, that law is fulfilled as well.

Jesus perfectly complied with all the Law of God - as everyone admits.

But do you use "fulfill" to mean "delete and ignore from now on"??

Is that how you view "Do not take God's name in vain" and "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy"??

 

[BobRyan]

Is it an SDA teaching that only the Ten Commandments are permanent Commandments out of the entire Old Testament?

Nope.

We affirm a number of commands that are not ceremonial

Lev 19:18 Love your neighbor as yourself
Deut 6:5 Love God with all your heart
...

Thanks for the Bible verses

Glad to help --

Do you still claim to reject the commandments of God as we find them in scripture when it comes to the TEN - saying they don't apply to you as we find them in scripture??

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Dies Domini admits that all TEN of the Ten commandments still apply to all mankind...

But not in the form they are written.

They affirm a bent-Ten - but at least they get the "Bible detail" that the TEN remain for all mankind.

You seem to want to point out that we agree on certain basics but not on every single detail... repeatedly

(and of course I keep agreeing that we agree on certain basics but not on all details) No need to keep circling back on that over and over again

This is what I'm getting at.

I'm sure you've heard of the idea of
The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

I am sure you have heard of Adventists and Baptists agreeing on believer's baptism and yet not agreeing on OSAS - while by contrast a Methodist would affirm sprinkling of infants.

This just is not that hard.

That's because only part of the truth can easily be presented in a way that's misleading.

I see you in that role at times - but it does not need to be that way.
Sticking with the obvious - a lot of things that you claim are foggy - are in fact very clear.

And I think that was a danger in leaving the quote from Dies Domini in its partial state. Technically true, but only part of the truth. And probably misleading in that state.

What is misleading in a quote of a document where it affirms the very detail I am pointing to on the very point where you object???

It appears you are singling out the exact PART of the discussion where there is such vast agreement in your arguments as if "we simply should not notice". Then you seem take no care at all to go for that part where the debate actually exists across many Christian groups when you make your own objections to "The TEN" and "The Sabbath" - because your version seems to be a deleted Sabbath and a TEN that is nailed to the cross. Something none of the others in that list are doing

 

[BobRyan]

That would be the Traditionalist/Historic Branch. The conservative and Evangelical branches are orthodox on the issue.

The Adventist denomination meets once every 5 years to determine affirm/state the official belief statement for the entire denomination and recognizes no other Seventh-day Adventist denomination but that one.

This is a world wide church consisting of over 20 million members.

Not that every single person affirms the exact same thing - but in terms of the larger view - the entire denomination does have a name, a presence and an official statement of beliefs.

"some" will call that statement of beliefs "A branch" of the Seventh-day Adventist church but you will find nothing at all in the official organization documents, belief statements etc that recognizes any other denomination, branch, group as "also being the Seventh-day Adventist denomination" --- yet having a different statement of beliefs.

 

[BobRyan]

Forgive me, but I never saw @Leaf473 make such a claim, and I would also be curious if a statement such as he described is on the SDA website or in official materials, because your previous post had the effect of suggesting that the SDA also regards as binding other parts of the Law which are clearly not applied to Gentiles by the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.

The Adventist denomination does not hold to any ceremonial laws in the Bible that are not applicable to gentiles. We view the animal sacrifices and ceremonies for them ended at the cross as per Heb 10:4-15.

but we do not limit the Law of God to "just the Ten Commandments" as was shown in the case of Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5

 

[tall73]

The thing I'm really interested in talking about here is the laws about clean/unclean and tithing. I have met someone who claims to be SDA who says that it's not an official belief of the SDA Church that those are Commandments, more like recommendations. I looked on the official website and couldn't find anything about food and tithing laws being Commandments. Is it there and I missed it? Thanks!

You might want to save this document. It is the fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church. Each belief statement has Scriptures following that are meant to support the statements.

https://www.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/ADV-28Beliefs2020.pdf

21 Stewardship
We are God’s stewards, entrusted by Him with time and opportunities, abilities and possessions, and the blessings of the earth and its resources. We are responsible to Him for their proper use. We acknowledge God’s ownership by faithful service to Him and our fellow human beings, and by returning tithe and giving offerings for the proclamation of His gospel and the support and growth of His church. Stewardship is a privilege given to us by God for nurture in love and the victory over selfishness and covetousness. Stewards rejoice in the blessings that come to others as a result of their faithfulness. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:15; 1 Chron. 29:14; Haggai 1:3-11; Mal. 3:8-12; Matt. 23:23; Rom. 15:26, 27; 1 Cor. 9:9-14; 2 Cor. 8:1-15; 9:7.)

22 Christian Behavior
We are called to be a godly people who think, feel, and act in harmony with biblical principles in all aspects of personal and social life. For the Spirit to recreate in us the character of our Lord we involve ourselves only in those things that will produce Christlike purity, health, and joy in our lives. This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty. While recognizing cultural differences, our dress is to be simple, modest, and neat, befitting those whose true beauty does not consist of outward adornment but in the imperishable ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit. It also means that because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, we are to care for them intelligently. Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. Since alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness. (Gen. 7:2; Exod. 20:15; Lev. 11:1-47; Ps. 106:3; Rom. 12:1, 2; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31; 2 Cor. 6:14-7:1; 10:5; Eph. 5:1-21; Phil. 2:4; 4:8; 1 Tim. 2:9, 10; Titus 2:11, 12; 1 Peter 3:1-4; 1 John 2:6; 3 John 2.)

 

[tall73]

What We Believe

Official online home of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, a Christian denomination devoted to helping people understand the Bible & find freedom, healing & hope in Jesus.

www.adventist.org

This link also references the fundamental beliefs but links to additional information for each one.

From the Stewardship link:

What Adventists Believe About Biblical Stewardship

Does the Bible have anything to say about how you handle money? Adventist stewardship is rooted in biblical principles.

www.adventist.org

Tithe is not the same as offering. Tithes are the first ten percent of our income. Tithe actually means “tenth.” The Bible also tells us we should return God’s tithe to Him first, before we do anything else with our money (Proverbs 3:9).

Offering is anything you choose to give beyond your tithe. God’s people have practiced tithing since Genesis (see Genesis 14:18-20 and 28:22). But Moses reintroduces Israel to tithing as law in Leviticus 27:30-34.

God’s tithing law serves many purposes:

• Tithe was designed to support the priesthood. Today, that means pastors. “Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple…? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel” (1 Corinthians 9:13-14)
• Tithe supports the maintenance of the temple, or church grounds (Haggai 1:3-11).
• Tithing supports ministry (Deuteronomy 14:28–29).
• Tithing is a form of worship. It shows God we trust Him (not money) to provide for us (Malachi 3:8-12).
• God promises to bless us for giving. Offerings are a way we thank God for our blessings. (Deuteronomy 15:10; Proverbs 11:25; Proverbs 3:9-10).
• Tithing, as part of stewardship, builds character.

 

[tall73]

If you want a 14 page history of the development of the Adventist doctrine regarding unclean foods you can read this from the Ellen White Estate:

https://media4.egwwritings.org/pdf/en_DATM.pdf

A very small selection that briefly summarizes the current view:

The dietary distinction between clean and unclean meats, based
on Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14, is generally understood and
accepted among Adventists today. Unlike the ceremonial laws of
the Old Testament, which pointed to Christ, or the civil laws, which
governed the theocracy, these health laws were based on natural law
and thus not merely applicable to one age and time.



------------

You will note that they see the unclean food laws as a "natural" law, rather than ceremonial.