Questions for Adventists

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

We believe in One God - in three persons. Co-eternal, co-equal in terms of their ontology, essence, being. fully God. Neither of them derives life from the other.

One God Deut 6:4
in Three Persons Matt 28:19

This is an unexpected problem

Glad to help point out our sola-scriptura position

Are you saying that Adventists deny that Jesus Christ was begotten of the Father

Jesus Christ did not exist before the incarnation. God the Son did however, He was incarnated as Jesus Christ at a point in time.

Anything else I can help you with?

begotten of the Father before all ages

And slain from the foundations of the world.

You are conflating the attributes of God with a physical event (the incarnation) that happened at a point in time.

Adventists deny the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father?

Both the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ were sent from the Father.

That is not a statement about the origin of either God the Son or God the Holy Spirit ... it is a statement about the mission that they have for humanity.

You are conflating two entirely different things.

 

[The Liturgist]

BobRyan said:

We believe in One God - in three persons. Co-eternal, co-equal in terms of their ontology, essence, being. fully God. Neither of them derives life from the other.

One God Deut 6:4
in Three Persons Matt 28:19

Glad to help point out our sola-scriptura position

Jesus Christ did not exist before the incarnation. God the Son did however, He was incarnated as Jesus Christ at a point in time.

Anything else I can help you with?

And slain from the foundations of the world.

You are conflating the attributes of God with a physical event (the incarnation) that happened at a point in time.

Both the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ were sent from the Father.

That is not a statement about the origin of either God the Son or God the Holy Spirit ... it is a statement about the mission that they have for humanity.

You are conflating two entirely different things.

So you deny that the God the Son was begotten of the Father before all ages and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father?

 

[BobRyan]

Here's the full sentence, for anyone who's interested
13. The Sabbath precept, which in the first Covenant prepares for the Sunday of the new and eternal Covenant, is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan.

Dies Domini (May 31, 1998) | John Paul II

www.vatican.va

Here is the full context of my quote showing why I focus in that post - on points of agreement rather than "just focus on differences"

After pointing to our differences when it comes to the Catholic position of editing one of the Ten Commandments... I then point to areas where we agree on some things.

The above - does not mean we object to all teachings found in the Catholic Church -

For example we find a lot of agreement on this part --

=========================

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.


CCC -- Catholic Catechism

2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; 28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

certain Bible details are so glaringly obvious even the Catechism gets this part right.

Richard.20.12 said:
Who cares what some person wrote?

the point above is to show that although we have differences with the Catholic Church -- it is still the case that we do not DIFFER on ALL points that they make.

 

[BobRyan]

So you deny that the God the Son

God the Son God - and by definition (as even you admit) He had NO beginning -- He is from eternity past.. no origin at all.

The Liturgist said:
, there never being a time when the Son did not exist

True of all eternal beings (of which there is only God) - they have no beginning, nor origin, no source - they were always there

"they" being the three Persons of Matt 28:19 in the ONE God of Deut 6:5

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, they focus more on Sin instead of Christ.

For those only interested in ad hominem I suppose that kind of post is to be expected.

 

[Leaf473]

Who cares what some person wrote? What's important is what God commands. And the Bible is very clear on that. The Sabbath is referred to from Genesis to Revelation. Who cares what the Vatican says? It's highly likely Peter didn't even go to Rome! How's that for irony!?

I would hope that the person that quoted it with the ellipsis cares

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan.

And Catholics care a great deal what their pastor says.

Bible Gateway passage: Titus 1:5 - New American Standard Bible

Qualifications of Elders - For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,

www.biblegateway.com

As I understand it, Catholics believe this system continues up to this day.

 

[Leaf473]

You have it backwards. The focus is obeying Him, through faith which is the opposite of sin.

Well, obeying what they believe he has commanded, though that differs from what much of the church believes.

But I'm glad to see you here in the denomination specific section

The thing I'm really interested in talking about here is the laws about clean/unclean and tithing. I have met someone who claims to be SDA who says that it's not an official belief of the SDA Church that those are Commandments, more like recommendations. I looked on the official website and couldn't find anything about food and tithing laws being Commandments. Is it there and I missed it? Thanks!

 

[Leaf473]

...a denomination that it appears Ellen G. White was totally unaware of, for significant parts of The Great Controversy fail to make logical sense when one considers the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches, and the Church of the East, three denominations all of which operated completely outside Roman control...

Very interesting, that White seems unaware of those communities of the Church.

 

[Leaf473]

Here is the full context of my quote showing why I focus in that post - on points of agreement rather than "just focus on differences"

After pointing to our differences when it comes to the Catholic position of editing one of the Ten Commandments... I then point to areas where we agree on some things.

certain Bible details are so glaringly obvious even the Catechism gets this part right.

the point above is to show that although we have differences with the Catholic Church -- it is still the case that we do not DIFFER on ALL points that they make.

It's true you don't differ on everything, but when it comes to the Sabbath, Dies Domini is connecting it to the Sunday of the New Covenant.

"1. The Lord's Day — as Sunday was called from Apostolic times(1) — has always been accorded special attention in the history of the Church because of its close connection with the very core of the Christian mystery."

Dies Domini (May 31, 1998) | John Paul II

www.vatican.va

 

[The Liturgist]

God the Son God - and by definition (as even you admit) He had NO beginning -- He is from eternity past.. no origin at all.

‘

I confess that He was begotten of the Father before all ages, begotten not made - as the Nicene Creed says.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Well, obeying what they believe he has commanded, though that differs from what much of the church believes.

But I'm glad to see you here in the denomination specific section

The thing I'm really interested in talking about here is the laws about clean/unclean and tithing. I have met someone who claims to be SDA who says that it's not an official belief of the SDA Church that those are Commandments, more like recommendations. I looked on the official website and couldn't find anything about food and tithing laws being Commandments. Is it there and I missed it? Thanks!

Hi Leaf, nice to see you too.

 

[pasifika]

You have it backwards. The focus is obeying Him, through faith which is the opposite of sin.

Yes obeying by believing

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf, nice to see you too.

Thanks!

Did you want to talk about whether laws about clean/unclean and tithing are recognized as Commandments by the SDA Church, or that they are more like recommendations?

 

[BobRyan]

‘

I confess that He was begotten of the Father before all ages, begotten not made - as the Nicene Creed says.

I confess that God the Son as God - has no beginning and no end. And this is true of each person of the Godhead. All 3 of them.
I confess you have free will and can believe as you wish.

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks!

Did you want to talk about whether laws about clean/unclean and tithing are recognized as Commandments by the SDA Church, or that they are more like recommendations?

Do you see that topic in the OP some place?
Is it your claim that certain parts of the Bible are to be deleted?
maybe you should start a thread on that.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes obeying by believing

1 John 2:3-6 talks about that idea

 

[BobRyan]

It's true you don't differ on everything, but when it comes to the Sabbath, Dies Domini is connecting it to the Sunday

Dies Domini admits that all TEN of the Ten commandments still apply to all mankind and that the Sabbath is one of those TEN

They get that part right.

as you admit to me in your statement above -- "It's true you don't differ on everything"

 

[Leaf473]

Do you see that topic in the OP some place?

No. However, I believe the OP likes to discuss a broad range of topics, so I don't think that will be an issue

Is it your claim that certain parts of the Bible are to be deleted?
maybe you should start a thread on that.

No, that isn't my claim. I do believe that Jesus fulfilled the entire law.

Is it an SDA teaching that only the Ten Commandments are permanent Commandments out of the entire Old Testament? Can you find a place on their website where it talks about other Commandments being permanent?

 

[Leaf473]

Dies Domini admits that all TEN of the Ten commandments still apply to all mankind...

But not in the form they are written.

...and that the Sabbath is one of those TEN

They get that part right.

as you admit to me in your statement above -- "It's true you don't differ on everything"

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Dies Domini admits that all TEN of the Ten commandments still apply to all mankind...

But not in the form they are written.

They affirm a bent-Ten - but at least they get the "Bible detail" that the TEN remain for all mankind.

You seem to want to point out that we agree on certain basics but not on every single detail... repeatedly