Questions for Adventists

[The Liturgist]

Which is what I agree with.

Having no beginning points us to a different definition for the term begotten.

It appears we are close to consensus here, since you agree with the Nicene Creed.

The term begotten obviously does not refer to an event in time, because the principle of the Nicene Fathers was to declare, contra Arius, that there never was a time when the Son was not. At the same time, the Nicene Creed clearly states that He is begotten of the Father before all worlds, begotten, not made, because in the Bible He is also referred to as the only begotten Son of God, and a major contention of Arius was that he was created. This was in my opinion stupid as well as heretical, since the act of begetting someone is not the same as creating something.

 

[The Liturgist]

I thought these questions were for Adventists, seems a lot of ex Adventists are answering, which is not the same.

If a former Adventist or a member of the SDA who is pushing for reform answers the questions, provided their answers are accurate, that works for me. For that matter if someone intimately familiar with Adventist doctrine who is not themselves an Adventist but has, for example, academic credentials having studied them were to answer, this would also be satisfactory from my perspective.

However if you have observed an answer to one of my questions, or anyone else’s questions, that you believe is incorrect, please let us know.

I have learned a lot in this thread, much of it positive, for example concerning @BobRyan ‘s intense focus on following the Nicene Creed, and the reform efforts of evangelist Adventists like @Adventist Heretic.

 

[The Liturgist]

Sure, I could see why there would be a question in your mind.

But an ex-Adventist could easily chime in and give their views on how they would have answered when they were. Or what they've learned since then.

I feel drawn to witness to latter-day saints. I've been watching a lot of YouTube videos, and oftentimes the most interesting information comes from the ex-lds.

Anyways, several Adventists have answered questions here (or has it been only two?). I don't think the title or the OP was intended to limit who could answer

Indeed not; I would have made it clear had I desired a restriction. That being said if a non-Adventist were to just make up some random nonsense and post it in here claiming falsely to be an adventist, that would be highly annoying.

 

[The Liturgist]

ON the issue of abortion the church is pro-choice. A decision made by the leadership of the church in 1984 with out the consent of the membership.

@BobRyan , are you able to validate this, and if this is the case, are any efforts being made to correct this? Since both you and I are pro-life, as are every Adventist I’ve met, I find it surprising that the organizational leadership apparently would have made such a decision in the 1980s quietly and behind everyone’s back as I think @Adventist Heretic is saying. @Adventist Heretic , have individual SDA churches to your knowledge ever participated in and/or gotten in trouble for participating in pro-life events?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

@BobRyan , are you able to validate this, and if this is the case, are any efforts being made to correct this? Since both you and I are pro-life, as are every Adventist I’ve met, I find it surprising that the organizational leadership apparently would have made such a decision in the 1980s quietly and behind everyone’s back as I think @Adventist Heretic is saying.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="The Liturgist, post: 77306203, member: 424341"]
@Adventist Heretic , have individual SDA churches to your knowledge ever participated in and/or gotten in trouble for participating in pro-life events?

not that i am aware of. SDA's were suprised to find out the church was pro-choice. Since most of the members are pro=life.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Because you tell me

oh you've let out more then you realize. like you are in Northern Ca. you go to Batchlors church, or at one time you did. your father is a pastor. so you are an PK and you have the best seat in the house and get the best of everything. your experiance is not typical. you are a child of privileged and it shows by your defensiveness about criticism towards the organization you are over protective. and you are either naive or stright up dishonest. you're always picking fights. like this one.

what do you think about what I have gathered now.

I guess we have different definitions of knowing someone. Repeating two sentences someone has revealed about themselves on the internet is far from knowing someone. Most of what you described is something that is made up and not actual reality. I consider people I know to be people I have personal relationships with and even those people I would still not try to judge their heart, because only God knows that.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

I guess we have different definitions of knowing someone. Repeating two sentences someone has revealed about themselves on the internet is far from knowing someone. Most of what you described is something that is made up and not actual reality. I consider people I know to be people I have personal relationships with and even those people I would still not try to judge their heart, because only God knows that.

what is your point??? you are just arguing. try responding to the OP instead of complaing and criticizing other members. really that is all you do. i has seen you once or twice actually respond to post. Where you actually put something down that advances the discussion. Add something instead of complaining. why don't you answer Leaf's questions.

 

[JSRG]

ON the issue of abortion the church is pro-choice. A decision made by the leadership of the church in 1984 with out the consent of the membership.

According to their website:

Statement on the Biblical View of Unborn Life and Its Implications for Abortion - General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists

Statement on the Biblical View of Unborn Life and Its Implications for Abortion

www.adventist.org

Most pertinently:

"The Seventh-day Adventist Church considers abortion out of harmony with God’s plan for human life. It affects the unborn, the mother, the father, immediate and extended family members, the church family, and society with long-term consequences for all."

This was, according to the site, approved by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Executive Committee in 2019. This seems to take a decidedly pro-life stance. Now, maybe you mean that in the past it took a more pro-choice position but then reversed it (this is what the Southern Baptist Convention did), but this was the most recent thing I could find offhand that seems an official statement, and it seems pro-life.

As far a euthanasia goes. I am not sure they have a postion? I have never heard of it.

Searching on the site, this what I could find:

A Statement of Consensus on Care for the Dying - Adventist.org

A statement from the General Conference regarding consensus on care for the dying.

www.adventist.org

no, the SDA Church dose not oppose birth control.

This seems to be the official statement on birth control:

Is Birth Control a Moral Issue? - Adventist.org

Science today allows for greater control of human fertility - bringing with it moral aspects to be considered. Discover the SDA church's perspective on these issues.

www.adventist.org

I don't know exactly what to say their position on birth control is based on that. It seems to be one of those documents that says a lot without actually saying anything at all. I guess it can be summed up in its statement "Christians who ultimately must make their own personal choices on these issues must be informed in order to make sound decisions based on biblical principles."

 

[Adventist Heretic]

According to their website:

Statement on the Biblical View of Unborn Life and Its Implications for Abortion - General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists

Statement on the Biblical View of Unborn Life and Its Implications for Abortion

www.adventist.org

Most pertinently:

"The Seventh-day Adventist Church considers abortion out of harmony with God’s plan for human life. It affects the unborn, the mother, the father, immediate and extended family members, the church family, and society with long-term consequences for all."

This was, according to the site, approved by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Executive Committee in 2019. This seems to take a decidedly pro-life stance. Now, maybe you mean that in the past it took a more pro-choice position but then reversed it (this is what the Southern Baptist Convention did), but this was the most recent thing I could find offhand that seems an official statement, and it seems pro-life.

I was not aware of this statement. the last time I had a discussion with someone on this topic 2016 so they changed it. wow. That is superising.

Searching on the site, this what I could find:

A Statement of Consensus on Care for the Dying - Adventist.org

A statement from the General Conference regarding consensus on care for the dying.

www.adventist.org

This seems to be the official statement on birth control:

Is Birth Control a Moral Issue? - Adventist.org

Science today allows for greater control of human fertility - bringing with it moral aspects to be considered. Discover the SDA church's perspective on these issues.

www.adventist.org

I don't know exactly what to say their position on birth control is based on that. It seems to be one of those documents that says a lot without actually saying anything at all. I guess it can be summed up in its statement "Christians who ultimately must make their own personal choices on these issues must be informed in order to make sound decisions based on biblical principles."

ted wilson might be good for something after all

 

[Leaf473]

this is un clear please clarify

Well, there's the ten commandments. And I'm pretty sure SDA's consider those commandments that must be followed today. Then there's instructions in Leviticus 11, for example, about clean and unclean foods.

Up until recently, the only SDA's I had interacted with considered those instructions from Leviticus 11 to be commandments just as much as the 10.

But recently, I've met some who say that only the 10 are actual commandments for today, things like food instructions are just strong recommendations.

Or at least, that's my impression.

So which is representing the official SDA position? I looked on the website, and it looks like Leviticus 11 is viewed more as strong recommendations.

Does that make it more clear?

 

[Leaf473]

I have had prophetic revelations myself, about my future, but I don't consider myself a prophet. that is the normal way we are to interact with God.

In SDA theology, is there a difference between being a prophet and having the gift of prophecy?

 

[Leaf473]

According to their website:

Statement on the Biblical View of Unborn Life and Its Implications for Abortion - General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists

Statement on the Biblical View of Unborn Life and Its Implications for Abortion

www.adventist.org

Fascinating! Thanks for posting that.

It has a decidedly pro-life tone, but also contains statements like:
"The Church while not being the conscience of individual believers has the duty to convey the principles and teachings of the Word of God."

Thus a person could read it and agree with everything said there and still believe that in the end, it's up to each individual woman's conscience... A kind of pro-choice stance.

Are similar statements about the individual's conscience made about, say, keeping the Sabbath?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Well, there's the ten commandments. And I'm pretty sure SDA's consider those commandments that must be followed today. Then there's instructions in Leviticus 11, for example, about clean and unclean foods.

Up until recently, the only SDA's I had interacted with considered those instructions from Leviticus 11 to be commandments just as much as the 10.

But recently, I've met some who say that only the 10 are actual commandments for today, things like food instructions are just strong recommendations.

Or at least, that's my impression.

So which is representing the official SDA position? I looked on the website, and it looks like Leviticus 11 is viewed more as strong recommendations.

Does that make it more clear?

It is seen as more of a guideline and a boundary. It's like gravity it is not one of the ten commandments but we really recommend you don't break it. There are really serious consequences. It is the minimum standard to be an Adventist. Remember the ideal is the garden of Eden, a plant-based diet. They don't require that but they do recommend it.
Remember this fits into what adventism is trying to do. Represent God properly. It shows that God cares about his children and says that there is a way to be healthy on this planet and there are things that will kill you here are the rules and the boundaries. You make the choice. When people join adventism they do it voluntarily so they know what they're getting into. It can look like a command when it really is a boundary.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Fascinating! Thanks for posting that.

It has a decidedly pro-life tone, but also contains statements like:
"The Church while not being the conscience of individual believers has the duty to convey the principles and teachings of the Word of God."

Thus a person could read it and agree with everything said there and still believe that in the end, it's up to each individual woman's conscience... A kind of pro-choice stance.

Are similar statements about the individual's conscience made about, say, keeping the Sabbath?

Yes, now you see the face of advertism. That is definitely Adventist double talk. And this was done in an executive committee. No members voted on this. This definitely reflects the split in Adventism.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

In SDA theology, is there a difference between being a prophet and having the gift of prophecy?

Yes, the prophet is in office or a job. The gift of prophecy is a gift, one is personal one is corporate. That's how I describe it. I've had the holy Spirit reveal things to me that are not for the body. It is still the word of the Lord but it's not for everybody benefits it's for my benefit.

 

[Leaf473]

It is seen as more of a guideline and a boundary. It's like gravity it is not one of the ten commandments but we really recommend you don't break it. There are really serious consequences. It is the minimum standard to be an Adventist. Remember the ideal is the garden of Eden, a plant-based diet. They don't require that but they do recommend it.
Remember this fits into what adventism is trying to do. Represent God properly. It shows that God cares about his children and says that there is a way to be healthy on this planet and there are things that will kill you here are the rules and the boundaries. You make the choice. When people join adventism they do it voluntarily so they know what they're getting into. It can look like a command when it really is a boundary.

Thanks for the info

If a person does say the instructions in Leviticus 11 are commandments similar to the 10, are they stepping outside of official SDA doctrine?

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, now you see the face of advertism. That is definitely Adventist double talk. And this was done in an executive committee. No members voted on this. This definitely reflects the split in Adventism.

Now this is interesting

Am I understanding right that the statement below - posting it again just for clarity - was made in something called an executive committee? Not voted on in the, what is it, every 5-year convention?

Statement on the Biblical View of Unborn Life and Its Implications for Abortion - General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists

Statement on the Biblical View of Unborn Life and Its Implications for Abortion

www.adventist.org

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, the prophet is in office or a job. The gift of prophecy is a gift, one is personal one is corporate. That's how I describe it. I've had the holy Spirit reveal things to me that are not for the body. It is still the word of the Lord but it's not for everybody benefits it's for my benefit.

Interesting again! When I asked a different SDA about this, my impression was they were saying that a prophet was just someone with the gift of prophecy, basically the same thing. I'm inclined to believe that what you're describing is probably the official position.

The fundamental beliefs talk about the gift of prophecy being an identifying mark of the remnant Church, I think?

Would what you're describing that you personally have experienced be that gift of prophecy that would count as an identifying mark?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Interesting again! When I asked a different SDA about this, my impression was they were saying that a prophet was just someone with the gift of prophecy, basically the same thing. I'm inclined to believe that what you're describing is probably the official position.

The fundamental beliefs talk about the gift of prophecy being an identifying mark of the remnant Church, I think?

The SDA church's offical view is that EGW was the fulfillment of the office of Prophet and the Spirit of Prophecy. She is referred to as the Spirit of Prophecy. both in books and in person.

Would what you're describing that you personally have experienced be that gift of prophecy that would count as an identifying mark?

I think it is more general. the gifts were more common in apostolic times and that is what I think they are referring to. I am watching a number of people right now who claim to have a word from the Lord. There are a few that I think actually do but most don't .

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Thanks for the info

If a person does say the instructions in Leviticus 11 are commandments similar to the 10, are they stepping outside of official SDA doctrine?

you're looking at it the wrong way. you must look at it from the Father's point of view. God is looking out for his children by telling them what will hurt them. He is setting boundries of health and well being. What Father would not look out for the well being of His Children. It is God's protection and benefit. Why would you want to be unhealthy? That is how we look at it. It is odd for us to hear evanglicals talk about the "dietary laws" as restrictions because that is not how we look at them. They see it as a burden we see it as a blessing. Thank-you Lord for showing us what will hurt us and what will make us miserable. Thank you for drawing a boundry and a line. that was really helpful. When I hear christian get angry about us following the health guidlines. I think what God do they server that does not care about their health. When they say we are trying to earn our way to heaven, I think what lunacy, God dosn't just want to get us into heaven, he wants a good life for us now. God's Health Care plan is a way we experiance the Goodness of God.