Question

[Freodin]

The contradiction of what I said is obvious. Anyone can see it.
But it is not for me. The apparently illogical theology to you is actually very logical to me.
The Trinity is very very logical. That is why I believe in it. Human can not invent such an apparently illogical, but actually very logical theology.

Sorry to confused you.

I don't know if you read my recent conversation with -57.

Very logical... at least for me, apparently illogical... at least to -57. And "invented" by a human.

 

[juvenissun]

I don't know if you read my recent conversation with -57.

Very logical... at least for me, apparently illogical... at least to -57. And "invented" by a human.

Here was your explanation: It did not exist. People put it together and are still arguing about it.
Why is the theology of Trinity logical and reasonable? I don't believe you can explain that.

 

[Freodin]

Here was your explanation: It did not exist. People put it together and are still arguing about it.
Why is the theology of Trinity logical and reasonable? I don't believe you can explain that.

The theology of the trinity is not logical or reasonable. The way the theology of the trinity was established was logical and reasonable.

And I find it interesting that you set me a "challenge", got a direct response... and then simply ignored it.

 

[popsthebuilder]

So, who convinced me that God doesn't exist? That would be already two things, wouldn't it?

There are only two forces that oppose one another, and differ in every way.

Those are the light of GOD, and the darkness and absence without. They are literally opposite in every way.

 

[popsthebuilder]

And, to come back to where it all started: here is another of the nonsense things that are, for me, evidence that Christians get it wrong.

On the one side, we have a Christian who tells me what I really think and know and believe, and how I act... BECAUSE GOD TOLD HIM SO IN HIS HOLY WORD!

On the other side we have... me. The person who, of all people in the world, knows best what I think... who in many many cases is the only person who knows what I think and believe.

I am not an expert in biology or physics or chemistry. Not even in history, language, philosphy or mathematics.

But I am the world leading expert on ThoughtsOfFreodin.

The thing is; thoughts themselves can be misleading and deceiving to self. You can do things out of greed on some level, and because of society and upbringing, completely justify any greedy, selfish, negative thing. If you can be honest with yourself and remove personal gain out of your decision making process consciously, then you can start to see deception within self. If just in retrospect initially.

Peace

 

[popsthebuilder]

Read my last post. You claim that I deny the truth. You basically call me a liar... and because your faith depends on it, there is nothing I can tell you to convince you.

But I know the truth. I know that what you say is false.

I might not claim to know what you say about your God is false. I might not claim to know what you say about your "avenues of proof" is false. I don't believe it, that's all... and I can give reasons for that.

But in this case, I know the truth. I know that what you say is false. And if that is false, if what your book, your faith, says about me is false... I have no reason to trust it in any other regard.

Woe... Woe, hold on. Please.

The book doesn't say anything like that. You are not damned but blessed in ignorance. You are equivalent to innocent. When you know God to be true, you will be expected to be true as well.

Peace.

Be calm and hopeful in any secret inquiry you might have. Do not rely on the words of hypocrites, or men. Have hope, remove pride, read core scripture, not interpretations of man any more deviated.

Peace
Humbly
Please don't take offence.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I already hinted at it in post #235.

If we try to understand "nothing", by attempting to define or explain it, and then remove all the elements in the definition or explanation, finally remove even the means of defining or explaining, the rules by which we do so... we would arrive at what I would say is the real "nothing".

But it is no longer describable. You cannot make any true statements about it. You cannot make any false statements about it either.

As "nothing" is (as we have seen) much too loaded with certain connotations that do not apply to this state, I rather like to call it "primal chaos". (No one bothers with ancient greek mythology any more, so this term is kind of free... and I think it is a fitting name.)

Interestingly, this "primal chaos" shares a lot of, well, "properties" with some philosophical concepts of God. It is infinite... there are no boundaries or limits. It is timeless... there is no time. It is one... there are no distinctions.

And it is definitly beyond logic or reason... "nothing" means no rules or reasons as well.


(Ok, the linking went horrible wrong with that post. And the new forum system doesn't allow me to change it. Sorry for that. Link is valid though, even if the hypertext got too long.)

Freodin?

What are you promoting? Exactly?

Thanks peace, not absence, not chaos which is not synonymous with the absence there of, simply peace, harmony. Nothing is without anything at all. It is equivalent to 0. Chaos is potential. Nothing is lack there of.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Misunderstanding of my concept of "nothing". That's why I personally don't use that term.

And I can understand why you have difficulties to 'understand' this concept. I would never claim that I do. It is not understandable. It is beyond reason or logic. No, it is without reason or logic.

You say "nothing would not contain no order or chaos". I say, you are right. And you are wrong. What tells you that you cannot be both? Logic! Reason!

But logic and reason does not exist in "nothing". The rules do not apply. No rule does. This "nothing" is also "everything".


Also, it does not "contain" chaos. It is chaos. Not describable.

I do not compel you to believe that, accept that, bow to that... it is irrelevant. It is irrational, illogical. It is derived from reason and logic, but arrived at a point where both fails.

And it is an idea that a human mind came up with.

Bs

You are misconstrueing the line between nothing,/////
And chaos.

One is something.

The other is not, literally.

Confusion ?

 

[popsthebuilder]

I do not believe in illogical idea. I do not care what others do.

Again, I emphasize that human will not develop a religious system based on illogical principle. All other religions, except the Christianity, are built upon reasonable bases.

What is unreasonable about actual Christianity as written in the bible? Mind you, that doesn't have anything t do with the acts of man.

 

[popsthebuilder]

So what science do you personally have to throw out for your god beleifs? Semiconductor theory? Germ theory? Evolutionary theory? Stellar nucleosynthesis? Modern theory of mind? Anything else? What do you keep, and why?

Damn good question. Not familiar with most to be honest.

The hypothesis of quantization, evolution, the big bang, time dilation, mathematics.

You can list brief descriptions of the ones you were wondering about in layman terms and I will gladly tell you if I refute them. But I can tell you now that if it is sound, true scientific hypothesis then chances are it goes along with the work of God just right. Have you not heard that science is but a tool to describe the things made observable to us by God's will. We can perceive exactly what he shows and no more.

Peace

 

[MennoSota]

On the topic brought up by the OP, God calls His children to Himself in any manner He so chooses. Remember, God does the adoption, it is not for the orphan to choose.

 

[Freodin]

There are only two forces that oppose one another, and differ in every way.

Those are the light of GOD, and the darkness and absence without. They are literally opposite in every way.

Only two forces, right. Only. Two.

So you are the light of God then, right... and me the absence?

The thing is; thoughts themselves can be misleading and deceiving to self. You can do things out of greed on some level, and because of society and upbringing, completely justify any greedy, selfish, negative thing. If you can be honest with yourself and remove personal gain out of your decision making process consciously, then you can start to see deception within self. If just in retrospect initially.

Peace

And the thing is... only the thoughts of the darkness force can be that way, right? Thus you are extempt from that, right? You cannot be mislead or deceiving yourself, right? Only the "others" can be deceived, right?

Woe... Woe, hold on. Please.

The book doesn't say anything like that. You are not damned but blessed in ignorance. You are equivalent to innocent. When you know God to be true, you will be expected to be true as well.

Peace.

Be calm and hopeful in any secret inquiry you might have. Do not rely on the words of hypocrites, or men. Have hope, remove pride, read core scripture, not interpretations of man any more deviated.

Peace
Humbly
Please don't take offence.

Romans 1, 19-32. Yes, "the book" says exactly that. -57 basically cited it directly.

Freodin?

What are you promoting? Exactly?

Thanks peace, not absence, not chaos which is not synonymous with the absence there of, simply peace, harmony. Nothing is without anything at all. It is equivalent to 0. Chaos is potential. Nothing is lack there of.

I am not "promoting" anything. Take it or leave it. Accept it or discard it. Understand it or ignore it. It doesn't matter... to me or else.
I've tried to explain it several times now... and obviously you do not understand. I feel with you: it is difficult. It goes against everything that you accept as correct.
But as you said: "Nothing is without anything at all." It is also without anything that determines that it is without anything at all.
"Nothing" is the ultimate paradoxon.

Bs

You are misconstrueing the line between nothing,/////
And chaos.

One is something.

The other is not, literally.

Confusion ?

Not confusion. Lack of logic. Something that is very important for our world. Something that we need to have understanding at all.
But without logic... I think you get the idea.

(And BTW, if that Bs at the beginning of this quote means what I think it means, you should work on your no-offense-spiel some more.)

 

[DogmaHunter]

That is your claim at that moment.

No, it's not.

 

[DogmaHunter]

That's not what I said. Its what you MADE me say to make your point.

No, it IS what you said. That IS your premise.

That you then turned around and tried to make an exception for your own argument in a special pleading fallacy, doesn't change anything.

 

[DogmaHunter]

It's not the complete argument...more of an abstract.....

Perhaps, when you try to present an argument, you don't just give half of it.

Otherwise, nobody will understand you.

put out there for you to show me where it is wrong. I'm waiting.

I just explained to you where it is wrong and then you stated "ow, but it's not the full argument".

So, I suggest you give the "full argument".

And then I'll show you where it is wrong.

As it is now, what you gave is shown to be wrong.

 

[juvenissun]

The theology of the trinity is not logical or reasonable. The way the theology of the trinity was established was logical and reasonable.

And I find it interesting that you set me a "challenge", got a direct response... and then simply ignored it.

How could reasonable man establish an unreasonable theology? It does not make sense.

 

[juvenissun]

What is unreasonable about actual Christianity as written in the bible? Mind you, that doesn't have anything t do with the acts of man.

Jesus is a man, and is also the God at the same time.
That is unreasonable. Absolutely unreasonable.

Are you questioning if Jesus is God? That is another issue.
Christians believe so. That is enough for the current issue.

 

[Freodin]

How could reasonable man establish an unreasonable theology? It does not make sense.

Just like he establishes any other unreasonable idea: By ignoring or rationalizing any contradictions, by placing dogma above coherence.

 

[juvenissun]

Just like he establishes any other unreasonable idea: By ignoring or rationalizing any contradictions, by placing dogma above coherence.

Who is "he"?
I am talking about millions of people through hundreds of years. Are you insulting human intelligence? Are you better than them?

 

[Freodin]

Who is "he"?

"Reasonable man"

I am talking about millions of people through hundreds of years. Are you insulting human intelligence? Are you better than them?

Yes, you are talking about them. Talk is cheap.

But millions of people did not come up through hundreds of years with such "theology". Some people do, and they go round telling others what to think, what to believe.. what to accept as the utter truth if they want to stay within the fold!

Just go down on the street, ask people if Jesus is 100% human and 100% God... ask them what that means and where they got the idea. I bet you won't find even a handful who can explain this "actually very logical" theology and aren't just repeating the words that they heard in church.

Literally millions of people went through hundreds of years repeating the words that others told them to repeat, without understanding, without needing to understand.
Lots of other people tried to understand, and left because it didn't make sense to them. Are they all less intelligent? Are you better than them?