Question that is preventing me from investigating Christianity further

alexiscurious · Jul 20, 2014

RDKirk said:
The point is that you are separated from God and always have been.

Is this fair? Unavoidable, inevitable, and a punishable separation from God?

I can't believe any loving and caring supernatural being would detach from their creation before it even existed. I can't deceive myself from thinking how ridiculous this sounds. I have to dedicate my entire life to a God that couldn't spend a second of his life with me?

Lollerskates · Jul 20, 2014

alexiscurious said:
If it was not his intention for two humans to populate the rest of the earth with corruption then why create humanity separately and at different times? Why didn't he just create everyone at once so you could be held accountable for your actions and I could be held accountable for mine?

Honestly, I don't know. For all I know, this entire plan was the best one for everyone - the absolute most fair to show everyone all attributes of Him. I do know that Christ was already designated as the "fail safe" to redeem mankind should we do exactly what has already happened (sin.) So, the net effect is eternal life and perfection even though we have fallen short. I would say count the blessings: even though our parents demoted their status from Son of God to Son of man, and broke Universal law, they still have hope in Christian for themselves, and their progeny. He didn't do to us like He did the angels; they have no salvation plan. And, when you think about it, we are blessed any god, let alone the Most High God didn't delight in our torture, pain, or punishment. We have sinned - all of us, and so He would be within His authority to do so.

I'm tired of everyone saying I'm ignoring my own sin, and to focus on my sin. My own sin was not the cause of my relationship with God being broken. My question revolves around someone else's sin.

I don't think you are ignorant of sin; I just think you have some problematic questions. I have had similar questions: "Why do I have to be punished; I didn't even ask to be born!" Or, "why do I have to be born imperfect because of my Fathers' mistakes?"

Your broken relationship is still a relationship man; count yourself blessed still. It can always be repaired - if human relationships can be made up, certainly a relationship with the Most High that loves you can be repaired and even perfected. I would say if you have something with God, shake your fist respectfully. Nothing wrong with asking questions.

alexiscurious · Jul 20, 2014

Lollerskates said:
Honestly, I don't know. For all I know, this entire plan was the best one for everyone - the absolute most fair to show everyone all attributes of Him. I do know that Christ was already designated as the "fail safe" to redeem mankind should we do exactly what has already happened (sin.) So, the net effect is eternal life and perfection even though we have fallen short. I would say count the blessings: even though our parents demoted their status from Son of God to Son of man, and broke Universal law, they still have hope in Christian for themselves, and their progeny. He didn't do to us like He did the angels; they have no salvation plan. And, when you think about it, we are blessed any god, let alone the Most High God didn't delight in our torture, pain, or punishment. We have sinned - all of us, and so He would be within His authority to do so.

I don't think you are ignorant of sin; I just think you have some problematic questions. I have had similar questions: "Why do I have to be punished; I didn't even ask to be born!" Or, "why do I have to be born imperfect because of my Fathers' mistakes?"

Your broken relationship is still a relationship man; count yourself blessed still. It can always be repaired - if human relationships can be made up, certainly a relationship with the Most High that loves you can be repaired and even perfected. I would say if you have something with God, shake your fist respectfully. Nothing wrong with asking questions.

This broken relationship, that happened before my existence, requires my entire existence to repair. So I should willingly dedicate my entire life to a Creator that wouldn't spend one single second of his life with me?

Is this what you are instructing me to do?

Lollerskates · Jul 20, 2014

alexiscurious said:
This broken relationship, that happened before my existence, requires my entire existence to repair. So I should willingly dedicate my entire life to a Creator that wouldn't spend one single second of his life with me?

Is this what you are instructing me to do?

Let me be frank with you brother. The whole point of your life is to make a choice according to the limited freedom you have. Free will is a lie; no imperfect being has free will, and the Holy ones that do (angels or human) are 100% in sync with the Most High's will. Your will is the choice to make where you want to go after this life. So, I said all that to say l, respectfully, cannot instruct you on your spiritual decisions. But, you have to decide whether you want to spend your entire life devoted to the Most High on faith of His Word. 80 years of devotion for a reward of eternity with the Most High God that loves you immensely may not be a bad deal.

In terms of Him not spending a second on you, that is something that is erroneous. If you believe Christ sacrificed Himself for all of us, then He spent His entire life not only with us, but for us. And, the Most High is always with us in spirit, not necessarily physically in ways we expect to see him. So, while I can't instruct you on what to do, I will ask you to consider and reconsider.

And, just for the record, I became a Christian on my own accord, on my own choice. My parents didn't goad me, or influence me. And, I didn't grow up in the Church. I have

Sketcher · Jul 21, 2014

alexiscurious said:
God is definitely holding Adam/Eve's sinful deeds over my head. Is that not the reason why He detached from you and I before we ever existed? A bit early don't you think?

No, this is incorrect. We do not bear the guilt of Adam and Eve's specific acts of sin. Rather, because they sinned, we contracted original sin from them. That little fire in us aligns our will against God's, and tempts us to commit our own acts of sin constantly.

alexiscurious said:
Is it fair that I have to forfeit my initial relationship with Him because of their careless decision? Why wasn't I given the same opportunity they were?

Relationships are based on mutual consent. Why do you think you have a right to have a relationship with anybody who freely chooses not to have a relationship with you? More to the point, God has reached out and made a means by which a relationship with him can be restored. If you value this so much, why not take it?

alexiscurious said:
So angels are somehow unaffected by the actions of Satan but we are not unaffected by the actions of Adam/Eve? Is there a particular reason for this?

Like I said previously, Satan was only able to get a third of the angels to rebel with him. That's 33% of the angelic race. However, when Adam and Eve sinned, that was 100% of the human race. If only one had sinned, maybe God would have made a replacement and we wouldn't have this problem.

alexiscurious said:
Some said sin carries through DNA and since we were created separately it starts at it's roots. How can someone else's disobedience carry on through DNA?

Original sin is spiritual, not physical. The Bible doesn't mention DNA as the transmitting agent of original sin, so I'm not going to preach that it's literally within our DNA.

alexiscurious said:
It was their decision, shouldn't their disobedience stay with them? What's the point of free will and the accountability of one's actions if my entire life was essentially in the hands of two idiots who were not content in a paradise with everything?

I don't believe I should by default be eternally damned for something that is inevitable, unavoidable, and happened before I ever existed. How am I supposed to convince myself to reconcile my relationship with a Creator that detached from me before I was ever born?

Yet, look at what you do have the free will to choose:

You have the free will to seek God and follow his plan of reconciliation.
You have the free will to revere him.
You have the free will to love people as you love yourself.

Yet, you seem to be unwilling to do at very least the first two of these, while complaining of having lost what they promise to regain. If you won't take the door that God has opened for you to regain a relationship with him, it does not make sense to me that you are complaining of never having had it. It would be like me complaining that I wasn't born into money while at the same time rejecting a multimillion dollar check. I do not see how this makes sense.

alexiscurious said:
Equally important, how did you convince yourself to do this as well?

Because God cares for me when no one else does, like no one else can. Because Jesus truly was raised from the dead, giving everyone, including (and even) me a chance to be rescued from sin and the evil one.

oi_antz · Jul 21, 2014

alexiscurious said:
My own sin was not the cause of my relationship with God being broken.

What makes you so sure of this?

theophilus777 · Jul 21, 2014

"My own sin was not the cause of my relationship with God being broken."

If I felt that way, that would certainly be the one thing that kept me from investigating Christianity further! Mr OP, please carefully consider if this might possibly be for you as well.

Also, you have repeatedly stated something along the lines of God doesn't want to spend one second of time with you. This is proven false by the Incarnation; when He became a man, and dwelt among sinful, fallen mankind. He even preserved a record of it so we can at least experience some of that through literature. And yet intellectual assent is NOT what Salvation is about. Instead, it is ACTUAL Peace with God, in the here and now. Knowing His Presence, in a way that is real to YOU. He longs for that, far more than any of us do ...

That's the part of the Gospel that totally blows my mind, still: "behold, what manner of Love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God"

I went and preached myself happy

Albion · Jul 21, 2014

alexiscurious said:
Hello Christian Forums,

The question on my mind has been bothering me for a while now. I would appreciate as many replies and thoughts on this as possible.

MY QUESTION:
How was I born into this crooked and corrupt life apart from my creator? Whenever I ask myself this question I am directed to Romans 5:12. This verse takes me to the story of the first two humans in existence. I realize their stupidity, but why should their decision affect me in any way? Was I consulted before they picked a fruit off a tree? Was I secretly involved in their defiance and disobedience? How in the world am I supposed to accept the punishment for a decision that was not mine to make? How did you and I get tangled up in this mess to begin with?

From what I understand, God originally planned humanity to be perfect and to live with him in harmony forever. How was the life God destined for me and you altered because of a careless decision someone else made? Romans 3:23 says because one man sinned we all fall short of the glory of God. When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?

So why is it I'm sitting here now, in this incomplete state, where I have to reconcile with my creator before the end of my life or else I will be in eternal damnation? Why couldn't I live the blissful and worry-free life God intended for me to have?

Thanks,
Alex

Alex, I think you've done what a lot of other people have done, and that is to see the fall of Adam and Eve in purely spiritual terms. They incurred punishment; why should you? They lost out on God's plan for mankind; why should you pay any of that price?

But if you look at in another way, along with a careful reading of the relevant Bible passages, you would see (I think) that it's more like having to inherit what Adam and Eve changed. We all know that our lives today are partly result of what those who came before us did.

If some natural resources are not longer available or animal species are extinct or there is now the possibility of certain kinds of death that were unknown to mankind centuries ago--it's not a matter of being stuck with those people's standing with God. If the dinosaurs are gone, that's because of earlier events...but you don't have to theologize them in order to understand that.

This is a normal fact of life--that some of what happened with earlier people or natural events forever alter things for those who come later, quite apart from the matter of the judgment.

RDKirk · Jul 21, 2014

alexiscurious said:
Is this fair? Unavoidable, inevitable, and a punishable separation from God?

I can't believe any loving and caring supernatural being would detach from their creation before it even existed. I can't deceive myself from thinking how ridiculous this sounds. I have to dedicate my entire life to a God that couldn't spend a second of his life with me?

If you love someone, set them free. If they come back they're yours; if they don't they never were. -- Richard Bach

God gave you an opt-in option. Would you be happier if it was necessary to opt out instead?

You're saying that you refuse to look into opt-in because you feel it should have been opt-out?

ForJesusChrist · Jul 21, 2014

Why not flip it around and ask God why you ARE here. Why are you so blessed, to be able to see, hear, taste, smell, touch? Why were you not born with illnesses, why are you healthy, why are you blessed to have food and water while there are millions without it? What did you ever do to deserve it? No one ever did anything to deserve the blessings that they have, but God continues to bless us, even though we are corrupt and sinful.

Rather than being upset, realize the blessings you have come to know in your life.

alexiscurious · Jul 21, 2014

RDKirk said:
If you love someone, set them free. If they come back they're yours; if they don't they never were. -- Richard Bach

God gave you an opt-in option. Would you be happier if it was necessary to opt out instead?

You're saying that you refuse to look into opt-in because you feel it should have been opt-out?

Actually it seems more like he gave me no option at all. He saw Adam/Eve and said hey wouldn't it be a great idea if I grouped Alex and RDKirk with them and let the title of the group be called sinners? But wait, they didn't do the one thing to gain admission to that group! They didn't sin! Even though they haven't even been brought into existence yet I'm going to give them a free pass in anyways! Oh how generous I am. I hope they enjoy working hard to fix the relationship that they didn't break.

I know, I know. I play his role spectacularly.

oi_antz · Jul 22, 2014

Alex, could you please explain to me why you are sure it is not your sin that keeps Him away?

RDKirk · Jul 22, 2014

alexiscurious said:
Actually it seems more like he gave me no option at all. He saw Adam/Eve and said hey wouldn't it be a great idea if I grouped Alex and RDKirk with them and let the title of the group be called sinners? But wait, they didn't do the one thing to gain admission to that group! They didn't sin!

No, there is no "group" called sinners.

I used to be active duty military. I loved being in the military. I loved living a purpose-directed life. I loved being a member of a body with one mission, one commander, striving alongside one another to one goal.

But I was not born into the military. I was born a civilian outside the corps. Being a civilian was being on the outside. I was not a member of anything, I had no mission. I walked sloppy, I dressed sloppy, I stood with my hands in my pockets and had stubble on my chin. I was just a civilian.

I had to join the military to be a part of it, and I had to transform my mind out of the pattern of the civilian world and develop what we actually called a "military mind."

I remember one Saturday at my first duty station I was in civilian clothes walking up to a bus stop. An older gentleman already standing there had observed me approach. He nodded to me and said, "You're in the service, aren't you, son?"

I said, "Yes, sir. Could you tell by my haircut?"

He said, "No, I could tell by the way you walk."

I didn't even walk like a civilian anymore, and it was noticeable.

Being a sinner is like being a civilian. Being a sinner is not being in any group. We are all born naked, helpless, aimless, and alone. But we are all offered membership into a Body with one mission, one commander, striving alongside one another to one goal.

alexiscurious · Jul 22, 2014

oi_antz said:
Alex, could you please explain to me why you are sure it is not your sin that keeps Him away?

RdKirk and I have already established there has been a separation that has always existed. The relationship between God and I was broken before I ever committed my first sin.

oi_antz · Jul 22, 2014

alexiscurious said:
RdKirk and I have already established there has been a separation that has always existed. The relationship between God and I was broken before I ever committed my first sin.

When did that happen? I have found in Genesis 4:3-7 that The Lord was still very accessible, and involved with Adam and Eve's family. Does that fit with or challenge your beliefs about this?

Emmy · Jul 23, 2014

Dear alexiscurious. You could blame hereditary, alex. All who came after Adam and Eve, were from the same genealogical linage, we are all prone to
SINNING AND LYING. I say this with love, alex. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Angelquill · Jul 23, 2014

Hello, Alex.

alexiscurious said:
Hello Christian Forums,

The question on my mind has been bothering me for a while now. I would appreciate as many replies and thoughts on this as possible.

MY QUESTION:
How was I born into this crooked and corrupt life apart from my creator? Whenever I ask myself this question I am directed to Romans 5:12. This verse takes me to the story of the first two humans in existence. I realize their stupidity, but why should their decision affect me in any way? Was I consulted before they picked a fruit off a tree? Was I secretly involved in their defiance and disobedience? How in the world am I supposed to accept the punishment for a decision that was not mine to make? How did you and I get tangled up in this mess to begin with?

You have free will, don't you? You can choose not to sin...however, we both know better, don't we?
You are not "punished" for someone else's sin, but for your own. You, just like me, and every other human being ever concieved, have sinned.

From what I understand, God originally planned humanity to be perfect and to live with him in harmony forever. How was the life God destined for me and you altered because of a careless decision someone else made? Romans 3:23 says because one man sinned we all fall short of the glory of God. When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?

I'm not sure where the idea comes from that God intended for us to be perfect. Surely God knew, when He gave us free will, that we would choose to follow our own will instead of His? Thus, we would sin.
If you take the Adam and Eve story as literal, you understand that they chose to disobey...if they had been "perfect" they would not given in to temptation. However, the serpent only had to nudge them a little, and the next thing you know, they were chomping on the forbidden fruit.

Oh, and the angels, also, have free will. They choose to remain faithful to God. That is the difference.

So why is it I'm sitting here now, in this incomplete state, where I have to reconcile with my creator before the end of my life or else I will be in eternal damnation? Why couldn't I live the blissful and worry-free life God intended for me to have?

You are here to learn how to live that blissful and worry-free life, and not just for a few years, but through all eternity. All you need to do is obey the gospel.

Thanks,
Alex

agua · Jul 24, 2014

alexiscurious said:
This broken relationship, that happened before my existence, requires my entire existence to repair. So I should willingly dedicate my entire life to a Creator that wouldn't spend one single second of his life with me?

Is this what you are instructing me to do?

Do appreciate being able to live ?

Angelquill · Jul 24, 2014

Darling, among the ranks of Christianity, there is some disagreement about the Genesis story of Adam and Eve.
Was it actually a blow-by-blow account of the fall of mankind...or was it more of a parable? Nobody can know for sure, because it all happened so long ago. All we can do is have faith.
What matters is where we are now, right?
The fact is, from the moment you were born, you were a selfish, self-centered, greedy little brat, completely concerned with your own needs and desires...just like every other mother's child ever born in this world. As you grew, you learned how to get along with others, and maybe even developed some compassion, right? You think of yourself as a "good person"...just like every other mother's child ever born in this world.
You can blame it on Adam and Eve if you want to, but the fact is that, at this point in time, you have dug your own hole, my friend. The Adam and Eve story may not even be true, so stop hiding behind their aprons. Fig leaves are really uncomfortable anyway. Stand up and acknowledge your own sin, fahevvinsakes.

You sound like the seven year old whose Mom told him not to touch that birthday cake on the table and then blamed her for putting it where he could reach it when he got caught digging into it.
Face it, you have sinned. Now stop trying to blame someone else, stand up like a man do what is necessary to make it right.

Once again, I find it very sad that you have gotten close enough to know Jesus and realize what a fantastic Person He is....and yet you are willing to pass Him by because you do not approve of the behavior of His followers.
Honey, you are not responsible for how those Christians behave. They are also sinners.
You were born into a fallen world. Had you never sinned, you would not be facing punishment...but as it is, you have sinned, and you deserve punishment.
As we all do.

We all deserve justice...but Jesus offers us mercy.
It's a limited offer, so, please, hurry. Your Father is not willing that you should perish, He wants you to repent and come to Him for mercy and strength.
Please, do not choose death, when God is holding out to you the gift of eternal life!!
Please, please, please...choose life!!!

TheyCallMeDavid · Jul 25, 2014

alexiscurious said:
Hello Christian Forums,

The question on my mind has been bothering me for a while now. I would appreciate as many replies and thoughts on this as possible.

MY QUESTION:
How was I born into this crooked and corrupt life apart from my creator? Whenever I ask myself this question I am directed to Romans 5:12. This verse takes me to the story of the first two humans in existence. I realize their stupidity, but why should their decision affect me in any way? Was I consulted before they picked a fruit off a tree? Was I secretly involved in their defiance and disobedience? How in the world am I supposed to accept the punishment for a decision that was not mine to make? How did you and I get tangled up in this mess to begin with?

From what I understand, God originally planned humanity to be perfect and to live with him in harmony forever. How was the life God destined for me and you altered because of a careless decision someone else made? Romans 3:23 says because one man sinned we all fall short of the glory of God. When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?

So why is it I'm sitting here now, in this incomplete state, where I have to reconcile with my creator before the end of my life or else I will be in eternal damnation? Why couldn't I live the blissful and worry-free life God intended for me to have?

Thanks,
Alex

Hi Alex. I determine real honesty and a seeking spirit in you so ill answer your questions because you are sincere.

1. Apart from Adam and Eve, you like all of us....have broken the Moral Law of the Creator...that is... we have all gone our own way in this life being our own authority so we can get often immoral pleasure, independence to our own way, and shunning the Creator who loves us tremendously. Think of the times you have lied, cheated, swore, used Gods name in vain, looked down upon a minority, done something immoral and unethical , and have lived for self even if it meant using others . This is just the tip of the iceberg. God is infinitely holy and righteous and we cannot be reconciled to him in our current spiritual state. It takes a bridge ...and that bridge is Jesus the son of God stepping in to reconcile us back to God . Once we receive Jesus, then the very real power of God goes to work in us so we don't continue to live in the immoral squalor we have become used to.

2. People who wind up in eternal hell, are those who made their own choice to snub God all their life . What could be worse than doing that all of ones life ?

3. We are all put into this corrupt immoral World but God is still a PART of our reality and hasn't left us/it. We get to choose how we live our life , we get to choose if we want God more or not.

4. No long lasting happiness can occur without a personal relationship with the Creator, for, there is nothing bigger or more important than He. We are made for this relationship and when we try to substitute things or people or experiences for God....its like the smell of a new car that eventually wears off. God is meant for us, hes meant to be permanent in our lives, and no one ever has a regret for drawing close to God in this life. We are actually rewarded for wanting him and being proactive in seeking him. Its even his promise to us that he will reveal himself more to us if we take the first step.

Are you ready for a new chapter in your life ? It will require you to take the first step .

I used to be a professed Atheist. Contact me if you want my story on how I abandoned that for the truth of God and how my life is drastically different now than what it was before. Dave.

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